U.S. Lawsuit against Screaming Eagle aftermarket parts, emissions

[rodekyll]

I don't see a lot of difference between faking the computer settings to pass emissions and selling an emissions-compliant bike with the intention of making it non-compliant as part of the sale.  It's deliberate cheating at a corporate scale.

Also -- I read above where the sales of this sort of stuff -- 1/3 revenue -- is 'peripheral' sales, meaning inconsequential or minimal.  I wouldn't see a third of my business as 'peripheral'.  In a world where 60% or more of business revenue goes up in taxes and overhead, I'd see 1/3 as my entire earnings.  I think this will hurt Harley.  I think it will also give them the message that they have too much dependence on fluff and trinkets.

[ITSec]

One of the intriguing questions coming out of this 'consent agreement' is whether companies like DynoJet will be affected. The important part is that of the statement:

"This settlement immediately stops the sale of illegal after-market defeat devices used on public roads that threaten the air we breathe," said Cynthia Giles, assistant administrator for EPA�s Office of Enforcement and Compliance Assurance.

In a separate statement, the company said it has sold the product for more then 20 years under an accepted regulatory approach that permitted the sale of competition-only parts and said it believed it was legal to use in race conditions in the United States.

I'd find that defense difficult to accept given the numbers of the products sold by HD - some 340,000 since 2008 according to the stories published. I somehow don't believe there are 340,000 dedicated racing motorcycles of all brands combined, let alone Harleys by themselves.

The important question is whether the precedent will be used to pressure other makers of devices that modify tuning of vehicles subject to emission regulation. If so, many players in the market, from DynoJet to Superchips to who knows who will all be under threat. Thankfully, map modification by individual owners would not be affected since the sharing of things like software and data is largely protected speech - and each owner would need to be individually investigated and prosecuted. It's the sellers of commercial products that have thunderclouds gathering overhead...

[charlie b]

They must have ticked off the same people VW did.

[rocker59]

I don't see a lot of difference between faking the computer settings to pass emissions and selling an emissions-compliant bike with the intention of making it non-compliant as part of the sale.  It's deliberate cheating at a corporate scale.

Also -- I read above where the sales of this sort of stuff -- 1/3 revenue -- is 'peripheral' sales, meaning inconsequential or minimal.  I wouldn't see a third of my business as 'peripheral'.  In a world where 60% or more of business revenue goes up in taxes and overhead, I'd see 1/3 as my entire earnings.  I think this will hurt Harley.  I think it will also give them the message that they have too much dependence on fluff and trinkets.

25% in my example  ($1B of a $4B total), but I didn't include Parts & Accessories, which adds somewhere around another $1B.

And, Screaming Eagle tuners are only a fraction of overall revenue in the Parts & Accessories department.

Now, if they ban Chrome.  Now that would hurt!  LOL!   

[rocker59]

The important question is whether the precedent will be used to pressure other makers of devices that modify tuning of vehicles subject to emission regulation. If so, many players in the market, from DynoJet to Superchips to who knows who will all be under threat. Thankfully, map modification by individual owners would not be affected since the sharing of things like software and data is largely protected speech - and each owner would need to be individually investigated and prosecuted. It's the sellers of commercial products that have thunderclouds gathering overhead...

The "For Off Road Use Only" exemption will have to be removed from the books.

Otherwise, 3rd party companies don't know what the end-user will do with the product.

The issue at hand is Harley and Harley Dealers knowingly sending new street machines out the door with Off Road accessories installed.

[atavar]

Just pass a law that exhaust without baffles or with removable baffles can't be shiny.. then they won't want them any more.. 

[LowRyter]

"Harley did not admit liability, and said in a statement it disagrees with the government's position arguing that the devices were designed and sold to be used in "competition only.""

All those competition ready choppers and baggers.  Not that I have any room to throw stones with my bikes for that matter.   

[redrider]

Did any one catch this in the replies?

"




MillionDollarBonus_   falconer  •Aug 18, 2016 10:44 AM





The whole biker culture is cesspit of backward right wing views, vulgar masculinity, and climate change denial. It's part of the same white trash subculture that consistently prevents us from introducing sensible gun control laws to put a stop to the epidemic of gun violence in America. Groups like this need to be monitored and kept in line, before they become emboldened and commit some kind of horrendous terror attack against our government.

[oldbike54]

 Yes Red , but maybe we decided to ignore that comment .

 Dusty

[HDGoose]

That plan would require Federal enforcement of EPA regs at a consumer level.  Not gonna happen anytime soon.

EPA/DOT/etc. regulate what companies sell to consumers.  They don't regulate what consumers do with the product.

Consumer regulations fall to The States, some of which do check for EPA/DOT compliance to various degrees.

Many don't.  And many won't. 

Local example:  my town has a noise ordinance.  It's basically unenforced throughout the year.  And, is actually put on pause for a week during our big "Bikes, Blues, & BBQ" rally each September.  I (and many locals) usually leave town for someplace quiet.

The EPA has all but shut down the aftermarket tuners for automobiles in the USA. Folks are now ordering 'off road diesel kits' from Korea. Those kits replace the troublesome emissions stuff that do not work in the long term. Making expensive vehicles almost worthless after the warranty is up.

[Kev m]

The EPA has all but shut down the aftermarket tuners for automobiles in the USA. Folks are now ordering 'off road diesel kits' from Korea. Those kits replace the troublesome emissions stuff that do not work in the long term. Making expensive vehicles almost worthless after the warranty is up.

Actually do you really think that's true. Every automotive forum I frequent still talks about the availability of tuners?

Also, it should be noted that a number of Harley's late-model Screaming Eagle accessories (ok, I'm sure the minority, but a number) were tagged 50 state or 49 state Street Legal (largely a number of accessory mufflers).

[rodekyll]

Who's fooled by the chrome-and-black cruiser rider buying 'off-road-only' mufflers?  If you believe any more than that rider or the shop that sold the pipes that it will see more off-road than a tavern parking lot on burnout night, show hands, please.






































I didn't think so.

[LowRyter]

The EPA has all but shut down the aftermarket tuners for automobiles in the USA. Folks are now ordering 'off road diesel kits' from Korea. Those kits replace the troublesome emissions stuff that do not work in the long term. Making expensive vehicles almost worthless after the warranty is up.

I have to disagree.   There are tens of thousands that attend the SEMA show where there are hundreds of manufacturers that sell CARB approved aftermarket parts.

and now you did it.  You made me agree with Kev.   

[oldbike54]

 UH OH , that point of agreement might bring not only WG , but the entire internet crashing down .


                                                       Everybody DUCK !

 

  Dusty

[rodekyll]

I agreed with Kev once.  I think the topic was PIE!   

[ITSec]

and now you did it.  You made me agree with Kev.   

I've agreed with Kev lots of times - usually, when he's said something well enough I end up with nothing to add, so I never post in reply! 

Mind you, there's a bunch of times when I look at his sig photo and say to myself "can I believe anything that comes from that?"

Since I don't eat desserts, I have no opinion on pie. 

[Robert]

the sharing of things like software and data is largely protected speech

= = =

I agree, but the Feds may not.

Consider 3-D printer code for (EEK!) Guns.  This is declared exporting of defense material, and is outlawed.

PS, maybe lane splitting is considered 'off road'?????

[rodekyll]

If the sharing of things like software and data was protected under the constitution as free speech, then Microsoft couldn't enforce their copyright policies and google couldn't collect our data.  These companies in particular have made it very clear that software is a commercial commodity and data is an open resource to be mined.  They've successfully argued that in court continuously since their corporate inceptions, and they can't have it both ways.

$0.02

[Lannis]

Lots of Harley hate, there's even some on this site... Most who hate then have never ridden one..... I was told by a rider on a new Harley big twin my older Buell is a fake Harley..

That word "Hate" isn't even usable any more in today's world.

It's been co-opted by people who want to control others to "shut people up" by describing them as "haters" if they have a differing opinion on any subject than they do.   Sort of a "1984" thing.

Same thing with "racist", "sexist", anything with "phobe" in it, or "bigot".    For me, the concept of "I'll shut you up by shaming you with a mean name" is WAY played and doesn't affect me any more ....

I can say that I don't like loud bikes being revved at lights without being a "hater".

Lannis   

[HDGoose]

Did any one catch this in the replies?

"




MillionDollarBonus_   falconer  •Aug 18, 2016 10:44 AM





The whole biker culture is cesspit of backward right wing views, vulgar masculinity, and climate change denial. It's part of the same white trash subculture that consistently prevents us from introducing sensible gun control laws to put a stop to the epidemic of gun violence in America. Groups like this need to be monitored and kept in line, before they become emboldened and commit some kind of horrendous terror attack against our government.

When do criminals obey laws?

[HDGoose]

Actually do you really think that's true. Every automotive forum I frequent still talks about the availability of tuners?

Also, it should be noted that a number of Harley's late-model Screaming Eagle accessories (ok, I'm sure the minority, but a number) were tagged 50 state or 49 state Street Legal (largely a number of accessory mufflers).

The tuners today do not offer the same 'features'.

[Kev m]

The tuners today do not offer the same 'features'.

I'm not sure what you mean?

[Rough Edge racing]

That word "Hate" isn't even usable any more in today's world.

It's been co-opted by people who want to control others to "shut people up" by describing them as "haters" if they have a differing opinion on any subject than they do.   Sort of a "1984" thing.

Same thing with "racist", "sexist", anything with "phobe" in it, or "bigot".    For me, the concept of "I'll shut you up by shaming you with a mean name" is WAY played and doesn't affect me any more ....

I can say that I don't like loud bikes being revved at lights without being a "hater".

Lannis

 Don't most Harley's have that slow idle so when they are stopped for a light it sounds like an two cylinder JD tractor?  I want to go over and turn up their idle slightly so it runs smoother..
 My bikes are somewhat loud but I'm smart enough to tone it down in town ...
 Around here it seems almost all Harleys and Sport bikes have an after market exhaust. In fact a lot of PU trucks have loud exhausts...The clowns in their Ram Diesels with the loud "big rig sound" and gas engine Chevys with twice pipes...

[Charles in Lake Charles]

In fact a lot of PU trucks have loud exhausts...The clowns in their Ram Diesels with the loud "big rig sound" and gas engine Chevys with twice pipes.

Plus for the diesels spewing large clouds of black smoke.

[Kev m]

Don't most Harley's have that slow idle so when they are stopped for a light it sounds like an two cylinder JD tractor?  I want to go over and turn up their idle slightly so it runs smoother..
 

Depends on what you mean by most.

In theory nothing should have a very slow idle if set to spec, not in decades. Even since the 90's the idle setting on the carb models was at least 1k.

The EFI ones idle even a tad higher.

But a good percentage of owners thinks a slow loping idle (that mimics something with a hot cam) sounds cool and many with carbs do set it incorrectly low that reason.


And yeah, I generally think to myself "I could fix that for you". 

[HDGoose]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/harley-davidson-to-pay-dollar12-mln-fine-over-motorcycle-emissions/ar-BBvMpem?li=BBnbfcL

I'm not sure what you mean?

The tuners adjust less than before. Some limit the adjustments, others are simply no longer available, like removing the DEF/SCR monitoring. In my 2013 truck, some error codes DEF/SCR issues will cause the truck to go into limp mode, limited to 5 MPH, and requires a dealer to fix. Most independent shops do not have the resources to buy the new computers and/or software every year. The cost for dealerships is approaching $40k for software updates, so I am told by several multi-line dealerships. I have two friends who used to own successful independent shops that now work for dealers because they could not afford the computers now required.

[Kev m]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/harley-davidson-to-pay-dollar12-mln-fine-over-motorcycle-emissions/ar-BBvMpem?li=BBnbfcL
The tuners adjust less than before. Some limit the adjustments, others are simply no longer available, like removing the DEF/SCR monitoring. In my 2013 truck, some error codes DEF/SCR issues will cause the truck to go into limp mode, limited to 5 MPH, and requires a dealer to fix. Most independent shops do not have the resources to buy the new computers and/or software every year. The cost for dealerships is approaching $40k for software updates, so I am told by several multi-line dealerships. I have two friends who used to own successful independent shops that now work for dealers because they could not afford the computers now required.

Ah, ok, thanks for that clarification.

In both cases are we talking diesel only or diesel and gas?

FWIW, I was talking about owner purchased tuner software, like what Harley was selling or a half-dozen aftermarket companies sell, like the Dynojet Powervision. And the equivalents in the automotive world.

[wahoo650]

Don't most Harley's have that slow idle so when they are stopped for a light it sounds like an two cylinder JD tractor?  I want to go over and turn up their idle slightly so it runs smoother..
 My bikes are somewhat loud but I'm smart enough to tone it down in town ...
 Around here it seems almost all Harleys and Sport bikes have an after market exhaust. In fact a lot of PU trucks have loud exhausts...The clowns in their Ram Diesels with the loud "big rig sound" and gas engine Chevys with twice pipes...

That's "Parade mode".  ECU shuts down rear cylinder to prevent overheating.  Which is pretty much anytime you ride in stop and go traffic.

[chuck peterson]

It's interesting to me most of the discussion here has been about loudness, but the U.S. seems to be approaching this as a pollution issue...

Kinda like catching gangsters on tax evasion, not crime

[leafman60]

H-D has been skating on thin ice for a long time with their (wonderful) Screamin Eagle performance parts designated for "Racing Only."  How many Ultra Classic Limiteds have you seen on a racetrack???

The H-D aftermarket is so huge and the number of independent tuners so prevalent, I expect those parts/services will continue to be available.

Apparently, you will no longer be able to have official H-D dealers provide the re-mapping modules. Others, considered to be even better, are still out there on the market. 

Many of the H-D big bore kits etc are sold with the mapping modules and under the advice that re-mapping is necessary for proper operation.  I wonder how that will change.  Maybe they will sell the kits but without their Super/Race Tuner mapping modules and leave it up to the buyer to "work it out." We will see.

H-D makes a wonderful machine.  They outsell everybody and are targeted at the demographic profile that has allowed that.

However, properly set up, their bikes will run with anything out there. I've had them for many years along with about every other bike brand made and the H-D has proven to be the more trouble-free, reliable and easily serviced than anything made- by a long shot.

Most of the negative comments you hear on forum sites are from people who are either jealous or very ignorant. Some folks also think that in order to like one thing you must hate another and that's an attitude I classify as stupid.

There are positive aspects of just about any bike made. Heck, I even continue to own a couple of BMW's !! lol

.