U.S. Lawsuit against Screaming Eagle aftermarket parts, emissions

[GearheadGrrrl]

https://gearheadgrrrl.com/2016/08/18/is-the-epa-protectionist/

Compared to VW Group, HOG(NYSE) got off easy!

[charlie b]

Seems to me the EPA has begun to see how much power they can wield after their recent wins.

I would bet that they start hitting more and more mfgs of this kind of stuff as time goes on.  Soon I suspect it will be to "close the loophole" on the off road only type accessories.

Don't Europe and Britain have strict rules on this kind of stuff?  What are their penalties like?

[rocker59]

   Chevys with twice pipes...

Agitate the gravel and let them twice pipes roar, Daddy-O...

[Rough Edge racing]

Depends on what you mean by most.

In theory nothing should have a very slow idle if set to spec, not in decades. Even since the 90's the idle setting on the carb models was at least 1k.

The EFI ones idle even a tad higher.

But a good percentage of owners thinks a slow loping idle (that mimics something with a hot cam) sounds cool and many with carbs do set it incorrectly low that reason.


And yeah, I generally think to myself "I could fix that for you". 

 Most would mean custom Harleys, and it seems there's a lot of them around here...And it not a custom Harley, it's a newer Hayabusa or Kawa ZX with an extended swingarm and mega loud exhaust...Or a Ducati with after market mufflers, or the various Japanese V twin cruisers sounding like loud zero turn mowers....
 I enjoy the crisp sound of a highly tuned engine, but to me, loud pipes on a stock Harley or  truck/car just sounds like a junker with a rotted exhaust...

[Rough Edge racing]

Agitate the gravel and let them twice pipes roar, Daddy-O...

  Yes....

 I recently bought a 03 Silverado , 4.8 V-8 5 speed manual ...The previous owner installed a loud Cat Back twice pipe system...Some say nice sound...I dragged my butt under the truck and torched off the duals and put on a new single exhaust...I don't have to look over my shoulder for the cops when running it through the gears....And the duals don't make it run any better...

[leafman60]

By the way, on the loud pipes, H-D eliminated them from their own offerings years ago. 

The few Screamin Eagle mufflers still in their catalogs are supposedly compliant.  Not very loud even though, as with their stock systems, they flow pretty well. As a result, they are not big sellers in the aftermarket exhaust field these days.  Plenty of other players still there.

I too agree about obnoxiously loud pipes.  However, I have non-stock exhausts systems on my Guzzis as well as my H-Ds and practically all of my bikes. The custom system I used to have on my Daytona RS was on par with the loudest of any H-D set-up!

The problem is how the operator uses the free-flowing louder pipes.

Idiots like to whack down on them in highly-populated areas like shopping centers and downtown city locations. You don't need to do that! If you moderate the throttle, you will not make as much repulsive noise.

Out on the open road, away from these highly-populated places, you are less likely to offend with these exhausts.

Like many other things, an irresponsible minority of fools create problems for everyone else.

[oldbike54]

 The amusing thing here is the fact that most HD riders never use the "improved" performance offered by these devices . Seriously , at least around here it is unusual to encounter a Milwaukee Twin actually running at or even near the speed limit . Not knocking that , it just seems silly to spend money for a couple of extra Shetlands that will never leave the barn . There was a guy here that spent $10K installing a 120 CI aftermarket motor in his Alphabet Glide (TM) . The couple of times I rode with him and his buddies they were rocketing along at 55 MPH . I asked him if he ever really used the performance , he said "No , just nice to know it's there"  Meanwhile , I am
"using" every one of the 39 Shetlands corralled in the beater /5 and wondering why these new bikes can't or won't go more than 55 ???

 Dusty

[LowRyter]

I would bet that the profit margin on all this screaming eagle stuff is about 5 times more than selling bikes.

[oldbike54]

I would bet that the profit margin on all this screaming eagle stuff is about 5 times more than selling bikes.

 Ron tells me that the dealer where he works is now selling bikes at below retail . Interesting to watch the trend over the last 25 years or so . In the 1990's most dealers were selling bikes at significantly above retail , then about what, 2002 or so, most dealers were selling at retail . Now we are witnessing dealers selling at below retail . Heck , this trend keeps up , maybe HD's will be considered a bargain 

 Dusty

[rocker59]

I would bet that the profit margin on all this screaming eagle stuff is about 5 times more than selling bikes.

What are you trying to say, here?

Would you rather have 20% of $15,000 a few hundred thousand times.  Or, 50% of $200 a few thousand times.

[rocker59]

Ron tells me that the dealer where he works is now selling bikes at below retail . 

Just remember that Dealer margin and MoCo margin are two different things.

Harley builds the bike
Harley sells the bike to the dealer at a profit
Dealer sells the bike to the customer, usually at a profit.

The MoCo makes money on every one of the several hundred thousand motorcycles it sells to dealers each year.

[Lannis]

Like many other things, an irresponsible minority of fools create problems for everyone else.

That's certainly the way it is here.   I try to keep in touch with my V-twin cruiser-riding acquaintances, but what they are doing related to their motorcycles is not what I am doing.    I like to ride - they never do anything except ride 25 miles or less, making noise, looking bad, and talking about all the performance mods they've made to their bikes.   It's a sport and hobby, I suppose, but has little relation to what I do.

The best of those guys, I've known since we were kids.   EVERY SINGLE BIKE he's ever bought since 1973, he has the dealer add a "Jet Kit" and a "Slip On" or other exhaust mod; today in the ECU era, every bike has a "Chip" and a "Free Flow Exhaust" added to it.

Does it do anything for performance?   Why even ask such a question? because that's not the point.   He's never going to use the "performance" anyhow, but he WILL let you know that his bike has these mods and is therefore a terror on the streets worthy of respect.    I don't think he's ever put 4000 miles in one year on a bike, so longevity isn't an issue.

It's like playing fantasy football.   You don't have to get dirty, even ....

Lannis

[jas67]

Thankfully, map modification by individual owners would not be affected since the sharing of things like software and data is largely protected speech - and each owner would need to be individually investigated and prosecuted. It's the sellers of commercial products that have thunderclouds gathering overhead...

Sharing data is protected like free speech, but, the factory map is copy writable, and protectable by DRM (Digital Rights Management), basically a form of encryption to protect that data from being read.   This same technology can be used to prevent WRITING the map by unauthorized parties.

The EPA very well could REQUIRE manufactures to utilize such technology to prevent end users, or any other unauthorized persons from modifying the map.

[leafman60]

Sharing data is protected like free speech, but, the factory map is copy writable, and protectable by DRM (Digital Rights Management), basically a form of encryption to protect that data from being read.   This same technology can be used to prevent WRITING the map by unauthorized parties.

The EPA very well could REQUIRE manufactures to utilize such technology to prevent end users, or any other unauthorized persons from modifying the map.

Yes, that's what I am fearing!

Same for the Guzzi and other bikes. Tamper-Proof ECU.

[Kev m]

I too have heard this speculation on revenue and profits many times over the years, but the numbers in the annual reports never seem to back it up.

Here's a 2015 chart from the 10-k filing (P 4):

http://investor.harley-davidson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=87981&p=irol-reportsannual

The following table includes the percent of total revenue by product line for the Motorcycles and Related Products
segment:

2015 2014 2013

Motorcycles 77.8% 78.8% 77.4%
Parts & Accessories 16.2% 15.7% 16.6%
General Merchandise 5.5% 5.1% 5.6%
Other 0.5% 0.4% 0.4%
100.0% 100.0% 100.0%

So no way that 16.2% revenue from Parts & Accessories, which is a LOT more than just the Screaming Eagle parts is the lion's share.



And another table from the same report (P 29):

Segment Results
The following table includes the condensed statement of operations for the Motorcycles segment (in thousands):
2015    2014
Revenue:

Motorcycles $ 4,127,739 $ 4,385,863

Parts & Accessories 862,645 875,019

General Merchandise 292,310 284,826

Other 26,050 21,973 4,077 18.6

Total revenue 5,308,744 5,567,681

[jas67]

Yes, that's what I am fearing!

Same for the Guzzi and other bikes. Tamper-Proof ECU.

IIRC, many, if not all, currently shipping cars have "Tamper Proof" ECU's.

[Cool Runnings]

  Yes....

 I recently bought a 03 Silverado , 4.8 V-8 5 speed manual ...The previous owner installed a loud Cat Back twice pipe system...Some say nice sound...I dragged my butt under the truck and torched off the duals and put on a new single exhaust...I don't have to look over my shoulder for the cops when running it through the gears....And the duals don't make it run any better...

Should have installed a Corsa, music to the ears. 

[Cool Runnings]

The amusing thing here is the fact that most HD riders never use the "improved" performance offered by these devices . Seriously , at least around here it is unusual to encounter a Milwaukee Twin actually running at or even near the speed limit . Not knocking that , it just seems silly to spend money for a couple of extra Shetlands that will never leave the barn . There was a guy here that spent $10K installing a 120 CI aftermarket motor in his Alphabet Glide (TM) . The couple of times I rode with him and his buddies they were rocketing along at 55 MPH . I asked him if he ever really used the performance , he said "No , just nice to know it's there"  Meanwhile , I am
"using" every one of the 39 Shetlands corralled in the beater /5 and wondering why these new bikes can't or won't go more than 55 ???

 Dusty

Two up Harley's with trailers were running 80 mph + coming back from Sturgis on Highway 212. 

[ITSec]

IIRC, many, if not all, currently shipping cars have "Tamper Proof" ECU's.

Thankfully, tamper-proof deserves the quotation marks. My many years in information security tell me that any form of encryption or protection is rather like a deadbolt - it might make a casual attempt difficult, but it can only delay things given a determined and professional attack. In addition, the only threat of penalty is for those who try to make a business of thwarting the lock-down; individual owners still have the right to modify or replace the code in the ECU's firmware. They would, of course, have to accept the risk of consequences for operating such a vehicle if their modifications increased emissions, such as the cost of returning the vehicle to stock, etc.

If someone were to distribute the original code, they would certainly be in violation of copyright - but it would be hard to enforce copyright against any modified map.

[Cool Runnings]

After market exhaust systems, big business.

[charlie b]

Thankfully, tamper-proof deserves the quotation marks. My many years in information security tell me that any form of encryption or protection is rather like a deadbolt - it might make a casual attempt difficult, but it can only delay things given a determined and professional attack. In addition, the only threat of penalty is for those who try to make a business of thwarting the lock-down; individual owners still have the right to modify or replace the code in the ECU's firmware. They would, of course, have to accept the risk of consequences for operating such a vehicle if their modifications increased emissions, such as the cost of returning the vehicle to stock, etc.

If someone were to distribute the original code, they would certainly be in violation of copyright - but it would be hard to enforce copyright against any modified map.

It would be simple for the mfg to make a black box ecu with a read only code.  Solder in the chip and pot the whole thing.  Seal the box by weld and/or folded edges.

Of course, if someone wanted to make a complete ecu to replace that box, then nothing to prevent that except laws.  That is what many tuners do these days anyways.  You buy a new ecu with a programmable code in it.  The code can be changed/shared as you see fit.  Of course their code/maps only work with their ecu.

[LowRyter]

What are you trying to say, here?

Would you rather have 20% of $15,000 a few hundred thousand times.  Or, 50% of $200 a few thousand times.

I'd call it icing on the cake. 

.....or maybe since Harleys sell below retail now (according to Dusty), peanut butter on the cracker.

[oldbike54]

I'd call it icing on the cake. 

.....or maybe since Harleys sell below retail now (according to Dusty), peanut butter on the cracker.

 Just going by what Ron is saying . Ft Thunder started the price war , Harley World simply responded.

 Dusty

[oldbike54]

I'd call it icing on the cake. 

.....or maybe since Harleys sell below retail now (according to Dusty), peanut butter on the cracker.

 Just going by what Ron is saying . Ft Thunder started the price war , Harley World simply responded.

 Dusty

[Kev m]

I'd call it icing on the cake. 

.....or maybe since Harleys sell below retail now (according to Dusty), peanut butter on the cracker.

Well again 16%ish isn't the peanut butter or the cracker. 

[ITSec]

Seems to me the EPA has begun to see how much power they can wield after their recent wins.

I would bet that they start hitting more and more mfgs of this kind of stuff as time goes on.  Soon I suspect it will be to "close the loophole" on the off road only type accessories.

Don't Europe and Britain have strict rules on this kind of stuff?  What are their penalties like?

The EU countries are hitting VW every bit as hard as the US EPA has - even Germany is levying some substantial penalties. There are some variances since the rules differ, as do the degree by which VW therefore broke them, but the overall effect is like the classic 'running the gauntlet'.

[LaMojo]

Its all about government agencies funding their departments and lawyers.

[ITSec]

Its all about government agencies funding their departments and lawyers.

The laws aren't passed by the agencies, departments, or the lawyers who work there; these people are doing their jobs. The laws come from Congress, the policy from the administration - and HD (and other manufacturers) have known for years if not decades that they were skating along on an 'interpretation' that favored their approach but had never been tested in court or arbitration.

[Kev m]

The laws aren't passed by the agencies, departments, or the lawyers who work there; these people are doing their jobs. The laws come from Congress, the policy from the administration - and HD (and other manufacturers) have known for years if not decades that they were skating along on an 'interpretation' that favored their approach but had never been tested in court or arbitration.

Is that actually true? I was under the perhaps mistaken impression some government agencies, like the EPA are handed the responsibility of creating the standards they are enforcing, so they're a step removed from Congress.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a bit of hippie/greenie from a "let's all do our part standpoint" but I think in same breath that the EPA regularly oversteps their bounds with no checks or balance.

[LaMojo]

WE all know that laws are passed by Congress but, as an example:  The famous BP  Gulf oil spill of a few years ago.  It's amazing to see hundreds of agencies from local Louisiana parishes to the State and Federal Government along with lawyers possibly numbering in the hundreds filing anything from personal to class action lawsuits.   Many were thrown out of court simply because they didn't have any merit.   And, of course, a lot of people have and are being arrested for fraudulent claims of being harmed in some way because of the spill.

Many new expensive motor homes were bought to use as "command centers" along with fleets of new 4 four wheelers, boats. etc.  In short, the BP tragedy became the biggest economic boom in recent years for southern La, MS and SE Texas, especially for government agencies.