Roy's Eldorado Adventure

[Kiwi_Roy]

I decided to rename this thread since I have a feeling it will be an ongoing saga  ???

Exhibit "A" $200 and counting.
The Old Girl has patina in spades
Vin No 50580


I recently purchased this 72 Eldorado from the origin owner for the princely sum of $200, apparently it was the first of it's kind in Vancouver.
My riding buddy offered to pick it up for me so we loaded it in the back of his pickup, she repaid him by leaking the contents of the sump, the blackest nastiest oil you can imagine into the truck bed where it ran into the tailgate, he will never have to worry about that rusting out. The first thing I did was rip off about 50 lb of rusty iron brackets and numerous after market lights. The project was put on hold for a few months while fussing over our Daughters wedding but I did get to strip down some of the electrics, the starter and generator are ready to go.

Today I decided to pull the engine but I'm unable to budge the front engine bolt, the nut on LH is off, I tried beating on it using a brass drift, using a long wrench on the RH side I can feel the bolt torque about 5 degrees so it's not stuck in the engine, just at the left side, Is there something I am missing, is it threaded into the left hand rail?

Question 2
   The bike has the dreaded chrome bores, Mongoose a local engine re-builder offerers a de-chrome and Nikasil process for about $375 per cylinder so it's quite a bit less expensive than new parts. What are the thoughts on using the original pistons and rings in a nikasil bore?

[smdl]

Hi, Roy.

The bolt doesn't thread into the frame rail, and should come out with a little persuasion. They can become seized, but as you say it can rotate slightly, it doesn't sound like that is the case.  Try soaking it in some penetrating oil for awhile, and trying it again.

With regard to the chrome bores, for the cost you are describing, I would strongly recommend that you consider a new set of Gilardonis:

http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=2129

Not much more, and you get new pistons, rings, etc., in addition to the cylinders.  If MG is out of stock, it might not be too long until they get them back in.  Others might have them as well.

Hope you have as much fun with your Eldo project as I had with mine!

Shaun

[pehayes]

Because of the disparity of metals, I suspect the bolt is corroded into the timing chest cover rather than into the frame pieces.  Try LOTS of penetrant.  50/50 of ATF and Acetone is highly recommended.  Use heat, but apply it only to the aluminum and keep a wet rag on the steel bolt.  You want to expand the aluminum hole without expanding the bolt itself.  Patience is your friend.  Heat, cool, heat, cool, rinse, repeat.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Demar]

I've had great success with this stuff.... Kroil

http://www.kanolabs.com/msn/

[Kiwi_Roy]

Thanks guys, I soaked the thread in penetrating oil, if it doesn't shift in a couple of days I might drill a small hole into one of the spacers to get oil in the back side.
I hear you on the cylinders, I will phone around as MGC are out of stock, a good friend suggested I inspect the bearings first.

[Perazzimx14]

Harpers and Moto International are also parts sources for cylinders.

Before you check the bearings:

1. Pull the cylinders and see if and/or how much chrome has peeled.
2. Drain the oil through several layers of cheese cloth and inspect it for debris.
3. Pull the oil pan and check it for debris.

If a lot of chrome has peeled and you are getting flecks in the cheese cloth and oil pan then move on to the bearings. If no chrome or even a few small spots has peeled there is no fear of it contaminating the engine.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Question 2
   The bike has the dreaded chrome bores, Mongoose a local engine re-builder offerers a de-chrome and Nikasil process for about $375 per cylinder so it's quite a bit less expensive than new parts. What are the thoughts on using the original pistons and rings in a nikasil bore?

Last I had some done, Millennium Technologies charged $209.90 retail per cylinder, IIRC Harper's offers replating at a similar cost. I only reuse the original pistons if they measure within the specs found in the factory manual. This not only includes the piston's diameter, but also the ring groove width as well. No way would I reuse the rings. New rings from Harper's or MG Cycle are the only way to go with replated cylinders.

The only way to be really sure of the engine's condition is to completely disassemble it. Even if chrome flakes haven't been chewing on various components, there could be damage or the potential for it. I'd want to have a look inside the sludge trap to see how full it is, this requires the crankshaft be removed completely. If the sludge trap is even 1/2 full, it can block the oil passages to the rod bearings.  

[Andrew Thomas Evans]

I'd make sure the engine is getting a little support from a jack and the bike is resting in the wheel stand as well as maybe put some supports on the back rails. This way you can take some of the stress off that bolt and it could come out easier. Either way though, I usually take a larger punch and larger hammer and drive the deal out, sometimes with cussing. Don't hit the threads on the end and you're fine.

As far as the engine, IMO, you're looking at a good opportunity to rebuild it as the heads are more than likely wore out and you're doing the cylinders anyway. As others have said, check the bearings and stuff for flakes, and replace if needed.

[canuck750]

Hi Roy,

I hope you have better luck with the bottom end on your Eldo than I have had. The Sport motor I am currently rebuilding requires oversize main and shell bearings and the oil pump was beyond spec. Same for my Eldorado and the Sport I finished last year. I went with Giladorni kits on all three motors. I have a top notch machine shop here that can recoat the cylinders but I would still be running old pistons and pins and have to buy new rings, not any real savings + running worn pistons.

If you are shelling out for cylinders then pull  the crank, clean the sludge pump and have a machinist measure your crank, mains and shells to determine if they are in spec. I pay about $250.00 to have a crank ground.

For heads I found it cheaper to buy new valves than mess around with grinding the old ones, buy new springs and replace the guides. A machine shop can face the seats for pretty cheap. From what I have read the guides wear quickly and most need to be replaced.

P.S. have the new pistons and your old rods weighed to check they are of equal weight before you assemble the motor.

Cheers

Jim

[travelingbyguzzi]

Roy, have you removed the transmission mount bolt? Are things in a bind because of that?
It makes no difference regarding your problem, and probably makes no difference at any point, but the 3 Guzzi engines I have messed with all have the bolt inserted from the left with the nut on the right hand side. Is there a wrong side for some reason that I don't understand?

Bill

[Kiwi_Roy]

Maybe that's it, too much leverage on the bolt, I will try taking some weight off the engine as Andrew and Bill suggest.

Yet another Question
       Will the driveshaft to gearbox come apart when I pull on the engine or do I need to pull the back wheel and shaft before pulling the motor.

I did check the bores, no flaking yet but there's  couple of small areas where the chrome looks quite frosty. As I modified the first post all the oil ran out into Ross's truck bed, into the tailgate and marked our progress back to the garage, a last defiant act.

Real men don't read the manuals  ;D

[Andrew Thomas Evans]

Well...

First off get yourself a manual, should be easy to find online or this old tractor. You will need it to put things back together, if for nothing else than to cross things off as you're going along and to make notes.

afaik the rear end needs to come out, then the transmission, then the engine. Also, I guess it helps to jack up the rear of the engine to lift up the tranny in order to pull it out easily. So you may want to leave that bolt in for now.

[canuck750]

You will need to remove the rear wheel and swing arm prior to attempting to remove the transmission. If you leave the front engine blot in place, remove the transmission through bolt and tip the engine / transmission up the transmission can then be removed separate from the engine. Its easier to take the transmission out 1st, then the engine as a separate unit. You will need to remove the generator and carbs before you tip the engine/transmission up.

Jim

[Chuck in Indiana]

So, Roy.. you do have the engine sitting on a block, right? That way the only load on the mounting bolt is from the weight of the frame, etc.

[Kiwi_Roy]

At the moment I still have the rear bolt loosely in place
It's still sitting on the wheels at the moment, I assumed incorrectly that the engine and gearbox would come out as one lump, I have a lot to learn.
Cylinders are off, the carbs came in a box of parts.
I have a manual, I will read it on the commute home.

So the rear wheel, driveshaft and swingarm come off first, then the gearbox.

Actually the manuals show two guys lifting the engine gearbox out with the swingarm still in place.

Thanks Guys

[smdl]

At the moment I still have the rear bolt loosely in place
It's still sitting on the wheels at the moment, I assumed incorrectly that the engine and gearbox would come out as one lump, I have a lot to learn.
Cylinders are off, the carbs came in a box of parts.
I have a manual, I will read it on the commute home.

So the rear wheel, driveshaft and swingarm come off first, then the gearbox.

Thanks Guys

Some light reading on Skytrain?   :)

Shaun

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Pulled two looper motors W/O pulling the swing arm . Been awhile so don't remember every detail , but don't think we had to do that . Actually thought it easier than crabbing a Tonti frame .
Dusty


Sent from a submarine in Oklahoma .

You can do it, but the two together are very heavy and the chance of scratching and busting things are good. Better to remove the rear wheel, rear drive, swingarm, transmission and then the engine. If there's no helper available, before I lift the engine out, the clutch and flywheel come off too .

[Kiwi_Roy]

Some light reading on Skytrain?   

Shaun

Yes, I almost slept past my stop.



After soaking the bolt all night I thought I would have another go. I put the jack under the engine and took some weight off.
Standing on a 2 foot lever all the bolt did was creak a bit. Eventually the head stripped off the bolt, one of those ones with just a half height hex. Deciding that the bolt was toast anyway I pulled out an 18 inch pipe wrench that didn't budge it either, it's absolutely welded to the bushing in the LH rail.
Next step will be to cut through the spacers and bolt on either side of the crankcase.
There's something to be said for a bit of neversiez or grease on the bolts

Charlie,
           I'm not too worried about scratching the Duco on this one, it will just add to the patina.
It should be a lot lighter without the top end and starter / generator.
I'll try in one piece first, then I'll do it right ~;

[Chuck in Indiana]

Roy, if you want to do it in one piece, you can just lift the frame off the motive unit from here. After you get that bolt out, of course.  ;D I sprayed every fastener on this fine specimen with AeroQroil and let it sit for a week before starting. Came right apart.. ;D

[Cam3512]

Don't jack the engine TOO much, you'll bind the bolt in the opposite direction.

Keep applying penetrating oil.

Heat the aluminum  block where the bolt runs through.

Drive the bolt out from the nut side.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Don't jack the engine TOO much, you'll bind the bolt in the opposite direction.

Keep applying penetrating oil.

Heat the aluminum  block where the bolt runs through.

Drive the bolt out from the nut side.

No I just took the weight
I don't have a gas axe and the bolt is now toast so I will either extract it by drilling through the frame bushings from either direction or cutting through the spacers.
Once I have the motor out I should be able to deal with the remains of the bolt.

Chuck,
         That looks like the way to go, I need to strip down the frame at some point anyway.
Everything else I have pulled off seemed to come quite easily, just this one bolt so far.
A fine looking machine you have there.

[Andrew Thomas Evans]

Or, once you're ready, just take the front cover off and let that stay in place, remove the rest of the engine, then really have a good shot getting after that bolt issue.

 ;-T



Also this is well worth the money - http://www.scramblercycle.com/alt-conversion.html

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Roy, if you want to do it in one piece, you can just lift the frame off the motive unit from here. After you get that bolt out, of course.  ;D I sprayed every fastener on this fine specimen with AeroQroil and let it sit for a week before starting. Came right apart.. ;D

On a Loop, you can't "just lift the frame off the motive unit", the "motive unit" must be removed from the frame. No removable lower frame rails like a Tonti remember.

[Tobit]

It took a long time for that bolt to seize, it may take a few days soaking to break it free.  Lay the bike on it's side and keep hitting the bolt with Pblaster every chance you get for a few days.  If you can, put a gear puller on it so that it's pushing the bolt out.  Give the puller a little turn every so often as you're adding Pblaster.

It should come out without any further heroics.  Standing on a 2 foot breaker bar I'd expect to ruin something!

Good luck, maybe there's a loop project in my future too.  Discs and a hack.

Tobit

[Chuck in Indiana]

On a Loop, you can't "just lift the frame off the motive unit", the "motive unit" must be removed from the frame. No removable lower frame rails like a Tonti remember.

No doubt you're right, Charlie.. it's been a while since I did this one, but don't remember it being any big deal to get apart..

[Kiwi_Roy]

On Thursday I decided I had put it off long enough

At first I tried drilling the bolt but found it too hard to keep the drill aligned

So then I just cut through the spacer and bolt on either side with my trusty hacksaw.

 
And pretty soon had it out of there, I may have scratched the paint a little in the process. It came out really easy but I think it would be dificult to put back the same way. Without the cylinders, starter and generator I was able to manage the weight quite easily.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Sometimes, brute force wins the day.  ;D :BEER:

[Lannis]

Sometimes, brute force wins the day.  ;D :BEER:

Like taking a Silentbloc swingarm out of an old BSA.   Usually takes fire, saws, and a huge hammer.

Roy, did you figure out where the bond was that was holding the bolt so tight ... ?

Lannis

[Kiwi_Roy]

Like taking a Silentbloc swingarm out of an old BSA.   Usually takes fire, saws, and a huge hammer.

Roy, did you figure out where the bond was that was holding the bolt so tight ... ?

Lannis

I haven't had time yet, the bolt is really rusted to the boss in the LH rail for sure, I was able to wind up the bolt from the RH side I suspect it's free on that side at least half way across the motor, it would spring back at least 5°.
I will try to remove the various parts this evening.

Update:
The bolt through the LH rail was frozen but came out with a few taps.
It was the remains of the aluminium spacer which proved the most difficult, It wouldn't shift with a hammer and drift, I had to split it off with hacksaw cuts.
Once I got rid of the remains of the spacer the section through the engine came out very easily.

From my conversation with the original owner the engine has been there since 72

The remaining oil in the sump was like black chewing gum, and the exterior is filthy, off to the car wash in the morning.
 

[Stormtruck2]

Like taking a Silentbloc swingarm out of an old BSA.   Usually takes fire, saws, a huge hammer and the sacrifice of a virgin.

Lannis

Fixed it for you.  Its even harder to do today, its harder to find virgins.  ::) :D