Author Topic: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?  (Read 11472 times)

Offline epb

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Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« on: October 26, 2016, 05:54:45 PM »
"It's a free ride when you've already paid
"it's the good advice that you just didn't take..." from "Ironic" by Alanis Morrissette

Getting my bike a week ago, even before, I've seen lots of advice about getting the chrome cylinders replaced, coated, fixed - something. A frequent warning is that it's a matter of when, not if. What strikes me as odd is the absence of fixed bikes on market. If everyone knows to do this, shouldn't at least some bikes on the market have been fixed? Not a single ad I saw mentioned it before I bought mine. I've Googled, I've run through Searchtempest, I've checked eBay and there doesn't seem to be a bike out there that's had this done. It's seems unlikely that no one's fixed a bike then sold it somewhere down the line- motorcyclists tend to be somewhat fickle.

So I'm asking - how many people actually worry about this to the point of taking action and spending money? It's starting to look like the Porsche IMS problem- far more people worry about it than suffer from it. Use the poll above, post your thoughts if you'd like. I'll say right now, I'm leaning against doing anything about mine - it seems most people are motoring along just fine.
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Offline Perazzimx14

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2016, 06:19:07 PM »
I have bought several Guzzi's w/ chrome cylinder still intact. I had one owner tell me he wanted to get the bike started before (was his dad's bike that sat dormant for 17 years) I came to look at it. I said no problem if you get it running my offer will 1/2 of what it is if you don't get it running.

This year alone I have put 3 Guzzi's on the market that had the chrome cylinder replaced.
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Offline Tom H

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2016, 06:19:43 PM »
When I bought my oldies, the only option was cast iron sleeve or replating. I ran my Eldo until the chrome wore away near the top of the cylinder, then went with nikosil (SP) as it was now available and the best option. My Ambo had the flaking chrome on one side when I bought it, it was stored near the ocean so the chrome took a beating. Found a cast iron lined cylinder and replaced the one that was bad. Ran it like that for years. Then went to the nikosil as well.

Tom
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Offline Gliderjohn

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2016, 06:20:25 PM »
My T-3 original cylinders started smoking a bit in the upper 50K range and was quite noticeable by 70K. Rebuilt the engine with low 70s miles. Chrome was peeling but was lucky with no bottom end damage. Replaced with nickisal or however it is spelled.
GliderJohn
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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2016, 06:20:25 PM »

Offline unclepete

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2016, 06:25:21 PM »
My T-3 looked rough when I found it , Needed lots of attention , but it did not need cylinders renewed . It came with Gilardoni cylinders . Was most likely done before previous owner who claimed to have had it for eight years .
So yes , some were done and later moved on  .

Offline Cam3512

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2016, 06:52:21 PM »
I bought my '71 Ambo without ever hearing it run.  I knew it had the original chrome cylinders.  It was never started until it had the Gilardoni cylinders installed.  Many sellers are not even aware of what could happen, bragging about all the work done to "restore " their bike without dealing with the jugs.

Pay now, or pay big later.
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Offline Markcarovilli

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2016, 07:27:56 PM »
 :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

And the beat goes on.........

Replaced mine without a lot of thought.

Mark

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2016, 07:28:21 PM »
I believe the chrome is only a problem if the bike has been sitting for a long time in the damp.
I know of several Eldorados running Chrome but they never sat for years,

The Nikasils were not available when I started restoring mine so I figured out how to install a filter between the pump and bearings but then they became available again so I went that route with no filter.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 07:31:31 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline jas67

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2016, 07:42:22 PM »
I have a brand new pair of Gilardoni nikasil cylinders on the shelf waiting to be installed on my newly acquired Eldo as soon as I get the exhaust nuts freed from the heads so I can get them freshened up.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 07:43:11 PM by jas67 »
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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2016, 08:53:54 PM »
I've replaced the cylinders on around 18 Guzzis now, every one had visible deterioration of the chrome bore. The worst had a large crescent shaped area of chrome missing, but even the "best" had what I call a "starry night" - light colored "stars" (the aluminum cylinder casting) showing through the darker colored chrome.

To paraphrase "Dirty Harry": "do you feel lucky?" Running chrome bores is a bit like playing "Russian Roulette" with your engine.

Have you actually checked to see what cylinders you have? Easy to find out by simply inserting a "pencil magnet" in through the sparkplug hole and touching it to the cylinder wall. No magnetic attraction: chrome, very slight: Nikasil, strong: iron liners. 
Charlie

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2016, 10:40:54 PM »
Ask anybody in the trade who has worked on Guzzis for years?

Charlie and I between us probably have close to seventy years, there are other tradesmen here as well as a lot of talented amateurs. Not ONE of them will say, "No Worries.Yer golden! Run 'em!".

Your choice of course but it would be a shame to trash a lovely old T3.

As to why people who are selling them have never done it? Simple, the people who have don't sell 'em! They are just too lovely!

Pete

Offline Arizona Wayne

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2016, 10:55:24 PM »
I bought a`71 civiiian Ambo. with only 13K miles on it from the same guy I bought my 1st Guzzi, a `81 CX100 that only had 6K miles on it.  The only reason he was selling the Ambo. was because he was leaving the state.  We rode it for 25 years and it never used any oil.   If the bike is ridden regularly the cylinders will be OK.  :azn:

Offline ITSec

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2016, 10:59:31 PM »

"It's a free ride when you've already paid
"it's the good advice that you just didn't take..." from "Ironic" by Alanis Morrissette


As a sometimes Canadian, I am ashamed to admit that Alanis gave a whole bunch of examples in that song of things that are actually not ironic. Coincidental, spoken of sardonically, even paradoxical - but very little irony.

And also as a sometimes Canadian, I am ashamed to admit to Celine Dion. At all. In any manner.  :evil:

Finally, replace the chrome. Start with the cylinders, then all that unnecessary stuff all over the bike. Chrome is evil.
ITSecurity
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oldbike54

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2016, 11:06:11 PM »
 At least Celine hasn't thrown eggs at het neighbors  :shocked:

 Dusty

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2016, 11:07:21 PM »
I did mine (2 V700's & 1 V750 Ambo) in cast iron sleeves. Customers got LA sleeves also till the plated stuff got popular. I have another V700 to do yet. 
You could keep an eye on it, but it won't end well. They mostly go if the motor sits. If it's been consistently ridden then keep going. It is your bike so do as you wish.
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Offline ITSec

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2016, 11:10:58 PM »
At least Celine hasn't thrown eggs at het neighbors  :shocked:

 Dusty

She lives here in Las Vegas, and her twins are still a bit young. I expect them to start being a problem in the next few years.

Stay off my lawn, you brats!
ITSecurity
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I am but mad north-northwest!
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oldbike54

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2016, 11:29:23 PM »
She lives here in Las Vegas, and her twins are still a bit young. I expect them to start being a problem in the next few years.

Stay off my lawn, you brats!

 We are counting on you to keep watch  :grin:

 Wow , JLP released 21 years ago  :thumb:

 Dusty

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2016, 11:30:22 PM »
I bought a`71 civiiian Ambo. with only 13K miles on it from the same guy I bought my 1st Guzzi, a `81 CX100 that only had 6K miles on it.  The only reason he was selling the Ambo. was because he was leaving the state.  We rode it for 25 years and it never used any oil.   If the bike is ridden regularly the cylinders will be OK.  :azn:

Define "ridden regularly". Even if that is 20 miles a day, for let's say 52 days a year (Sunday only - to church and back  :wink: ) it works out to 1040 miles a year. Times that by 40 years. How regularly has one been ridden if it only has 15k miles on it? Or 20k miles? 30k miles? It's done one heck of a lot of sitting unused...

My own '69 Ambo had 36k miles on it when I bought it in '97. The previous owner had put on a mere 3k miles in the 13 years he owned it. That means the original owner put 33K miles on it over 15 years, an average of 2200 miles a year.

It was "okay" for me too - until it wasn't. It ran well, didn't smoke, no funny noises, but wasn't especially powerful. On a trip down to Guzzis in the Blue Ridge following Joe Kenny and Pat Galbraith it became very apparent that it was just plain tired. It would barely maintain 45 mph on some of the hills on the Blue Ridge Parkway and would get so hot you could smell it.

When I got home, I pulled the heads and cylinders and discovered that a 3/4" crescent of chrome was missing from both cylinders and the top piston rings had broken into 3 pieces. This was at 54k miles. Where did the chrome go? I pulled a rod cap and checked the bearing shells and journal - no embedded flakes, no scoring. I had been changing the oil every 1k miles, so I'm guessing that helped. I reassembled it with new Gilardoni cylinders and rebuilt heads. Still running strong at 109k miles - no abnormal noises. Definitely dodged a bullet, I wouldn't do that again.

epb: although you don't mention the year or model, I see by your posts on ADV Rider that you bought a '75 850-T. That may or may not have an oil filter, worth it to find out. A filter will help keep the engine damage from chrome flakes to a minimum, but that doesn't mean you can simply ignore the problem altogether.

 
Charlie

Online ray bear

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2016, 01:01:46 AM »
My eldo has cast bores but my V7 sport had chrome and I rode it for a long time before the curiosity got the better of me and I removed a cylinder head just in time to see the aluminium just starting to show. A new set of gilardonis mains and big ends later and I have a nice sport that will be a keeper.. I caught it just in time , as they say its not will they its when??. Here in Australia a set of jugs and bearings and gaskets and a couple of other minor things  a little over $1200 ..Cheap insurance..  Bill
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Offline GUZZI SVT

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2016, 08:17:31 AM »
I put chrome back into my Ambassador 30 years and 20,000 miles ago after one the cast iron cylinders was destroyed by a broken wrist pin cir clip. They had 70,000 on them.
She's still running strong!
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Offline guzziart

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2016, 08:35:06 AM »
I replaced them.  The original owner told me that he had checked the cylinders and they were OK but during a routine head re-torque & valve clearance PM, I noticed shiny particles in the rocker area....I guess he didn't know what he was looking at or talking about.  The original cylinders were flaking at 25K but no damage was evident in the top or bottom ends of the engine.  The sludge trap was half full of debris, I'm glad I spent the extra time to check it.  I had the heads reconditioned and the crank polished & chamfered per Guzziology. 

Should I buy another chrome bore Guzzi, I would count on doing an engine teardown to replace the cylinders & service the crank....hopefully factoring that scope of work into the purchase price.  On the other hand, I've heard of folks replacing the 850 chrome bore engine with a used fully serviceable 1000cc engine for a lot less expense and to hell with originality.

Good luck!
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Offline m13

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2016, 08:36:06 AM »
Let me add my 2 cents..They DO NOT have to sit for years, be stored in humidity etc to flake...They were defective from the git- go, I believe..I bought a NEW  Eldorado in 1973. I maintained it well and drove it year round daily to work and long trips on the weekends, LOVED it. Then around 22,000 miles, past any warranty, the chrome flaked on both cylinders. Pre- internet days. No available replacement parts inventories, few knowledgable dealers and I waited for 6 months for replacement CHROME cylinders, pistons and pins/rings from Guzzi..I was too dumb to consider "where did the flakes go?" and soon the engine was sounding like an air hammer rattling. Drove it that way to Key west and back to D.C. on a month long camping trip then Traded it in on a NEW 1975 Goldwing. Thought I was DONE forever with Guzzi. Lesson learned? Get rid of the chrome BEFORE it flakes. 
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Offline Rusnak_322

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2016, 11:23:23 AM »
I replaced them.  The original owner told me that he had checked the cylinders and they were OK but during a routine head re-torque & valve clearance PM, I noticed shiny particles in the rocker area....I guess he didn't know what he was looking at or talking about.  The original cylinders were flaking at 25K but no damage was evident in the top or bottom ends of the engine.  The sludge trap was half full of debris, I'm glad I spent the extra time to check it.  I had the heads reconditioned and the crank polished & chamfered per Guzziology. 

Should I buy another chrome bore Guzzi, I would count on doing an engine teardown to replace the cylinders & service the crank....hopefully factoring that scope of work into the purchase price.  On the other hand, I've heard of folks replacing the 850 chrome bore engine with a used fully serviceable 1000cc engine for a lot less expense and to hell with originality.

Good luck!


What 1000cc motors can you swap into a 850T? (what model and years?) Can you just put the pistons and barrels? Or are the rods and heads different as well?

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Offline jas67

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2016, 02:36:07 PM »
Doesn

What 1000cc motors can you swap into a 850T? (what model and years?) Can you just put the pistons and barrels? Or are the rods and heads different as well?



Doen't the CX100 and SP  have round barrels?   They would at least look correct on a Loop (or 850T/T3).
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Offline swooshdave

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2016, 02:46:04 PM »
Let me add my 2 cents..They DO NOT have to sit for years, be stored in humidity etc to flake...They were defective from the git- go, I believe..I bought a NEW  Eldorado in 1973. I maintained it well and drove it year round daily to work and long trips on the weekends, LOVED it. Then around 22,000 miles, past any warranty, the chrome flaked on both cylinders. Pre- internet days. No available replacement parts inventories, few knowledgable dealers and I waited for 6 months for replacement CHROME cylinders, pistons and pins/rings from Guzzi..I was too dumb to consider "where did the flakes go?" and soon the engine was sounding like an air hammer rattling. Drove it that way to Key west and back to D.C. on a month long camping trip then Traded it in on a NEW 1975 Goldwing. Thought I was DONE forever with Guzzi. Lesson learned? Get rid of the chrome BEFORE it flakes.

Wasn't the bike used in a high humidity area, perhaps close to salt water?
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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2016, 03:08:56 PM »
Doesn't the CX100 and SP  have round barrels?   They would at least look correct on a Loop (or 850T/T3).

Convert, CX100, SP, G5 all swap into a T easily. Square-fins will too.

If you used the 88 mm "barrels", the "spigots" would likely need to be turned down slightly or the case opening bored larger. Rods are the same, heads are different (exhaust mounting differences - threaded nut vs. two studs). You might also need to use T3 and later rockers (lifters and pushrods) for pushrod-to-tunnel clearance, but still might need to open up the tunnels some.

Better to use the entire engine especially if the 850-T is an early one without an oil filter.
Charlie

Offline m13

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2016, 05:02:31 PM »
Wasn't the bike used in a high humidity area, perhaps close to salt water?

Well, Washington D.C. is pretty humid in the summertime, and they do salt the roads when it sometimes snows? Not sure if you are kidding? But the bike was easy ridden almost continuously till she crapped the cylinders. Just saying, mine wasn't a un-oiled barn sitter and then busted flakes years later on start up. Mine flaked under normal use. So my NEXT Chrome bore loop is getting Nikasil.
Leonardtown, Maryland
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'60-something?(who really knows) Chang jiang 750

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PORS0y5exgY
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Offline swooshdave

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2016, 10:38:51 PM »
Well, Washington D.C. is pretty humid in the summertime, and they do salt the roads when it sometimes snows? Not sure if you are kidding? But the bike was easy ridden almost continuously till she crapped the cylinders. Just saying, mine wasn't a un-oiled barn sitter and then busted flakes years later on start up. Mine flaked under normal use. So my NEXT Chrome bore loop is getting Nikasil.

Just wondering.

It's possible the chrome lining failed for the same reasons the Nikasil failed for Jaguar, too much sulphur in the fuel.
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Offline Arizona Wayne

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2016, 11:09:07 PM »
Define "ridden regularly". Even if that is 20 miles a day, for let's say 52 days a year (Sunday only - to church and back  :wink: ) it works out to 1040 miles a year. Times that by 40 years. How regularly has one been ridden if it only has 15k miles on it? Or 20k miles? 30k miles? It's done


I rode it in norCal which is a dry climate and changed the Walmart dino oil every1,500 miles.  Part of the time I had Slick 50 in it which really quieted the valve train down.  Ran a sidecar on it most the time.  Maybe the fact norCal is low in humidity helped.   None of my bikes/cars rust here out west. Forget how many thousands of miles I rode it  Sold it for more than I paid for it. :thumb:
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 02:00:24 AM by Arizona Wayne »

Offline wirespokes

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Re: Chrome cylinders - replaced or not?
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2016, 01:16:18 AM »
Have you actually checked to see what cylinders you have? Easy to find out by simply inserting a "pencil magnet" in through the sparkplug hole and touching it to the cylinder wall. No magnetic attraction: chrome, very slight: Nikasil, strong: iron liners.

Shouldn't it be:
No attraction = nikasil
slight = chrome
strong = iron

I think you guys are convincing me to change my cylinders sooner than later. Mine's a 77 850 T3, quiet and runs strong. Takes maybe a quart in 3K miles. Had 39K on the clock when purchased this summer, now at 44K

One of the valve cover screws is sheared so need to pull the head to fix that. It's work hardened and a drill bit won't touch it. I've got a set of 850 Gilardonis waiting in the wings, so perhaps this is the time. Is there any helpful advice doing this job or is it as straight-forward and simple as it would appear? I've learned, having done BMWs for a lot of years, not to assume anything. It seems like it should be a simple job, but I'd like to know any tricks or pit falls to watch for.

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