Wildguzzi.com
General Category => Bike Builds, Rebuilds And Restorations Only => Topic started by: shiskowd on August 20, 2019, 10:10:03 PM
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This thread is a continuation of https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=102337.0 (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=102337.0) where I was considering stepping into the water with a purchase of a 75 850T with questionable background. Being new to Guzzi restoration Ill need the wisdom of the forum members to guide me along! To that end Ill post sufficient details and pics to prompt feedback/suggestions.
Related photo album can be found here > https://www.flickr.com/photos/156837828@N02/albums/72157710433825932 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156837828@N02/albums/72157710433825932)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48581508136_a3500d61af_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h1YVPf)20190819-DPS02779 (https://flic.kr/p/2h1YVPf)
Background
The bike has a questionable history as the previous owner who had done some work on the bike wasnt in the picture. I purchased from a bike performance bike shop owner who had stored the bike for some time (10+ years) and had little knowledge of the bikes history. The bike came with a few boxes of parts, manuals, Guzziology (1996 edition) and a series of parts invoices & work orders. Odometer shows 44,000 miles. Following is a summary of what I was able to knit together.
1998_03 The previous owner acquires the bike.
1998_05 Parts invoice - clutch cable, tach cable, sump gasket
1998_05 Purchased used rear fender & tail light
1998_07 Metal Finishing shop work order to strip and polish 3 motorcycle parts (?)
1998_11 Parts invoice - exhaust valve (1), timing chain, fuel taps (2), footpeg rubber (all), front fork dampers, fork gaiters, splined hub (2mm splines)
2000_01 Work order to recover seat
2001_05 Work order - resleeve cylinders with iron liners, new rings and related gaskets
2001_06 Parts invoice - base gaskets
In addition to the above, the bike has a replacement 12mm Brembo master brake cylinder, replacement caliper (same as stock), steel braided hose and new clutch perch w/ lever, all installed. All of these parts look brand new, no wear or road grime of any sort. New right & left switch gear - the right side was installed and wired, left side (horn, turn signals) was in a box (original left switch gear removed). Also new in a box is a Dyna III ignition kit (date code 0240?) w/ new coils and new ignition switch. The tires look new, no wear with a date code that suggests 1997 (certainly pre 2000). The oil in the sump is very clean. There was a remnant of fuel in the tank - smells like turpentine. No fuel lines exist, carbs must have been drained as the bowels/floats are very clean.
Given these bits of information, I theorize the bike hasnt run since shortly after the cylinders were resleeved (2001). There are some hand written notes about ignition timing tucked inside the manuals, perhaps owner experienced some trouble with the old points ignition system prompting the purchase of the electronic kit but never installed. The switch gear was only ½ completed, probably at the same time the front brake master cylinder & caliper was installed. Bike wouldnt be safely operated without the left switch gear completed.
Today I inspected the wiring for the right switch gear, installed a battery and traced voltage, confirming it was where it needed to be. Turned on the ignition and thumbed the starter button - starter caught right away and spun the engine!
Quickly put on a compression tester - 120 psi on right side, 112 psi on left (this at 3,300 ft elevation). Needs a leak down test, may wait until the engine is on the bench
From what I learned from my first post, next to dealing with the original chrome cylinders, the rubber block timing chain tensioner needs to be upgraded. No reference to a different or OEM tensioner in the parts that were purchased, even though there was a new timing chain purchased in 1998. This bike is an early 850T, no oil filter.
Next Step??
Given all this
my newby formulated plan is to put the engine on a bench, look at the timing chain tensioner, ensure/clean out any rubber bits from oil hose/passages, adjust valves, perform leak down test. Additionally, starter/alternator service with installation of the new ignition and related wiring clean up. I can take the engine apart further - looking for your suggestions!
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I agree with Les. As long as you plan to have the engine on the bench for inspection, I would tear it down and have a look at the condition of the crank and journals.
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Beginning to slowly strip off bits, cataloging what needs to be repaired and what parts are needed.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48621150566_b98d5610a1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h5u78q)
Today I drained the engine and transmission. Engine oil was moderately clean but THERE WAS NO OIL IN THE TRANSMISSION! The transmission case threads for the drain plug are stripped and could barely hold the plug. I'm really hoping the oil disappeared over the years this thing sat in storage... Thinking a Timesert will be the answer to repair the case. Judging by the depth of that plug there isn't too much material to work with. Guzziology suggests this is a common problem and needs to be addressed for the level inspection plug threads as well.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48621248336_16d2895922_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h5uBc7)
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The disassembly has proceeded well enough and is complete. Along the way learned a great deal about the bike through taking in apart and sifting through various WG forums and the plethora of resources on the web.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48651137951_8341dc7f41_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h88Nki)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48658694008_be235bf581_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h8Nwu9)
There are some obvious mounts for the coils and rectifier that were brazed on by a previous owner. The brazing is awful, the rectifier brackets not even square to the frame. I suspect the original brackets had failed requiring the brazing?? Plan is to grind these off prior to powder coating. I have a set of Dyna coils and considering a modern rectifier/regulator that I need to figure out a mounting solution and weld on some tabs.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48639900447_6b52746830_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h79cPe)
The pieces that mate the engine and transmission together look fine on initial inspection (odometer indicates 46,000 miles).
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48651137896_542dc3d3ac_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h88Njm)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48651281407_797e211ed4_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h89wYF)
Before the weekend I was only able to pull the heads and cylinders. Waiting for a few tools to disassemble further.
The rocker arm pin oil passages certainly had a far amount of what I believe has been described as small rubber bits from the suspected timing chain rubber tensioner. Not enough bits to starve the oil entirely as the pin and related surfaces appear fine. Do all the rings look like this under the rocker arm support?? I havent taken the front cover off the engine to see what remains of the timing chain tensioner or if it was retrofitted.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48655976808_d2a0ed2896_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h8yAKS)
The bike had iron sleeves installed in the cylinders about 18 years ago but had run very little since that occurred (from what I could gather on the bikes history). The cylinder bores are in very good shape, some cross hatching from a hone is still visible in the cylinders. Pictures dont capture this well but I included one below. There are no visible vertical marks at all in both cylinders. Similarly, both pistons are very clean with no signs of wear. Ill measure ring end gap at some point.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48655976648_e3ee5516fb_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h8yAH7)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48656331376_3554940eee_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h8Aqa7)
The cam tappers/lifters are in great shape as well. I was fearing worse with an engine with this many miles with chrome cylinders for most of those miles (46K). Ill post more when I disassemble further.
Any comments or suggestions welcome!!
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The rocker arm pin oil passages certainly had a far amount of what I believe has been described as small rubber bits from the suspected timing chain rubber tensioner. Not enough bits to starve the oil entirely as the pin and related surfaces appear fine. Do all the rings look like this under the rocker arm support?? I havent taken the front cover off the engine to see what remains of the timing chain tensioner or if it was retrofitted.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48655976808_d2a0ed2896_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h8yAKS)
Any comments or suggestions welcome!!
Good going so far! Nothing alarming as of yet. There should be o-rings under the rocker supports, not whatever that is! That is a bodge job of some sort, but if that is the worst of it things are going well.
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I would definitely not recommend reusing those Sureflex clutch plates. In my experience, they tend to be "grabby" and wear the clutch hub quickly.
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My engine tools arrived this week from MG Cycle, spent a afternoon in the garage exploring...
I know little about the bikes history other than a few part/work order receipts I found tucked in a Guzziology manual (1st edition) that came with the bike. Iron cylinder liners were installed in 2001, timing chain was purchased in 1998. The tires on the bike have pre-2000 vintage date codes and show almost no wear suggesting the bike ran very little since the iron sleeves were installed. However, I was concerned about the effects of chrome cylinder bits circulating in a non-oil filter engine in all the years previous to the cylinder work.
Fair amount of sludge settled on the sump. The engine hasn't run for 12+ years so it had plenty of time to settle.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48695682073_989e40e710_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc56Kp)
Timing cover off revealing the infamous rubber timing block chain tensioner. Obvious the the crankshaft sprocket nut was removed and installed with a chisel, likely for the timing chain replacement.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696026031_bbf247d2c9_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc6RZH)
The little wear shown on the rubber block would suggest minimal running time since the new piece was installed. Receipt suggests the timing chain was changed out in 1998, likely the tension block at the same time.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696194687_8cec7d5208_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc7J8z)
The bolt locking tabs for the tensioner were botched during the replacement. The locking tabs for the front/small crank bearing look like they've never been moved.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696025981_af22fa46bc_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc6RYR)
Pistons show very little wear, certainly no scoring.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696026891_7050d87745_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc6Sfx)
Need to measure the ring end gap and have someone with the right tools to measure the piston clearances.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696026841_535874dce3_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc6SeF)
The con rod half bearing shells look like this. I'm new at this but I would say they're lightly scored.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48695682773_cae66e2ccb_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc56Xt)
The MG Cycle big bearing tool worked like a charm - bearing began to move with only light pressure.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696194337_469e725756_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc7J2x)
The crankshaft journals are in great shape, no scoring at all (to my newbie eyes).
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696026586_506328e431_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc6Sah)
The big and small end bearing surfaces are fine, no visible scoring. There are no grooves that you can feel running a finger nail across the surfaces.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696195077_10fbfd2496_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc7Jfi)
The plug on the sludge trap was surprisingly easy to remove. The aluminum plug had only very light punches that weren't at all as effective as Guzziology led me to believe - it's completely reusable. You can see the trap is maybe 1/3 full. The stuff inside is a firm paste that readily sticks to a magnet.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696195027_f05c984921_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc7Jer)
The camshaft is also in fine condition. The bearing surfaces are not scored and are smooth. Lobe faces similar, the tappet/lifters were in nice shape as well.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696194827_da2570f940_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc7JaZ)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48695682408_c80092fb23_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc56Rb)
The big end bearing surface doesn't have any obvious scoring - there are very fine grooves (scratches?) in places that are not deep at all. Not sure if this is a concern. I'll have my crankshaft guy measure the bearing clearances. All of the measurements with my cheap micrometer suggest the big/small bearings and rod journals are standard size.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696178781_b9609105be_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc7Dpk)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696346962_c00d4815c1_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc8vp1)
Oil pump looked good, no visible marks in the aluminum housing and the 'gears' have no chipping or other marks.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696194622_90bf5d7546_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc7J7s)
The clutch disks had a fair amount of oil on them - I would assume this is not a good thing.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48697150356_8fdf19facd_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hccCdC)
Looks like the main big seal or one of the gaskets in the bell housing was leaking.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48696026171_cd98fd6af6_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hc6S38)
I'm going to take the bits to Jim Carey's (canuck750) crank guy in Edmonton for a going over and to see if new bearings are in order and what size. When Jim gets back from his trip to Europe he offered his vapor blasting services.
As always, comments and suggestions are welcome :thumb:!!
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Looking good! Nice to have iron cylinders and the bored look good.
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Quite encouraging so far. Nothing too far amiss. I am going to guess that the crank and bearings are within spec. The light scoring is normal especially without an oil filter.
The clutch plates should be replaced. Using brake cleaner will not be as effective as buying new plates, and not healthy to breathe.
Good going!
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Like I wrote above, I wouldn't reuse those Sureflex clutch plates, even if they weren't oil soaked.
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Like I wrote above, I wouldn't reuse those Sureflex clutch plates, even if they weren't oil soaked.
Which clutch plates would you suggest? Is it a good idea to upgrade to the 4mm spline??
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Which clutch plates would you suggest? Is it a good idea to upgrade to the 4mm spline??
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=1165
Yes, it is a good idea.
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I was cleaning off the old gasket from the oil screen pickup assembly and noticed a crack on the mounting flange. Concern wouldn't be a leak but having the part fail, interrupting oil flow and fall into the spinning crank. Seeking a used part of perhaps an oil pan with a filter and perform the required case mods with a new front crank bearing.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48714802876_51ca3dfa65_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hdL6Gq)
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I certainly would not install that.
Here is the whole 9 yards off of a 850T on eBay for $49 plus shipping.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-MOTO-GUZZI-850-T-850T-Oil-Pump-With-Pick-Up-Screen/362421421029?hash=item54620003e5:g:up8AAOSwtE9bgJrw:sc:USPSPriority!61107!US!-1
Here is just the piece that you need. I am not sure if it is exactly the same as 850T without some research. Maybe Charlie will chime in. Just $17
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-69-Moto-Guzzi-V7-700-V700-OEM-OIL-PUMP-PICK-UP-WITH-SCREEN/312432111435?hash=item48be67af4b:g:jLIAAOSwUWtcQLU3
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Grab the 2nd one for $17 and free shipping. I talked to Charlie, he says all non oil filter models use the same pick up housing.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-69-Moto-Guzzi-V7-700-V700-OEM-OIL-PUMP-PICK-UP-WITH-SCREEN/312432111435?hash=item48be67af4b:g:jLIAAOSwUWtcQLU3
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2nd Ebay part ordered!
Thanks Dave & Charlie :azn:
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Gotta love WG.. :smiley:
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Another day, another part to source/purchase...
I posted here my concerns about the iron sleeves that were installed in the cylinders > https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=102720.0 (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=102720.0) and my decision to purchase a Gilardoni cylinder kit. I didn't need the kit just yet but Rick at MG Cycle suggested that I pick up a kit somewhere (they were out of stock) as he felt those may be hard to come by as the manufacture seems not as interested to produce them any longer due to dwindling demand (how many chrome cylinders are out there?). I have a kit on the way from Scrambler Cycle.
As I continue to clean up the engine pieces prior to vapor blasting I noticed the cracked oil pickup (see earlier post) and just this weekend I cleaned up the heads and noticed a bunch of fins missing off the left head. Clearly something only a newb like me could have missed by now, having wrenched the part off earlier and taken a bunch of photo's....
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48747039187_462a266ffb_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hgBjqT)
While I'm sure the engine would be just fine without those few fins for cooling (this is Canada after all) my OCD kicked in and I found a cheap, clean looking head on Ebay ($100US + shipping to Canada $$$) here > https://www.ebay.ca/itm/192975636353 (https://www.ebay.ca/itm/192975636353).
Engine ready for Jim's (canuck750) vapor blasting services when he returns from his excellent European riding adventure. Crank inspection and head work (valves, springs, guides, etc.) will follow.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48747039267_37fda7e7f1_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hgBjsg)
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Too bad about the cylinders, but glad you found a set.
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Thanks LesP - learning something here. I'll check out that FB site once I get registered.
I haven't bought any valves, springs, guides yet - are the Kibblewhite bits worth the premium?
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Another day, another part to source/purchase...
I posted here my concerns about the iron sleeves that were installed in the cylinders > https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=102720.0 (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=102720.0) and my decision to purchase a Gilardoni cylinder kit. I didn't need the kit just yet but Rick at MG Cycle suggested that I pick up a kit somewhere (they were out of stock) as he felt those may be hard to come by as the manufacture seems not as interested to produce them any longer due to dwindling demand (how many chrome cylinders are out there?). I have a kit on the way from Scrambler Cycle.
Good thing you got the Gilardonis when you did. Scrambler is now sold out.
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On to the transmission...
My only insight into the health of the transmission was it seemed to shift through all 5 gears on the center stand. The drain plug is stripped and needs a time-sert or helicoil so at the minimum I need to pull it apart for that repair. Also want the case vapor blasted to match the engine which require full disassembly.
John Nobles transmission guide is extremely useful for a newb > http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/gearbox-rebuilding-john-noble.pdf (http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/gearbox-rebuilding-john-noble.pdf)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48767604961_a132df354f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hiqHVc)
Bearings all run smoothly. No scoring on any of the race surfaces.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48767807952_e5a6a4e835_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hirLg3)
The output shaft took some pretty solid wacks with a rubber mallet to slip off the bearing. The input shaft won't move at all with similar wacking. I turned the case upside down, blocking it so shaft had room to drop. Wouldn't move off the bearing and I didn't want to damage the bearing in the process. Is it necessary to pull/replace the bearings in the case for a thorough vapor blasting on the outside of the case? I really don't want to drive out and replace the bearings... :huh:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48767807932_b3b7f710d1_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hirLfG)
The forks and shift dogs show very little wear.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48767267083_ffe6d3736d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hioZtH)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48767807842_86f25f1b1b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hirLe9)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48767266993_9fa767a7cd_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hioZsa)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48767807742_c2095f68b6_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hirLcq)
To my newby eyes things look pretty good, no noticeable wearing. If it wasn't for vapor blasting I could install a new seal/gasket kit and tighten it all up (after repairing the drain hole threads). Anything else I should look at/consider while I have it apart??
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You can blast it with the bearings left in, put the rear cover back on with a gasket, and make some round covers out of plywood for the input, output, neutral, and gear holes, stick some M10 bolts in the Breather, shift pawl and detant holes with washers and put the fill plug back in with a washer.
Then be studious with the cleaning, multiple times with hot soapy water and I like to flush out the bearings with brake cleaner a few times prior to putting oil back over them. If your good with the sealing there won't be any grit in there anyway, it will just help you sleep better....
That being said, some of the bearings are very cheep, I normally get the input and output bearings for under $15aud each, the needle roller and the 3 piece barrel bearing are somewhat more expensive......
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It's really not that hard to remove the bearings - heat the case and they usually fall out. Same with reinstalling - chill the bearing, heat the case, they drop right in.
Re: not being able to remove the input shaft: did you remove the two o-rings on the outside?
I'd definitely recommend replacing the shift return spring.
That being said, some of the bearings are very cheep, I normally get the input and output bearings for under $15aud each, the needle roller and the 3 piece barrel bearing are somewhat more expensive......
I wish we could find the (28 ball, metal cage) bearings here that inexpensively.
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To Charlie's point I couldn't find an o-ring, only a sealant of some sort mixed in with what may have been an o-ring at one time. I dug as much of it out as I was able and with renewed confidence I took a slightly larger soft hammer and managed to drive the input shaft free of the bearing. There was one o-ring that was intact that I can see now that the shaft is off.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48773262907_d1291221a8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hiVHPZ)
I'll start hunting around for the 6 bearings that are needed - best to take them out and thoroughly clean/blast as suggested.
With the 20 year old tires removed off the rims I've reaching the end of the disassembly process for the entire bike. Only the wheels and rear drive remain intact - undecided if I should strip the rear drive. The seals are good, pinion gear looks fine as does the bearings in the pinion housing. I imagine you could vapor blast the rear drive with a cover where the pinion gear sits.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48773038216_8f5e776ed8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hiUz31)
The hubs and rims need some cleaning. There are some good suggestions in other posts I've found on cleaning these up - not adverse to stripping and re-lacing the wheels which looks like may be necessary. Vapor blasting the hubs may in the end be the most efficient process.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48772692153_887fc92e6e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hiSNap)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48773037911_16c820eedf_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hiUyWK)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48773038126_4bbbfa948a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hiUz1s)
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Before I did anything to the fuel tank I wanted to test it's integrity. The tank had some fuel in it when I purchased it, likely decades old. I drained the old fuel (looked like kerosene) and poured in 5 liters of fresh premium. For the next month I would give it a good swish every few days and position the tank so the fuel was resting in different parts of the tank. No leaks or sweating that I could see. The flaking paint around the fuel taps was likely due to the petcocks connections sweating over the years.
I think it's safe to strip the old paint and get it refinished.
How does one remove the tank emblems? Do they snap in place? They're in pretty good condition and I don't want to damage them - maybe it's unavoidable.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48775682672_f96c57f63a_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48775495351_ed1306f407_c.jpg)
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This Old Tractor knows all! :grin:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_tonti_tank_badge_removal.html
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This Old Tractor knows all! :grin:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_tonti_tank_badge_removal.html
Ya, I should have know to look there! Thanks.
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Put the wheels on a truing stand tonight. The back wheel runs pretty true, no radial run out at all. Condition of the rim is decent and should clean up good enough with a complete disassembly.
The front wheel must have taken a hard pot hole or curb somewhere in the past. There is a 3mm radial flat spot and a slight twist (one side isn't run out as much). There are a few other spots where there is a lesser bump and wobble. The rim itself isn't too scratched up and could be cleaned up to look good. Not sure if I'd be able to straighten it out though. Where does one find replacement Borrani wheels on this side of the pound?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48796566253_a9cc341b5e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hkZa6P)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48796924451_3191c5194e_c.jpg)[/url (https://flic.kr/p/2hm1ZzD)
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You could always have it straightened by Woody's: https://woodyswheelworks.com/pages/alloy-motorcycle-wheel-repair
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You could always have it straightened by Woody's: https://woodyswheelworks.com/pages/alloy-motorcycle-wheel-repair
Thanks for the suggestion. I've used Woody's for my big enduro bike wheels with great success. The cost of shipping from Canada can make this less attractive compared to new rims - I'll check out the shipping cost that way.
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Thanks for the suggestion. I've used Woody's for my big enduro bike wheels with great success. The cost of shipping from Canada can make this less attractive compared to new rims - I'll check out the shipping cost that way.
New genuine Borranis can be very expensive. Buchanan's lists them for $315.
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Ouch - I saw that$$. I got an inquiry with Woody's to see what they think.
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Took apart the cush drive today. I struggled to sort out how to remove the wheel bearings. This Old Tractor to the rescue again (post by Charlie)!! http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_tonti_wheel_assembly.html (http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_tonti_wheel_assembly.html)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48802019957_e59272212a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hmt7ic)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48801876011_c9dd10b3b5_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hmsnvn)
I could not get the bearing carrier to move out of the cast hub with any amount of blows. Probably needs some heat, not necessary to remove for the cleaning.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48801527953_6375714977_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hmqA3n)
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I could not get the bearing carrier to move out of the cast hub with any amount of blows. Probably needs some heat, not necessary to remove for the cleaning.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48801527953_6375714977_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hmqA3n)
I never remove that. Heat and a press are both likely necessary.
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Stripped the wheels apart. Had some difficulty with a few spokes on the front wheel that were seized into the hub. A little heat helped things along.
I took the rear drive apart carefully noting the shims (only the thin paper gasket and a single shim). Ring gear looks great, no discernible wear, bearing and surfaces look good.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48810977071_fdbf898dc4_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hng1Wc)
I've done lots of fork rebuilds/re-valves on modern enduro bikes - these are dead simple in comparison. The dampers look to be new(er) than the rest of the fork and they seem to offer consistent resistance through their stroke when in the proper orientation. One fork had no oil in the fork tube chamber and the tube is marked up pretty bad if a few places - may not be able to buff it out. Undecided about upgrading to FAC dampers...
The fork bottoms (legs) appear to be painted silver and rather poorly. I'd assume this was done by a previous owner and the stock legs would be raw aluminum?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48810621858_4d9a048710_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hneckQ)
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As the weather in Calgary was so nice today :cry: I decided to stay in the garage.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48815940103_161da77241_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hnGsgH)
Among the parts that I purchased with the bike was a used Dyna III ignition and set of Dyna 3.3 ohm coils. I don't think it was ever installed on this bike, previous owner likely picked it up and never got around to installing it. I wanted to test the integrity of the kit so I fashioned a test of sorts using a single spark plug, battery and a host of alligator clips. Took a while to realize that I needed to ground the distributor to make it work (underside of the Dyna circuit board plate has traces to the mounting screws) but managed to get the spark plug to fire on both the red and green coil output circuits.
The stock coil draw about 2.8 amps with the 'ignition on' and slightly less when I spin the distributor to create a spark. Comparatively, the Dyna coils draw 3.4 amps with ignition on and distributor resting which is close to the same ratio as the measured coil resistance (3.8 vs 3.0 ohms). I've read that the supported coil resistance for the Dyna III is 5 ohms and that you can add a 2 ohm 50W power resistor in series with the 3 ohm coil. Running both 3 ohm coils would consume over 80 watts, 5 ohms would be closer to 60 watts. All theory of course, I'm months away from a running engine :sad:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48815940243_18f80a5c9e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hnGsj8)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48816453027_02f6d1f189_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hnK5Ke)
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My 87LM came to me with the 3ohm Dyna coils and a Dyna III ignition. It's been running perfectly for the last 20K since I got it.
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Hi
Good to see the 850T getting some love.
A suggestion for a new or good replacement front rim could be an enquire to Wolfgang Haerter. Top bloke to deal with and more than Laverda and in your backyard (relatively speaking) http://www.angelfire.com/biz/laverda/
Cheers
Jason
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I have a spare Borani rim just cant recall if its a front or rear! Will let you know when I get back. Your making great progress and I am enjoying watching your work. Wolfgang might be able to help you he is a great guy and his stock of parts is something to see if you ever pass through Nakusp. Wolfgang stocks everything for Dellorto including complete new carbs and plenty of CEV lights, switches etc. You could probably build a Laverda from scratch out of his parts warehouse!
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Not making much progress, work and life continue to get in the way :tongue:...
I did manage to get a crank shop outside of Edmonton to take a good look at my crankshaft and the two bearings. John Brunner @ John's Custom Cranks has been a 'go to' for Jim (canuck750) for some time. John's best in his field, has an amazing machine shop on his country acreage with some old memorabilia displayed - that in itself was worth the trip.
Good news was my crank is in fine shape, all bearing surfaces and rod journals within spec - he cleaned them up nicely. Not so good news is my bearings are worn with clearances outside of spec. Much better than a crank re-grind but new bearings are in order.
Which leads to a question. How does one measure the camshaft bearing clearances that are milled inside the engine case? If they're outside of spec is there any way to address/remedy??
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48854787656_5f1dbe723b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hr8yi7)
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Three boxes of parts arrive today from three different suppliers (MGC, HMB, Scrambler), all ordered on Oct 14 which is surprisingly quick turn around for deliveries to Canada. I need to get busy now!
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:popcorn: looking forward to seeing the progress!
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Great reporting! This will be very helpful to future restorers on the forum.
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This is in reference to your earlier question concerning the clutch . The early shallow spline clutch hubs are no longer available (maybe you can find new old stock).
So if replacing the clutch , I'd suggest getting the new 4mm hub and matching plates . I used the SD-Tec kit and although it
fit and works well enough , I find the clutch engagement point very limited ! Hopefully others here can suggest a more traffic
friendly clutch . Peter
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This is in reference to your earlier question concerning the clutch . The early shallow spline clutch hubs are no longer available (maybe you can find new old stock).
So if replacing the clutch , I'd suggest getting the new 4mm hub and matching plates . I used the SD-Tec kit and although it
fit and works well enough , I find the clutch engagement point very limited ! Hopefully others here can suggest a more traffic
friendly clutch . Peter
Interesting. I have SD-TEC plates in my V700 and have installed them in just about every customer's Guzzi for the last few years. I would not consider the "clutch engagement point very limited" - perhaps it's how the arm on the transmission is adjusted. They may not be as "soft" as some others, but much better than the Sureflex plates which are very on/off.
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This is in reference to your earlier question concerning the clutch . The early shallow spline clutch hubs are no longer available (maybe you can find new old stock).
So if replacing the clutch , I'd suggest getting the new 4mm hub and matching plates . I used the SD-Tec kit and although it
fit and works well enough , I find the clutch engagement point very limited ! Hopefully others here can suggest a more traffic
friendly clutch . Peter
I've ordered the SD-Tec kit from MG Cycle with the 4mm splines hub. The old clutch plates were not worn too bad but had a fair amount off oil all over them from a leaking vent pipe gasket.
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Haven't spent too much time in the shop the past few weeks but making some progress with some outside help.
Earlier this week I paid a visit to Jim Carey's (a.k.a. canuck750) shop to drop off my bits for vapor blasting.
:bow: :bow: If any of you happen to venture to Alberta, ensure you go to Edmonton and pay Jim a visit. His workshop is a shrine to MG restoration. All the bikes less the KLR and K1600 in his signature line are in his shop, each a perfect restoration piece including the Moto Morini nearly complete on the bike lift. I've only recently caught the MG restoration bug and have spent countless hours reviewing his restoration posts - it's great to see firsthand the very tools that are shown in his posts. I'm too new to have seen the 'Now That's a Hemi' making of a big block engine cut away display thread from earlier this year (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=100195.0 (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=100195.0)) - this should be in a museum. Jim is a gracious tour guide, knowledge and passion leaking through each project he explains, with lots of tips and suggestions for my project. I could have monopolized hours of his time... Thanks for the tour Jim!
A few short days later and he informs he's completed the blasting, ready for pickup.
(https://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/1975%20Ducati%20860%20GT/IMG_5532_zpsxowsjm5x.jpg) (https://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/1975%20Ducati%20860%20GT/IMG_5532_zpsxowsjm5x.jpg.html)
(https://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/1975%20Ducati%20860%20GT/IMG_5534_zpspo2ufsoo.jpg) (https://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/1975%20Ducati%20860%20GT/IMG_5534_zpspo2ufsoo.jpg.html)
Rather than pulling out the case bearings in the transmission (which were in fine shape), I put the two halves together with a home made gasket and sealed up all the openings with fender washers, tire tube gaskets and o-rings. The only hole I missed was the tach drive and Jim had an old tach drive assembly seal it (he has an old everything somewhere in that shop...). Should have sealed fine, if some blasting media found it's way in I'll thorough flush with solvent.
(https://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/1975%20Ducati%20860%20GT/IMG_5535_zpsxz5lomk2.jpg) (https://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/1975%20Ducati%20860%20GT/IMG_5535_zpsxz5lomk2.jpg.html)
Meanwhile I was prepping the frame for sand blasting and powder coating. At some point in this bikes history the original ignition coil and diode rectifier mounts were cut off and new ones brazed on. It was shoddy work, not square and some of the brazing was cracking. I ground these off to make room to weld on new tabs to support the Dyna coil hanger I'm working up that will fit under the main frame tube under the tank.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49009836606_8f92eab3cb_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hEQdWS)
My collection of torque wrenches vary from a Craftsman micrometer style 1/2" drive that my dad bought for me in high school (nearly the same vintage as the 850T) to several cheap HF like offshore sketchy/questionable accuracy, none ever calibrated. I picked this up today, less than a year old and slightly used (70 torque cycles - it keeps track) for a reasonable $. An investment for certain but I'll have some assurance torquing the connecting rod bolts. I had tried to calibrate my existing wrenches with a set of dumbbells and length of rope - results weren't exactly confidence inspiring.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49010045017_8d470d0d55_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hERhUa)
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You will really have something to be proud of when done!
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I was just reading through this thread and noticed your wheel is stamped record - is that not the valuable (rarer) rim supplied oem on v7 sports? Didnt think the T series got those....
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I believe the record 'cross' rims were the ones on the V7 Sport. Here's a thread that discusses this very issue.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=80897.msg1275465#msg1275465 (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=80897.msg1275465#msg1275465)
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Haven't posted for a while so this will be a catch-up...
The last pieces to get ready for powder coating were triple clamps. The bottom steering head bearing was a bugger to get off. I purchased a flat blade-style bearing separator that worked well. Bearing was mangled so new ones on the way.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154697371_17e648f049_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTCF1g)
With my engine pieces freshly vapor blasted and waiting for a pickup in Edmonton at Jim's and all by frame pieces at the powder coating shop, I turned my attention to the forks.
I gather the bottom portions of the forks were painted silver from the factory. The set on this bike appears to have an additional paint coat that was more of a flat grey. I used a fine brass wire wheel on a bench grinder to remove the paint then some time on a polishing wheel. Cleaned up nice.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154697281_ce27569d38_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTCEYH)
Next was the rims and spokes. I decided I would salvage the front Borrani rim with the slight bend. Following instructions posted by others on Borrani rim restoration I managed to clean up the rims and spokes nicely. Buffed the rims to a near mirror finish with Mothers aluminum wheel polish applied felt wheels on a Dremel. I found the 8" polishing wheels would get torn up by the spoke nipple holes in the rim. Time consuming but pleased with the results. Spokes and nipples cleaned up nicely with the fine brass wire wheel.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154907552_e5356a921f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTDKu5)
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Frame and pieces back from Calgary Powder Coating. Jim and the team there understand how to prep the frame and more fragile pieces with suitable blasting media. Standard 'carbon black' for the frame and related parts and a slight wrinkle black for the triple clamps and instrument brackets. Turned out very well - sacrificed some of the old bolts to keep the paint out of the threads as I have a stainless fastener kit from Stainless Cycle.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154197493_5035387ab9_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTA7pF)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154697026_ce84ba0ed7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTCEUj)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154696956_acba8b41bb_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTCET7)
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Finally had an reason to go to Edmonton this past week and picked up the aluminum bits I left with Jim. He did a great job, pieces look new with virtually no traces of the blasting media anywhere. Here's a contrast to a head that wasn't cleaned.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154696511_e3cceab72a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTCEKr)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154696611_62d90e2d45_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTCEMa)
Back wheel rim and brake backing plate.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154907167_025e0810c9_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTDKnr)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154201168_aca3b62436_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTA8v3)
Waiting for a few more parts and some free time runway to assemble the engine. In the meantime, laced up the rims to the cleaned hubs, installed new bearings and started the truing process. Wheels run surprisingly true when the nipples are finger tightened.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154700846_3816998d47_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTCG3b)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154911172_1f7d7efb8a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTDLyu)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154200963_cebf67b805_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTA8rv)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154200753_54f7529760_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTA8nT)
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154911172_1f7d7efb8a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hTDLyu)
If those are both front bearing carriers, then only one bearing is inserted completely to the bottom and secured with a circlip. The other is installed flush and "floats".
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I'd be deadly afraid to take anything that perfectly restored out into traffic :bow: , Peter
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Guzzi porn, love it :thumb:
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If those are both front bearing carriers, then only one bearing is inserted completely to the bottom and secured with a circlip. The other is installed flush and "floats".
You know, I reviewed the parts manual and only saw one circlip on the larger carrier (the one supporting the single brake disc) but my bike had one on each when I took the wheel apart so I re-installed it. I'll remove so that it can float as you suggest, makes sense - thanks Charlie!
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I have an early spoked wheel with twin discs and have 2 cir-clips . Was that because of the second disc ? Peter
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I have an early spoked wheel with twin discs and have 2 cir-clips . Was that because of the second disc ? Peter
The Eldorado disc brake wheel (about as early as one can get) had one bearing fully in with a circlip and the other flush. Single or twin discs should make no difference.
http://thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/spare_parts_catalog_850_1ed_disc_brake_supplement.pdf
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I took another look at the front bearing carriers to see if the 2nd circlip would present any issue. I had previously lightly torqued the bolts that fasten the two bearing carriers (without the brake disc) as to spin the wheel on my truing stand and noticed that the bearings were jammed such that they would not freely spin. I backed off the bolts and both bearings were free to spin. The 2nd circlip had moved the bearing too far into the carrier and against the spacer between the bearings. When the bolts were tightened this effectively squeezed the bearings so they were binding in the races. I took out the 2nd circlip, tightened the bolts and the bearing moved a slight distance out of the carrier, far enough that circlip would not fit into the groove. The manuals and Charlie are correct - you shouldn't install the 2nd circlip. The previous owner and/or mechanic of my bike had this wrong.
On the single front disk brake bikes the circlip needs to be on the bearing carrier supporting the brake disk, keeping the brake disk a consistent distance from the fork, aligning the brake caliper. When the axle nut is tightened the 'floating' bearing will tighten against the spacer.
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Finally, engine assembly! Been reading through many threads pulling tips and trick from the many posts on the topic and can finally apply want I learned.
I purchased the HMB billet front and back bearings since I was already shipping the con rod bolts from HMB in Gemany (seems these are in scarce supply). The billet front bearing is the later style for the later big twins with oil filters so I needed to modify to suit my non-oil filter engine. Guzziology covers how to but it's pretty straight forward with a couple of sharp drill bits and a drill press to make the oil passage from the oil pump and the extra hole on the bearing flange.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49219092943_13bdbf5ea8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZjHyK)
The machined rear billet bearing is a thing of beauty...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49219573336_7a8fd5e777_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZnbno)
Front bearing was a tight fit but position it just right and it seated without any effort. I elected to use M8 wave washers rather than the retaining tabs. Use a light coating of blue thread locker.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49219573281_f1b5986790_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZnbmr)
Installed the timing chain tensioner with the 3 & 4 o'clock bolts. Schnoor locking washers under the bolts on the steel tensioner backet.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49219092808_35d570a6a8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZjHwq)
Red thread locker on the aluminum plug for the sludge trap. Crank was thorough cleaned prior to get any of the remaining sludge.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49219092758_7c29dff537_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZjHvy)
Put a light coat of Permetex Aviation gasket goop on both sides of the gasket. Crank bearings lightly coated with assembly lube.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49219092683_482cec2bd0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZjHug)
Double checked the alignment of the oil passages in the bearing - get that wrong and, well, don't want to think about that. The rear bearing is a tight fit and needed gentle taps from a rubber mallet. Used longer M8 bolts threaded into the engine case to align the bearing as it slips down. Followed Guzziology Dave's suggestion for seating the bearing in the case. Suggests taping gently with a mallet rather than using the bolts to seat the bearing flange against the engine case - his theory is it may be less prone to leaking done this way.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49219799477_602aae142a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZokAn)
Cam all lubed up prior to inserting into the engine case.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49219092593_b84250d698_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZjHsH)
New cam retainer thrust flange from HMB. You can see there is some slight wear in the old one were the timing chain sprocket wears against the flange.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49219092563_8b7ec92dfc_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZjHsc)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49219572906_1187d7548e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZnbeY)
Question for the experts ...
The new flange is is 0.1mm thicker than the old flange (not factoring the wear on the old one). I haven't torqued down the sprocket nut yet but it would seem there's not going to be much if any clearance for the flange between the shoulder on the camshaft and the sprocket. I have seen other posts from LesP (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=93655.msg1628200#msg1628200 (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=93655.msg1628200#msg1628200)) and Jim (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=89764.msg1436835#msg1436835 (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=89764.msg1436835#msg1436835)) where modifications were made to ensure good oiling to either side of the thrust flange. Should I modify similarly? Has this been an issue that some have experienced? The service manuals make no reference to the clearances surrounding the thrust flange.
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The shoulder on the rear of the cam and the cam front face/rear of the sprocket face makes the clearance go, no go and it was fine on my HMB flange.
I did fairly extensive machining on all those parts, will it get a better oil firm is unknown and probably won't check, the only reason I did half channels was so oil would not just flow through and there was not increased pressure bleed off (clearance between the flange faces)
Hopefully the best of both worlds.
The wear I saw on the old parts including the rear of the camshaft sprocket thrust face suggested it could do with more oil one way or another.
I seem to recall the flange from MGCycle already has some channels/grooves in the face .
I have to laugh (at myself) , I saw the front oil filter bearing and thought how will it get filtered oil then after rereading realised you don't have a filter and did not modify the engine case to suit one.
Nice job, keep up the good work.
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I don't have the machining tools nor none of the skills LesP has to modify the thrust flange as he did so I simple used a mini dye grinder on a rotary tool to groove the surface faces the camshaft sprocket.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49225389532_df5bef10c7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZSZjC)
Flange installed with Schnoor locking washers with a centering trick from LesP.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49225165366_04c2061b21_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZRQFG)
Lubed up the inside of the rear seal and applied a thin coat of Permetex Aviation on the outside of the seal per Charlie's suggestion I read somewhere.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49224686443_119375aba0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZPojp)
Seal installation tool makes quick work of setting the seal into the bearing at the right depth.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49225165256_dbb8116e64_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZRQDN)
Moving on to the connecting rods, installed the new bearing shells and bolts and nuts. The shells I purchased from MGCycle are all the same (two holes on each shell so they work for either half).
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49225389332_679563c1be_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZSZgb)
Shop manual suggests the rod assemblies be weighed in an effort reduce any imbalance. Snuck these into the kitchen when my wife wasn't looking. Close enough as the manual states 3 grams is the maximum allowable difference but I doubt that kitchen scale is that repeatable.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49224711188_7628970a2a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZPvF3)
Question - does it matter which way you install each connecting rod? I know the machine surfaces on the side of both housings need to be on the same side and the pairing of the two pieces need to be maintained. With two lubrication holes on each shell half there is no up/down? The old single hole shells had the hole on the machined side of the con rod assembly. Is that the orientation I need to maintain?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49224778838_e05937ab87_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hZPRMq)
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Is there an oil hole in the rod? One of the holes in the shell will line up with it. If there are oil holes, then the left - up and right - down in the instructions applies.
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Yes, there are holes in the rod - just noticed that now. The oil hole is on the same side as the machined side of the big end bearing holder, just like the drawing. I found I picture I had taken of the rod bolts before I removed them, they are installed as you and the manual suggest. Thanks :wink:
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So, funny story. This morning I'm sitting on the throne (privy, latrine, head, amenity - understanding this is an international audience) thumbing through Hayes Owners Workshop Manual that I have at the ready and come across this picture concerning engine assembly.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49231218731_065ae25d51_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i1oS94)
Bugger!! I forgot to install the locking pin or push fit pipe as the manual calls it. But... does this billet bearing assembly need the locking in to keep the inner bearing from rotating in the housing? Email to HMB went unanswered although HMB sells the pin as a related part to their billet bearings. LesP replied to a PM and said he did install the pin in the same billet bearing but also questioned why it was needed. Better safe than sorry, I pulled out the bearing before the sealant, thread locker and gasket goop set any further. Messy task but accomplished. Can't imagine the angst if I had the engine back in the bike when I came across that! :violent1:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49230753493_8f4bef1c27_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i1mtQH)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49231218796_95d0820d56_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i1oSab)
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Coming along real nice!
I forget something in most every engine I put together and end up pulling it apart at least once, I think its called learning, at the very least its a bonding experience with the engine :grin:
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Installed the connecting rods today. As the crank journals were in spec and I purchased new bearing shells I didn't bother plasti-gauging the clearance. With the shells lubed up and the rod bolts torqued the rods were snug on the journals but still moved freely albeit well dampened due to the thick assembly lube.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49256326976_0283a8209f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3BxWQ)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49256517367_0a728c9569_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3Cwxr)
New oil pump, milled from solid billet. Gear/impellers have are larger diameter over stock for improved oil capacity.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49256326901_4ba5e8a160_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3BxVx)
With the pump and oil pickup in place I test fit the sprocket on the new oil pump.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49256517217_f8a022b33c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3CwuR)
ARRGGGG :violent1:... The new key I purchased from MGC with the pump is too large to fit the shaft of the new oil pump. Why would they sell a key that is specifically for this pump (it's the straight type, not the half moon style of the original pump) yet has no chance of fitting? The slot in the new pump is too narrow and not deep enough for the straight key. The key fit perfectly in the sprocket slot which is quite shallow. Do these sprockets have differing depth of slots such that the key would fit the deepest sprocket/pump shaft slot??
Had to pull the pump off and use a cut off wheel in a Dremel to widen the slot and make it deeper to accommodate the key - ridiculous...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49256517262_3d2deb7a3a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3CwvC)
I installed the oil pan temporarily with a few or the old bolts as the bolts in my Stainless Cycle kit for the pan were too short. I'm sure I specified I had the stock 850T oil pan when I ordered. Oh well..., I'll pick up some stainless cap screws locally.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49256326756_2ab8b790d4_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3BxT3)
Next I wanted to install the flywheel so I could use the flywheel holding tool to torque the crank and cam sprocket nuts. Installed the breather and oil return tubes with the suggested gasket and sealant goop respectively.
Before I install the flywheel I want to clean up the timing marks as they are difficult to see and the markings are confusing.
This is the left "S" side timing mark. The alignment of the arrow on the flywheel to the TDC case indicator (see http://www.thisoldtractor.com/projects_roy_smith_2013-03-19_install_the_flywheel_and_clutch.html (http://www.thisoldtractor.com/projects_roy_smith_2013-03-19_install_the_flywheel_and_clutch.html)) aligns with the faint scratch just above the "S" stamped on the flywheel edge (red line in the picture).
The specs state the idle timing advance is 8 degrees. I don't have a degree wheel but I did a bit of trigonometry to determine that an angle of 8 degrees extended along the radius of the edge of the flywheel (115mm) would equate to a distance of 16mm from the TDC mark (formula for similar eng geeks as I is (115^2+115^2-2x115x115xCos(8))^0.5 =16.0).
There are multiple punch marks at the 16mm measurement (blue line below) that suggests the previous owner/mechanic likely marked those as a timing target. Also note another scratch highlighted in blue 2/3's of the distance to the 16mm mark, unsure of that purpose. I also applied the same trig math to the 34 degrees advance timing for the engine running at 4,500 RPM to get a value of 67mm from the TDC mark. There is another faint scratch on the flywheel that measures 67mm exactly from TDC that would be used for the timing mark - seems my math works...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49256695807_66fe3f21e3_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3DrzZ)
Below is the picture of for the right cylinder with TDC marked "D". There is a similar faint scratch just above the "D" and a faint scratch at 8 degrees (16mm) but the punch marks (with red highlighting) is only 5mm or 2.5 degrees from TDC. Had that been used for timing the cylinder the ignition would have been retarded way too much.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49256502466_d0209ec9ea_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3Cs7w)
The best way to determine TDC is with a piston stop and degree wheel when the heads are installed. There is a degree or two of play with the M8 bolts that fasten the flywheel to the crankshaft that can be used to align the existing timing marks if needed. I'll need to come back to this later when my heads are on and then mark the flywheel accordingly.
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Instead of that trig formula, why not calculate the diameter, divide by 360, then multiply by 8?
One of these days I should make an adapter for a dial indicator using an old spark plug, and check my timing marks.
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A piston stop made from an old spark plug with the porcelain punched out and a 6 mm nut and bolt will work fine, that with a degree wheel will do the trick.
Nice work on the engine assembly. I have had a similar experience with the key for the newer style oil pumps, PITA!
Merry X-Mas
Jim
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Instead of that trig formula, why not calculate the diameter, divide by 360, then multiply by 8?
Yes, there's more than one way to figure this! That works as long as you measure that distance along the diameter (curve) vs a straight line distance measured with a caliper. Not a big difference for the 16mm but the 34 degree advance timing mark is 67mm (tangent) and a bit more than 68.2mm along the diameter. Nerd stuff... :grin:
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Nice work! I have my 850T stripped down and waiting for me to find the time and $ to start rebuilding. In the meantime I am enjoying your posts and will definitely use them as a reference.
Cheers,
BikeMike
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Yes, there's more than one way to figure this! That works as long as you measure that distance along the diameter (curve) vs a straight line distance measured with a caliper. Not a big difference for the 16mm but the 34 degree advance timing mark is 67mm (tangent) and a bit more than 68.2mm along the diameter. Nerd stuff... :grin:
I haven't used Trig since high school, so don't remember how to do those calculations. That's pretty cool you've got a good understanding of those tools.
Of course, I wouldn't have thought of taking a straight line measurement from point A to point B rather than arcing the diameter. In roughly 2.5" you'd be .05" off.
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Is this too much wear on the flywheel splines?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49303112307_b145490496_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i7KkAt)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49302914596_381e593cc1_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i7JjPE)
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In my opinion, yes.
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In my opinion, yes.
:undecided: Thanks Charlie.. Do you have a suggestion for a new flywheel? MGC sells a 17067050 ~9.5 lb model that I believe will fit the 850T. Should I consider one of the lighter versions (5.5 lbs)?
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Last winter I replaced only the clutch plate on my 1984 California II, since the splines on the flywheel showed only very light wear marks. The splines on your flywheel clearly show too much wear, and I would definitely replace the flywheel at this stage in your rebuild.
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:undecided: Thanks Charlie.. Do you have a suggestion for a new flywheel? MGC sells a 17067050 ~9.5 lb model that I believe will fit the 850T. Should I consider one of the lighter versions (5.5 lbs)?
You'll get a lot of different opinions on this, but I would stick with a flywheel of the original weight (9.5 lbs.).
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I spent today cleaning out my garage attic and buried in a container is a flywheel, pressure plate etc... stop by next time you are up in Edmonton and take it away, I need the space!
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I spent today cleaning out my garage attic and buried in a container is a flywheel, pressure plate etc... stop by next time you are up in Edmonton and take it away, I need the space!
Jim - I'll take you up on that offer! I'll PM you when I'm headed that way, thanks! Happy new year!
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I've gone as far as I can with the engine assembly as I'm waiting for the head work to be completed at Universal Cycle in Calgary. I'm also trying to source locally the 2 bearings (large 2 row input and output) before I can assemble the transmission. So, moving on to the rear drive...
I hadn't taken too close a look at the drive shaft when I took the swing arm and rear drive apart but I did note that the remaining grease was very thin and had a rusty look. I cleaned up the pieces in solvent today and removed the corrosion with a brass wire brush. Following picture is the drive shaft splines and rear pinion splines that fit into the coupling. Noticeable pitting where rust was removed with a wire brush.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49312432278_3ec265259a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i8z76C)
Next is the opposite end of the drive shaft that fits into the U-joint. The splines on the opposite end of the drive shaft are in much better condition and only exhibit a very slight axial play when inserted into the U-joint. The picture does contrast what the splines should look like on the pinion gear.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49312930126_87dcb8be94_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i8BE6d)
The U-joint itself is very tight, but I can feel a very slight amount of play when I twist the opposite ends of the U-joint.
All put together, the following video shows the lash in the entire drive shaft from the U-joint to the read drive. The splines on the output shaft of the transmission are in good shape, the mating end of the U-joint has no discern-able play/movement.
https://youtu.be/hS1es3Cpoz4 (https://youtu.be/hS1es3Cpoz4)
Unless someone has a different suggestion, I'll be needing a new drive shaft, coupler sleeve and ring & pinion gear set. The latter is regrettable due to the cost and complexity taking apart the pinion bearing assembly and the required shimming on the ring gear to make it all run smooth :cry:.
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I've gone as far as I can with the engine assembly as I'm waiting for the head work to be completed at Universal Cycle in Calgary. I'm also trying to source locally the 2 bearings (large 2 row input and output) before I can assemble the transmission. So, moving on to the rear drive...
I hadn't taken too close a look at the drive shaft when I took the swing arm and rear drive apart but I did note that the remaining grease was very thin and had a rusty look. I cleaned up the pieces in solvent today and removed the corrosion with a brass wire brush. Following picture is the drive shaft splines and rear pinion splines that fit into the coupling. Noticeable pitting where rust was removed with a wire brush.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49312432278_3ec265259a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i8z76C)
Next is the opposite end of the drive shaft that fits into the U-joint. The splines on the opposite end of the drive shaft are in much better condition and only exhibit a very slight axial play when inserted into the U-joint. The picture does contrast what the splines should look like on the pinion gear.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49312930126_87dcb8be94_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i8BE6d)
The U-joint itself is very tight, but I can feel a very slight amount of play when I twist the opposite ends of the U-joint.
All put together, the following video shows the lash in the entire drive shaft from the U-joint to the read drive. The splines on the output shaft of the transmission are in good shape, the mating end of the U-joint has no discern-able play/movement.
https://youtu.be/hS1es3Cpoz4 (https://youtu.be/hS1es3Cpoz4)
Unless someone has a different suggestion, I'll be needing a new drive shaft, coupler sleeve and ring & pinion gear set. The latter is regrettable due to the cost and complexity taking apart the pinion bearing assembly and the required shimming on the ring gear to make it all run smooth :cry:.
I'd replace the driveshaft and coupler, but not the ring & pinion (unless there's more damage, like chipped gear teeth or something). If kept greased, those input splines will most likely run a long time.
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I'd replace the driveshaft and coupler, but not the ring & pinion (unless there's more damage, like chipped gear teeth or something). If kept greased, those input splines will most likely run a long time.
Thanks Charlie... I was hoping for that response! I'll replace the driveshaft components and ensure it's lubed up well.
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I picked up the output bearing from a local bearing supply shop. There are many variants of the 3205 two row bearing, this one had plastic sealing shields that were easily removed to make it an open style and has a plastic bearing holder. The application specialist insisted these would work fine in the relatively low transmission temperatures with the shields removed for open lubrication. Old bearing is on the right.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49320129396_33120eb823_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i9fyby)
Seals installed in the output and input sides.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49320337937_282f8416b6_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i9gCb6)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49319634183_222bfa5a66_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i9d1Yp)
Cleaned up the output shaft. There was a sealant of sorts that had clogged up & hardened around the old o-ring.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49320129236_8af5dd48fc_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i9fy8N)
New 4mm spline hub with the tricky peg nut and locking tab washer.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49320338402_d473559e71_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i9gCj7)
Laying in the shafts is a bit tricky. John Noble's 'Inside the Lemon Box' is a great resource on 5-speed transmission rebuilds - highly recommended for newbies like me.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49319633898_e3cef84a39_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i9d1Tu)
Positioned the selector mechanism to ensure that I had the drum positioned to 'neutral' so the pawls would slip over the drum cut outs. It's all well explained in the Lemon Box.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49320129066_2cfce39803_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i9fy5S)
Backside of the case cap with the selector mechanism fitted. Note the new output bearing.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49319633763_7968e85092_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i9d1Ra)
Tightened it all down to precisely 115 ft-lbs with the two proper hand wrenches (feels like 115 ft-lbs...)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49320338162_0d8cf3fc86_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i9gCeY)
Stake the thin edge of the nut into the splines in a few places.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49319633633_e2f236b915_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i9d1NV)
Transmission completed! Just need to source that tiny washer at the end of the speedo drive gear which was missing when I disassembled the transmission. Never been this deep into a transmission before and I had anticipated putting it together to be more of a chore than it was. Again, John's guide provides step by step for those unfamiliar.
One tip not mentioned in the Lemon Box guide. Test the neutral switch with a ohm meter prior to sealing up the gasket. I had to bend the copper tongue up slightly to get it to ground to whatever it is that it bumps up against when the box is in neutral.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49319633588_cab32d2406_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i9d1N9)
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Beautiful work! Astonished you describe yourself as a newbie. I'll be referencing this thread when I have to get deep into the LeMonIII.
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Great work :thumb:
Check Home Depot in the hardware section, plastic revolving parts bins in Edmonton they have a selection of small hard steel shims, you may luck out and find one that fits the speedo drive shaft.
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Beautiful work! Astonished you describe yourself as a newbie. I'll be referencing this thread when I have to get deep into the LeMonIII.
When I bought the 850T I had no idea of the resources that are out there for these older Guzzi's. If you take the time to poke around this site and others you should be able to find any answer you're looking for. The 'regular re-builders' who lurk on these threads are invaluable to fill in any gaps, be sure to abuse them!
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Great work :thumb:
Check Home Depot in the hardware section, plastic revolving parts bins in Edmonton they have a selection of small hard steel shims, you may luck out and find one that fits the speedo drive shaft.
Home Depot? No kidding - I'll give that a try today!
I did find a thread that pointed to Fastenal (https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/11511041 (https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/11511041)), minimum order is 20 pieces at $7.50 each ($150 for the order!).
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Home Depot? No kidding - I'll give that a try today!
I did find a thread that pointed to Fastenal (https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/11511041 (https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/11511041)), minimum order is 20 pieces at $7.50 each ($150 for the order!).
I have a baggie full of those washers. I can send you one (or more) if necessary.
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You probably have this under control but when I did the last rebuild I had a spare gearbox and thus two speedometer drives. I stupidly put one in the tachometer drive socket (the drives are identical except for the pitch of the gear teeth) and then wondered why the tach didn't work.
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You probably have this under control but when I did the last rebuild I had a spare gearbox and thus two speedometer drives. I stupidly put one in the speedometer drive socket (the drives are identical except for the pitch of the gear teeth) and then wondered why the speedometer didn't work.
I think you meant to write "tachometer" somewhere in there, no?
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I have a baggie full of those washers. I can send you one (or more) if necessary.
Charlie - I'll take you up on your offer! PM sent.
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I think you meant to write "tachometer" somewhere in there, no?
Correct, Charlie. I fixed it.
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It's been a long month waiting for parts, some miserable cold weather that kept my garage too cool and lots of travel for work. Don @ Universal Cycle got around to my heads (new valves, guides, springs) all to spec. Valves were worn beyond salvaging, seats needed the normal lapping - looking good.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49540257871_6ace4c161c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2itGLH6)
With the new drive shaft and coupler I was able to finish assembling the rear drive to the swing arm. Liberally coated the splines with Wurth SIG3000 grease prior to assembly. Installed the axle to align the the rear drive prior to torquing down the 4 nuts fastening the two pieces together.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49540257826_18b49d44a7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2itGLGj)
Installed the flywheel that Jim (canuck750) graciously donated. I'll need to index the timing marks once I confirm TDC for both cylinders.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49539804418_fedbb8eee6_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2itErUW)
All the bits for one cylinder in a Gilardoni kit. Glad I purchased when I did as it seems these are now difficult to find.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49540482607_21fbd8c751_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2itHVvR)
I had purchased a piston wrist pin press tool thinking that these would fit snug enough that I'd need to heat the piston and press in the wrist pin. Instructions with the kit indicate that the 'union is floating' and doesn't require any force. It didn't, slid in nice and easy.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49540482777_210a980852_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2itHVyM)
Read the instructions thoroughly "make sure the arrow on the piston is pointing to the exhaust side of the head' - yup I got that. Only I didn't... :violent1: I also forgot about the o-rings on the cylinder studs at 6 & 12 o'clock. I opened Pete Ropers engine assembly guide at this point to ensure no more screw ups.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49540346326_b0ddce7b7f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2itHe1b)
New wave washers for all 6 studs (need a smaller one for the 12 o'clock hidden hex nut) and o-rings under the rocker arm carriers. Torqued in a 3-step cross pattern to 29 ft-lbs that the Gilardoni instructions indicated. Guzziology suggests letting the assembly sit over night and re-torque to let the gaskets fully compress as to lessen the valve clearance moves during the first few hundred km's.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49540353926_128390bfdc_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2itHggd)
One side almost done.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49540609942_c935b9ae5d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2itJznh)
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Looking good. I retorque quite a few times in the "first hundred kms". Like after the first start up and tuning, retorque. Five heat/cool cycles, retorque. 500 miles, retorque, 1000 more miles, retorque. They're usually good to go then. :wink:
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Thanks Charlie for your continued assistance. Assuming one needs to check valve clearance after each re-torque?
I got your speedo washers a few weeks ago, much appreciated!
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Looking really good :thumb:
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Thanks Charlie for your continued assistance. Assuming one needs to check valve clearance after each re-torque?
I got your speedo washers a few weeks ago, much appreciated!
Yes, check/adjust valve clearance after each retorque.
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When I dissembled the heads there was a noticeable amount of small rubber bits in the rocker carrier and rocker pine, presumably from the original cam chain tensioner block. Ran a small wire brush and air through the oil ports in each head and the rocker arm pin to ensure I got it all.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49549170847_6662e6221c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iuuse6)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49549170527_694fd19286_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iuus8z)
With both heads on I wanted to check the TDC markings on the new flywheel donated from a V7. I built a piston stop from an old sparkplug with the porcelain core and copper removed, ran a M8x1.25 tap through it so I could thread in a bolt that would reach the top of the piston a short distance from TDC.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49549170582_d6bd231294_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iuus9w)
A Motion Pro degree wheel fits almost exactly inside the flywheel ridge next to the clutch splines. I held it in place with a few rare earth magnets that stuck to the M12 bolt that threads into the crank that came with the rear seal installation tool I purchased from MGC. Used the flywheel positioning tool and some clear plastic to make an makeshift indicator.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49548444443_eb48737e07_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iuqJhT)
The indicated TDC was very close to what I was able to deduce with the piston stop and degree wheel, maybe a half degree out at the most. I used the degree wheel to mark the new timing marks (different on the V7 this flywheel came from) and check against the 2mm per degree method. Purchased the appropriate nail polish from a local drug store (ensuring I explained to the cashier what I was using it for...) and used the polish to fill in new grooves made with a small file.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49549256787_5a15aa2252_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iuuTLP)
With the timing marks fresh I took opportunity to statically set the Dyna III ignition which was never installed on this bike. Much easier with the engine on the bench, just took a series of alligator jumpers, battery w/ fuse to get the Dyna functioningon one coil. The Dyna setup instructions were thorough, even the advance timing mark was spot on the mechanical advance stop. Should be close enough to get the engine spinning to use a timing light.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49549170492_49d50f9d1b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iuus7Y)
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great detail work, looking forward to the start up report!
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Found some time today to complete the engine. Re-torqued the heads, adjusted the valves, installed the valve covers and the timing cover. New steel braided oil feed lines to the heads.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49572540257_3c47f2c453_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwye8X)
I looked at different alternator options, wanting sufficient wattage to run heated grips and a jacket liner (this, the land of 10 months of near winter). I settled on the EnDuraLast 450 watt kit for the higher amperage it generates but also for the brush-less permanent magnet rotor and combination rectifier/regulator. Pricey but the hardware is top shelf quality.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49572540172_46631656e2_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwye7u)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49572540212_8d622bb016_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwye8b)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49571803188_a58e16cbc5_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwus2S)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49572540097_19705e7911_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwye6c)
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On to the clutch. I installed new springs using Peter Roper's trick to get them to sit in the flywheel (use pliers to slightly bend the tail of the spring to grip the cylinder groove in the flywheel) - no gluing necessary.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49572313781_1ab8d1ca0d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwx4Pc)
The clutch alignment tool by MGC made easy work to both compress and align the SD-TEC deep spline clutch plates.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49571803063_d11edddae4_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwurZH)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49572313696_b6470c3ba3_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwx4MJ)
New 8mm bolts, schnoor washers fasten the ring gear.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49571803518_142a1342a0_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwus8y)
Transmission slipped easily into place once the splines matched the input shaft.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49572540492_660bba85af_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwyed1)
This concludes the engine/transmission assembly! Moved to my hydraulic dirt bike lift - great to move around and a raise to whatever working height needed to ready it to fasten to the frame.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49572314021_f0e0bc5ddb_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwx4Tk)
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Gorgeous work. Thanks for posting - this will be very helpful to me in the coming weeks.
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Not much progress this week. Constructed an ad hoc engine stand by screwing together 10" pieces of 2x4". That made installation of the engine frame rails and the center stand easy enough. The powder coated pieces, new stainless steel bolts/washers/nuts and some fresh grease made for smooth center stand operation.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49606451023_f451304891_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2izy2Ck)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49607212352_8b526703ca_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2izBVWG)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49606450858_005ba0b35a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2izy2zu)
Looks much better than when I tore it all apart last August!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49607224332_1968a7c294_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2izBZvf)
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Nice resurrection :thumb:
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Installed the frame tag today with fresh rivets and some black silicone adhesive on the backing.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49636318402_bc80e81350_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iCc7a9)
Installed the triple clamps with new bearings, forks slid in easily after I removed powder coating over spray. I left the old pinch bolts in the pieces when I sent them off to the powder coater - made for easy cleanup.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49636318237_0289111809_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iCc77i)
On the truing stand, the wheels required only a single balancing weight to balance out.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49635516353_cfb4026bbf_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iC7ZJH)
I've used these brass weights for years on a variety of bikes, I've never had one come off. Just use a little dab of thread locker on the retaining screw. Easily found on Ebay.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49635516303_d0b2bed13f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iC7ZHR)
With the front wheel on the bike can rest on the center stand.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49635516193_7c3ab59830_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iC7ZFX)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49635516073_7069fb83f6_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iC7ZDT)
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Gorgeous work. Well done!
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Early in this rebuild I was scratching my head as to where to place the ignition coils. I have a pair of Dyna coils that, like most for these old Guzzi's, are large and require a custom mounting. I ground off the old coil brackets prior to powder coating knowing they'd never work for the Dyna's and didn't arrive at a solution where to mount then as I had the bike completely dissembled. Now with the engine in the frame I needed to sort this out. I also needed to find a location for the Ducati rectifier/voltage regulator and the Dyna III ignition module.
I wanted the coils tucked under the tank to clean up the space between the toolboxes and air cleaners. There's lots of room under the top rail of the frame, just needed a way to hang them there. The Dyna's ( 3 ohm) are known to run warm and prone to fail if the heat they generate isn't managed. During my ignition static timing earlier in this thread I noticed the coil getting quite warm. So, the hanger needed some thermal mass to assist.
Starting with a piece of aluminum 1/2" x 1 1/2" bar stock I improvised fashioning a bracket, not having milling machine or the knowledge to run such a machine.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49636040621_45e0a78979_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iCaFzP)
The result didn't turn out too bad, LesP would have made a much more elegant piece with his skills... The coils mount solid against the aluminum bar and of significant mass that should aide in dissipating the heat the coils generate.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49635516713_28324e8c08_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iC7ZQV)
With the Ducati regulator mounted just under the steering stem there is sufficient room for my Dyna bracket to tuck in ahead of the breather can thing. Note the location of the Dyna III ignition, just below the regulator. There should be sufficient airflow to keep all these electrical systems cool as long as the bike is moving. :undecided:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49635516643_9348109452_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iC7ZPH)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49636318462_cb8e5c2e42_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iCc7bb)
Quick check to see if there is enough clearance with the tank installed. Lots of room above the top tube, there isn't much room on the sides of the tank and the lower upper tubes.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49635516568_7ae3a3429e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iC7ZNq)
Now to build a bracket to fasten the voltage regulator and build a wiring harness.
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Very nice work on the coil brackets. That should be able to do the job fine. And the rest looks great too! :)
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Very nice! I may be copying this one day!
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4yb5htZ/Screenshot-2020-03-14-20200308-DSC04545.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qt8TRBsB)
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This weekends tasks included wiring up the ignition & coils, fixing the voltage regulator to the frame with an aluminum bracket I hacked up and installing the new $59 USD starter I bought off ebay. I'm rebuilding the old Bosch starter but thought I'd give this a try to save some time and have a backup. Fits great but you need to grind down one of the bolt heads for the transmission neutral switch mount.
I purchased an Odyssey 925 battery per the suggestion on some threads and test fit one of the carbs with the velocity stack and K&N filter. Positioning the battery to the back of the battery tray leaves lots of room for the air filters.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49663782588_a3c7ffec4e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iEBSiA)
I didn't want the mammoth battery sliding around so I fasted some aluminum angles as stays.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49664319116_40b027cf8c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iEEBN5)
Couple of lengths of truck mud flap to rest the battery on with a nylon battery strap from an RV shop.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49664603937_0644bedef4_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iEG5sM)
The battery is slightly off center to give a more room for the battery terminals - still will be a little tight but there's no other way to fit the battery.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49663782483_1c42831428_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iEBSgM)
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Very clean fabrications! Looking great.
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Seems I'll have lots of time on my hands these days...
I replaced most all the brass in the carb's. The jet sizes were completely illegible so I wasn't sure what size the pilot and main jets were. Replaced those, mixture screws, needle, float needle and the choke assemblies. The floats look like they may have been replaced at least once so I re-used those. Greg Benders VHB carburetor rebuild is an excellen guide.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49684984757_a98aff2fc7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iGuwYe)
I have the motor far enough along that I intent to start it prior to assembling any more of the chassis. Still waiting for some for fuel line and a timing light for the full engine test but wired up some switches and indicator LED's with a 10 amp fused circuit off the battery.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49684984587_0a8ba24fb6_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iGuwVi)
The $59 starter spun the engine smartly. The first few revelations were slower due to the heavy assembly lube and the 10C temp in my workshop but as soon as the synthetic oil circulated enough the starter spun it noticeably faster, enough to trip the new oil pressure switch, confirming the new oil pump was doing it's job. I was curious as to the engine compression without any break-in time. About 135 psi with no carburetors installed. I tested ~90 psi before I started the rebuild adventure.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49684151463_01774aaa00_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iGqgg6)
Powered up the ignition and confirmed my wiring was in order with the engine cranking - yes there was light, er, sparks!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49684151363_a74cb6bf32_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iGqgen)
Before installing the carburetors, ensure you have the slightly longer intake manifold on the right cylinder head... :violent1: that burned up some time... The K&N filters clash into each other slightly even with the filters slipped well over the stacks.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49684151283_8de598d220_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iGqgcZ)
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Are you running the solenoid straight from the switch, or do you have a starter relay in the circuit? Not a big deal for testing but when the starter button is wired in you'll need a relay to protect it.
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Coming along nicely. :thumb: :thumb:
What is under the intake manifold 8 mm capscrews ?
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8mm cap screws?
That's where you screw in the vacuum gauges for carb balancing.
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That's where you screw in the vacuum gauges for carb balancing.
I think you would get a prize if you managed to do that. :laugh:
#
Maybe the later bikes are different but normally there are heavy Bakelite washers and a thin washer under the fastener heads to minimise direct heat transfer from the cylinder head to the intake/inlet manifolds.
I used two gaskets also... fwiw.
I am hesitant to post a picture in someone elses build thread but something like this, they normally have a thin steel washer but I machined new ones out of brass.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/time_warp1959/motorcycle/mgmods/in.jpg)
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Is it critical, probably not but was surprised at the material Moto Guzzi used, the modern fibre replacement versions are cheap construction in comparison.
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Are you running the solenoid straight from the switch, or do you have a starter relay in the circuit? Not a big deal for testing but when the starter button is wired in you'll need a relay to protect it.
I'm planning on using an M.Unit to manage the electrics on the bike and I believe that gizmo can managed a 30A starter circuit. You make a good point though as I blew a couple of 10A fuses when I turned the motor over with the ignition on. The starter solenoid on the $59 starter pulls 10A on it's own - I suspect the original Bosch would be similar or more.
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Maybe the later bikes are different but normally there are heavy Bakelite washers and a thin washer under the fastener heads to minimise direct heat transfer from the cylinder head to the intake/inlet manifolds.
I used two gaskets also... fwiw.
I am hesitant to post a picture in someone elses build thread but something like this, they normally have a thin steel washer but I machined new ones out of brass.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/time_warp1959/motorcycle/mgmods/in.jpg)
Good catch Les... Guzziology suggests 2 gaskets under each intake manifold even though the 850-T parts manual only shows a single gasket. MGC also suggests 2 gaskets.
On the washers under the screws, I should install the insulated washers (MGC again) to minimize heat transfer. Interesting the parts manual doesn't show these.
LesP - you can post any pictures you wish on my thread...! I like the brass washers :thumb:
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My bad. I read the question quickly and got the idea he was asking about the vacuum port screws on the sides of the manifolds.
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Big milestone today - first engine start!
Not wanting to install the fuel tank I rigged up a small fuel can with some tygon fuel line at similar elevation (head) as a full tank of fuel.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49715299327_8341dbd554_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iKaUre)
Set two floor drying blowers to direct air on each cylinder to keep things cool once up to operating temperature.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49714443963_b8dd139bf8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iK6waz)
Kevin Cameron, long time technical editor of Cycle World magazine, states that if you have compression, timing, ignition and fuel, an engine has no choice but to start. Hopefully that will hold here...
Compression - performed cold compression test - 135 psi per side which would suggest the cam timing to be correct.
Timing - see above
Ignition - I adjusted the distributor when I had the engine on the bench with the flywheel exposed. I confirmed the timing with a timing light on each side while turning the engine with the starter. I also confirmed the coils were jumping an arc across each plug.
Fuel - Carbs were ultrasonicly cleaned, all passages confirmed with compressed air, all new brass & other pieces including chokes - all jetting stock. Idle screws set to 10.5mm per Guzziology and closely sync'd with throttle cable pull (will need a proper carb sync when my CarbTune device arrives from the UK).
Here's the video I put together of the first turn over and start
https://youtu.be/5J5fWm9cqtY (https://youtu.be/5J5fWm9cqtY) Turn up your speakers for that awesome guzzi v-twin sound.
Really was quite uneventful which is what I was hoping for :laugh:. Ran then engine for about 45 minutes for a good heat cycle, only ran it to about 3,000 RPM, not enough to see the advanced timing mark on the flywheel. Surprised how close the ignition timing was - I may need adjust slightly when I get the idle more stable with a proper carb sync. The fans seemed to do a good job keeping things cool. The new alternator setup was putting out just over 14V at the various RPM's I ran the engine.
Drained the oil while it was hot, ran a magnet up and down the oil pan through the drain hole (no oil filter here - still wonder about that...). I'll re-torque the heads and set the valve clearance later this week and give it another heat cycle.
Great day amidst all the challenges we're facing - be safe everyone. :sad:
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That's great! Sounds like it will be a smooth sail!
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:thumb:
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Installed the swing arm and ran the engine again for about 40 minutes today.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49758143558_3184c45cba_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iNXuwS)
I sync'd the carbs with my Carbtune that recently arrived. Nice piece of kit and works very well. I've used various home made versions in the past that worked well, this one you simple put back in the pouch and throw it in the toolbox. Picture below is at a consistent idle at 1,260 RPM which is a bit too high now that I've re-read Guzziology. The old tachometer seems to be accurate against the cheapo digital unit I use for setting idle on my tach-less dual sports.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49758674516_3056331deb_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iP1dnj)
Next task is wiring up the bike. I'm making my own wiring harness that suits the Motogaget M Unit which requires a completely different approach due to the input/output nature of the device. Created a new wiring diagram in guide the work and lessen the chances of mistakes.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49758179863_810abb48bf_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iNXFjP)
I'm retaining the stock headlight shell that works well for a junction box with all wires feeding through the Molex connectors to the handlebar switches. The 15, 12, and 3 pin 0.093" Molex connectors that you can buy today are dimensionally the same as those installed 45 years earlier.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49758230503_8170df4cd2_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iNXWnV)
Starting to take shape...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49759001472_fd6f62dc34_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iP2Tyu)
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Nice looking mufflers, what is the make?
Bike looks great, your getting real close.
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Nice looking mufflers, what is the make?
Thanks Jim. I have no idea about the mufflers, there is absolutely no markings on them anywhere. They're in good structural condition (no rust, dents, broken brackets) but the chrome is discolored on the right muffler from something that may have slipped on them over the years in storage. I don't think there was much road time on them.
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Thanks Jim. I have no idea about the mufflers, there is absolutely no markings on them anywhere. They're in good structural condition (no rust, dents, broken brackets) but the chrome is discolored on the right muffler from something that may have slipped on them over the years in storage. I don't think there was much road time on them.
They look like the same Emgo "long reverse cone megaphone" mufflers I've put on a few bikes.
https://www.amazon.com/Chrome-Megaphone-Muffler-Prime-80-84034/dp/B000GU25XE
Decent muffler for the price, care needs to be taken with the "channel" where the mounting bracket attaches or it can fracture.
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Thanks Charlie -that's exactly what I have. I can see why the channel may be problematic over time.
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Thanks Charlie -that's exactly what I have. I can see why the channel may be problematic over time.
The supplied nuts only contact the channel in small spots and vibration can cause it to fracture around them. I made one long strip of steel that fits into the channel tight, with a holes drilled and tapped into it. Spreads out the stress so it doesn't crack.
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The supplied nuts only contact the channel in small spots and vibration can cause it to fracture around them. I made one long strip of steel that fits into the channel tight, with a holes drilled and tapped into it. Spreads out the stress so it doesn't crack.
Great suggestion, I'll add that to the 'list'!
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This is looking and sounding so good shiskowd, just good work.
Best,
Rob
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Charlie,
Glad you chimed in on identifying the canisters, I need a replacement set for the 'Vert and I these will do nicely.
Thanks,
Rob
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Work on the wiring harness continues. All 'input' and 'output' wiring is color coded to make for easy construct and troubleshooting somewhere down the road if needed.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49824393357_1ee85bc321_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iUP3hM)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49824393312_246b8b9145_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iUP3h1)
To take advantage of the M Units capabilities, momentary handle bar switches are preferred but the unit can be setup to use standard bar switches. The Motogadet momentary bar switches are high quality but the miniature size is a challenge to put together. One side of all the 'input' switches are grounded requiring fewer 22 gauge wires back to the central unit.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49824393277_3332a813a7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iUP3gp)
3 momentary switches on the left bar, top one is for the horn. 2 switches on the right side, bottom one does double duty for the starter and kill switch, top one for light control (on/off, high/low beam).
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49823542483_3be2f825fc_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iUJFmx)
M Unit and wiring terminations, top row is the outputs (18 gauge), bottom is the 22 gauge inputs. Only a single 30A fuse is required for the +12V feed to the unit, all circuit protection is integral to the M Unit.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49824071401_cba6f6daae_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iUMozP)
Getting close. Ran the engine through another heat cycle to test the final wiring. All that is remaining is some work on the front brake (new fluid, caliper alignment), fender install, new grips with heaters and the tank/toolbox installation when the paint work is completed. Also waiting for a VIN number assignment so I can register the bike in Alberta.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49824071446_e06baed129_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iUMoAA)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49824071496_74c151fd51_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iUMoBs)
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Your bike is looking absolutely beautiful. :thumb:
In one of your earlier posts you brought up the issue of measuring the cam bearing diameters and what could be done if they were out of spec. Did you ever find an answer? I am rebuilding my 79 SP 1000 and I have some light scoring on the front cam bearing surface. Otherwise all bearing surfaces are good. At 41,000mi the sludge trap had almost nothing in it.
I am also curious about vapor honing. I've seen on several peoples threads where the cam bearing surface was vapor honed along with the rest of the engine case and I've wondered if that is a wise thing to do or does it do no harm?
Thanks for all the great pictures. Your thread is providing us all with valuable information.
Mark
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The bike looks fantastic, super clean electrical work :thumb:
with respect to vapour honing (vapour blasting) the process will not damage any bearing surfaces, it only removes the oxidation from the casting. It will remove paint but it takes a very long time to get paint off with this process, much better to use chemical stripper or soda blasting to get paint off. Vapour blasting will not damage plastic parts or brass. I find it will dull stainless steel but it hardly dulls good chrome at all. Cleans rust off carbon steel pretty quickly. Vapour honing cleans up brass or plated electrical contacts very quickly, works great of fuse blocks, electrical switches, etc....
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Mark, pleased my journey is helping others with theirs. Jim answered your question about vapor honing/blasting the engine cases.
Regarding the cam bearing measurements, I concluded the following in the absence of having the right tools to measure this. The fitting clearance for both ends of the cam journals and the case housing is 0.025-0.066mm. The thinnest feeler gauge that I have measures 0.04mm. After I thoroughly cleaned up the journals and house with brake cleaner to remove any oil film I could not get the feeler gauge between cam journal and the housing. Not perfect way to measure as the total clearance would only be measurable for a few degrees along the radius, much narrower that my feeler gauge. To me it provided some degree of comfort I didn't have excessive clearance. There was only a slight up/down movement with the bearings dry. When I applied the assembly lube there was no appreciable movement due to the oil film which is exactly the lubes purpose.
You'd have a oil filter in you SP, my 850T doesn't and my sludge trap was 1/3 full with similar mileage as your bike. I was comfortable buttoning it up as it was. Plus, what could one do to remedy excessive clearance?? The aluminum housing would wear more than the iron camshaft. Is there a fix other than replacing the engine case?!
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The bike looks fantastic, super clean electrical work :thumb:
Thanks Jim. Just waiting for Craig to finish up with the tank and tool boxes and one last order for MGC for a rear brake switch and intake manifold gaskets. I already have the new VIN number - that was painless if not inexpensive. I need to do some more work on the headlight housing. The shell is slightly out of round compared to the chrome ring that holds the lamp. The previous owner had used construction adhesive to hold it together - that took a couple evenings to clean out!
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Plus, what could one do to remedy excessive clearance?? The aluminum housing would wear more than the iron camshaft. Is there a fix other than replacing the engine case?!
Line bore and new collects that are reamed to size. Prob brass or a bearing alloy
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I haven't posted for some time, waiting for the last bits to arrive to finish what I planned this 'winter'. Progress these last weeks:
- New waffle grips installed on top of Heat Demon grip heaters
- Installed additional intake manifold gaskets and insulating washers
- Replaced brake fluid and shimmed from brake caliper. The PO 20 years earlier had bought a new Brembo master cylinder (it's 12 or 13mm, not sure which) and newer style front caliper. There are 0 miles on the caliper, pads are brand new.
- Messed around with the headlight shell - it wasn't entirely round causing some fitment issues with the chrome ring and other pieces. There's 2x as many parts to this stock headlight as there needs to be...
- Craig at Bentley's finished my tank and toolboxes. He did an incredible job considering how messed up the tank was underneath the old paint a layers of body filler. I had no idea how bad the tank was. He took a bunch of pictures, one below.
- Installed the toolboxes and test fit the fuel tank.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49936941652_59281b0e6e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2j5KSYC)
Now that I turned the toolboxes around...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49939738953_27e13cb1db_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2j61dvX)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49940542317_68dc7e4a8f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2j65kk4)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49936892397_40756bed81_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2j5KCkp)
All that is left is to pick up a few barrel washers to fasten the tank badges more securely, install the mirrors when the adapters arrive (the Brembo MC and clutch lever have left hand mirror threads - go figure) and get the required out of province vehicle inspection complete so I can register a plate.
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The bike looks fantastic :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Craig has done another outstanding paint job (hopefully he can get my Laverda parts done now :laugh:), and your workmanship has transformed a worn out lump into a beauty!
Looking forward to your 1st ride report
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That is pretty. Very nice work. Going to be fun being on the road on that beauty.
jdg
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Great job. I have a T as well. Sorry to bring it up but is there a reason you have the tool boxes on the wrong sides?
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Its a shame so many Ts are customized these days, because as we can see here, a well restored one is a thing of beauty. What a marvelous job!
Tell me, did you buy a new rear fender, or did you polish the old one. If you polished it, how did you go about it?
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Great job. I have a T as well. Sorry to bring it up but is there a reason you have the tool boxes on the wrong sides?
Sigh.... :violent1: sometimes my rookie'ness oozes out in all directions... Thanks for explaining why the fit seemed a bit odd!
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The bike looks fantastic :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Craig has done another outstanding paint job (hopefully he can get my Laverda parts done now :laugh:), and your workmanship has transformed a worn out lump into a beauty!
Looking forward to your 1st ride report
Thanks Jim. He mentioned you had some work in progress. Craig is a character but he certainly is passionate about his work. I like to bring some camera flash gear and photograph parts of his 'museum'. The old barn has some unique pieces.
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Its a shame so many Ts are customized these days, because as we can see here, a well restored one is a thing of beauty. What a marvelous job!
Tell me, did you buy a new rear fender, or did you polish the old one. If you polished it, how did you go about it?
Thanks Dave. I didn't replace the fender but it's not the original. I found a receipt that suggests a used fender was purchased by the PO in 1998. The bike sat dormant shortly after until now so it didn't get much use on this bike. Once I clean 20 years of shop grime off it polished up very well with light cleaning wax. I buffed up a few areas with a polishing wheel and red rouge polish. I believe there is better polish for stainless steel you may want to try that should give a good result.
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Craig is a character but he certainly is passionate about his work.
Yep on both counts!
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Outstanding :thumb: :thumb:
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Very nice.
Im desperatly trying not to do a complete nut and bolt resto on my V7 Sport.
Watching all the excellent work on this board makes it increasingly difficult.
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Shake down first ride today! I don't receive my left/right thread adapters for the chrome mirrors I purchased so I rigged up a Ram mount for a DoubleTake mirror off my enduro bike. The tank badge clips were past their prime and I didn't want to risk losing the badges so I left them off until I source some new barrel clips. After I installed the fuel tank I re-sync'd the carbs to compensate for any throttle cable play that had been taken up with the tank in place. I adjusted the idle mixture screws to achieve the highest RPM (per Guzziology) and adjusted the throttle to 1,100 RPM.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49954025112_804341f282_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2j7gri3)
I've been anticipating this day for many months, since the first day I drug the bike home last August. I have never driven a Guzzi before, the oldest street bike I've ridden were V4 Honda Interceptors from the mid 80's - those bikes had developed a bunch in the decade since the 850T was produced. I really didn't know what to expect...
:grin:
I was pleasantly surprised at how effortless the first few minutes went , somehow anticipating all sorts of calamity like stalling due to grabby clutch, brakes that were wooden & ineffective and transmission stuck in one gear. None of which materialized!
Here's a video of the first few minutes >>> https://youtu.be/Ux9fiz6Mwcc (https://youtu.be/Ux9fiz6Mwcc)
So far so good. Running a tad rich which is what I expected with the stock jetting at 3,500 ft. Chassis is very sorted, front brake is very good, rear brake about what I imagined, tranny requires deliberate inputs. The ergonomics is a bit cramped for my 6'2" frame but overall provides a very unique riding experience.
More to come when I get it fully registered and have more seat time.
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An excellent outcome!!
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Perfect. I see you improved the front brake. Great job!
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Looks great.
You know as a aside.. Looking at that tank without the emblem, I can kinda see where MG got the inspiration from for the newer V9's tank.
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Really nice! :thumb: :thumb:
Glad to see a 850T saved and returned to original, its a pretty rare bike, I like the rear 2LS brake, very attractive, and the tool boxes are very stylish. I always thought the T was basically a V7 Sport with better ergonomics for those not wanting to be bent over and equipped with better brakes.
So now that you have completed your first Guzzi restoration what's next?
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I have a couple hundred km's behind me now and thoroughly enjoying riding it. The bike handles so well, so responsive to inputs, a real riders machine to those who appreciate. The engine seems to have broke in well, starts with a few revolutions with the choke on, settles into a nice idle. Once warm the fueling seems to be good, no stumbling just feels a bit rich to me below 3,000 RPM with 1/4 throttle. I dropped the needle to the leanest setting, may change the pilot jet next.
There is a noticeable valve noise radiating from the valve covers which I understand is a trait of these engines but not having any previous experience I'm unsure. I've re-torqued the heads twice, adjusted the valves each time and checked the clearances a few more times. Maybe I'm being over cautious.
So now that you have completed your first Guzzi restoration what's next?
I'm working on that, stay tuned...
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There is a noticeable valve noise radiating from the valve covers which I understand is a trait of these engines but not having any previous experience I'm unsure.
When I got my T someone had coated the inside of the valve covers with a hi-temp silicone, to dampen the valve noise. The coating is still there, 40 years on. I don't know what the clatter sounds like without that stuff, but it's never distracted me.
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That's one elegant looking T! Very classy!
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Fabulous bike! And the red tin with gold striping is tasty.
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A few more pictures now that I have the badges and mirrors on.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49989613263_2f3421deb3_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2japQpR)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49990133626_5c83f3cef2_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jasv6C)
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As this thread is drawing to conclusion I wanted to say a big THANK YOU to all WG community for all your support and encouragement along this journey, I'm in your debt :bow:.
Particularly:
- Canuck750 for being 'just down the road', vapor blasting my engine, donating a near new flywheel and pointing me to many helpful local businesses.
- Charlie for your willingness to share your vast experience and a couple of those hard to find speedo drive washers.
- Dave Swanson for pointing me to ebay list and other sellers for hard to find pieces.
And all the rest who pointed out my mistakes and offered advice - thank you! :bow:
As for what's next, a bit of a departure from an Italian V-twin. I've been searching for a bike I have wanted to own since they were introduced while I was in high school - '79 Honda CBX1000. I found this pair from a local collector who finally determined that he'd never get around to restoring so he sent them my way. Bike on the right is almost complete with a box of accompanying parts. The unit on the left is largely a parts bike due to some trouble in the engine that I'll attempt to resolve. I'll post a link to a thread on cbxclub.com that will chart my progress in, hoping to attract even a fraction of the support from that community that I found here. :azn:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50003791991_96c8ac8c70_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jbEvfF)
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Fantastic job Devin :thumb:
Should I mention I punted a 1978 CBX as a 23 yo from 1983 to 1990+ and it never got spared, commuter, tourer and drag racer.
I know them down to the crankshaft.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/time_warp1959/misc/tr5t/my_pictures_copy1.jpg)
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Very cool new project. That is one of those bikes I've always wanted to throw a leg over. Has a line on one, then the owner died. Don't know what happened to it after that as his family didn't like the fact that he rode, worked on, and helped others with their motorcycles.
Congrats on getting the T to looks so good. That was an amazing job.
jdg
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Great choice for your next project Devin :thumb:
I have always admired the early CBX, I bet you will turn out one of the best examples when you are done.
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Les, I haven't quite got it to the crankshaft yet but making progress.
Follow the fun at this site > https://www.cbxclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=11699&sid=c746a06bbd3864f3157a1aefd80612e0 (https://www.cbxclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=11699&sid=c746a06bbd3864f3157a1aefd80612e0)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50003827031_836963ea44_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jbEFEP)
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I have owned 3 CBXs and performed complete restorations on 2 of them. Great fun, but I wouldn't care to do it again.
My 1980 was my favorite.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtPFQPvC/Scan-20180827.png) (https://postimg.cc/7G3PDBHr)
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My 1980 was my favorite.
Nice looking bike, Dave. That's the end goal at this point.
It will be interesting to see what the alternator coupler face looks like.
I remember back in the mid 1980's, a complete engine gasket set for my Ducati 900 SD was the same cost as a CBX head gasket (NZ$90)
I haven't gotten to the coupler yet - I know they are problematic. There are some decent aftermarket alternators now that eliminate the plates if mine are bad.
There is certainly no deals like those on NOS CBX parts. Parts are expensive, and dealing with 6 cyl's and 24 valves things add up quickly.