The why thread , wherein we answer all of the important questions of the day ,

[yackee]

I've been fantasizing about updating from my '76 T3 (though honestly I love the bike and it runs great most of the time). I'd like more power, but still staying with something like a naked standard-type. So I've been casually exploring the usual options, BMW r nine t, Griso, V7II, Roamer, Harley roadster, used harley xr1200, Ducati Monster...nothing really seems to have what I'm looking for. If the Roamer or XR1200 had a bigger tank, maybe...

Anyway, I have no intention of asking for anyone to compare the options my long-list. But in thinking about the Harleys (and after sitting on more than a few), I can't help but wondering, why in the hell are they so heavy? Even the ones that aren't coated in layers of chrome and bedazzled with loads of accessories feel massive to me. And they typically seem come with tiny gas tanks. So it can't be the gas tank that causes the weight gain. Is it the engine and the complicated transmission/drive? Is the frame over-built? If you were going to design a Sportster-type bike, what would you need to do to get down to say below 500 pounds dry weight (still more than a Griso incidentally)?

[oldbike54]

 Thick paint ?

 Dusty

[oldbike54]

 Sorry 

 Seriously , twin cylinder bikes tend to be a bit heavier than four cylinder bikes . Heavy crankshafts , flywheels , rods , etc . Harley Davidsons are also built with heavy steel frames , fenders , headlights, even their foot pegs and associated hardware are heavy . That said , many large displacement Japanese cruiser bikes are as heavy , or heavier , than HD's . Weight isn't really a concern for most buyers of cruiser or touring bikes , road hugging weight and all .

 Dusty

[fotoguzzi]

What you need is a Buell XB9S.. 386# dry..



my XB12XT was 465#

[elvisboy77]

Their design has not basically changed over many years, V twin etc which is by nature top heavy or high center of gravity, that is likely what you feel

[Guzzistajohn]

What you need is a Buell XB9S.. 386# dry..



my XB12XT was 465#



^^^^pretty bad ass!

[pressureangle]

Well, back when I was racing 883's, race weight was about 375lbs if I remember correctly.

Just the crank and rods was 26lbs. Everything is over-sturdy to survive the vibration and shaking.

I worked for H-D for years, and when I bought my Guzzi I realized it had everything the Harley had that I wanted, none of the things I hated, and a lot that I wanted that the Harley did not have.

[Tom]

Yackee, I see that some of the motivation to look at other bikes is "power".  I'll ask anyway,  what rpm's are you shifting at? and what rpm's are you cruising at?  Shift between 4K & 5K preferably 5K.  Cruise at 4K or above.  If you're already doing this then maybe another ride would be fun.

[JeffOlson]

For relaxed cruising down the road or highway, weight is your friend. The more weight (all else being equal, etc.), the less you are blown about on the road, the smoother the ride, etc. (Personally, I like carrying around a few extra pounds when the wind blows--there's less chance of being knocked over!)

Seriously, I just traded in a sporty, fun, quick little car for a huge autobahn cruiser. The sporty, fun, quick little car was fun only in the twisties and only for short distances. For long-distance blasting down the highway at high speed, in supreme comfort and quiet, the autobahn cruiser cannot be beat. Relatively the same thing with my little Ducati that I traded in on a "sturdy" Norge. I imagine a heavier Harley Davidson would be even more stable on the highway.

Also, in America, we often have to ride or drive long distances on straight stretches of highway if we want to get anywhere. Not all of us can ride or drive only in the twisties.

[Kev m]

To add to what has been said there are some additional factors:

1. Rubbermounts. Isolating the engine in rubbermounts requires a heavier/sturdier frame. For instance when the Sportster went to rubbermounts in 04 it gained 50# (the solidmounts were 500# but used the motor as a stressed member of the frame).

2. Litigation. Their popularity in the US made them a target over the years for ridiculous things. Like a lawsuit where a 300# guy stood on the brake pedal to reach something on a shelf in his garage and it broke. They have a very high standard for parts strength and many components seriously overbuilt. Their wheels are ridiculous. I recently weighed the rear wheel with tire, rotor, and sprocket from my Sporty, it was just shy of 50#.

3. Feel. Yeah that weight does lend to a feeling that the customers generally like. Call it stability on the open road (there really do get blown around less in high cross-winds). But it's more, like a freight train. They feel substantial, well built, like they will last, and they will. Just see my bud whose 06 Sporty recently passed 200k miles without any sort of rebuild and pretty free repairs (mostly just the usual maintenance).

[johnr]

A bit like asking why a transverse V twin should be so wide as to be short of cornering clearance really.

[webmost]

my XB12XT was 465#

Just curious: In that XB12XT, what does the second X stand for?

[sithot]

A Gold Wing is heavy. 900-930#

A similar Harley is around 844.  Still no lightweight.
The Honda "feels" more manageable because of the flat horizontally opposed engine.

A friend is looking into a Harley trike as a "cager" induced leg injury from years back is going to sideline him from riding at some point.

[Rough Edge racing]

 Griso's are listed as 550 pounds with fuel... I believe all Guzzi big blocks are at least 500 pounds?  Some large displacement Ducatis are less than 450 pounds...

[Kev m]

READERS DIGEST VERSION The new Harley CX Roadster is only 19# heavier than a Griso 1200.

I've been fantasizing about updating from my '76 T3 (though honestly I love the bike and it runs great most of the time). I'd like more power, but still staying with something like a naked standard-type. So I've been casually exploring the usual options, BMW r nine t, Griso, V7II, Roamer, Harley roadster, used harley xr1200, Ducati Monster...nothing really seems to have what I'm looking for. If the Roamer or XR1200 had a bigger tank, maybe...

<snip>

 Is it the engine and the complicated transmission/drive? Is the frame over-built? If you were going to design a Sportster-type bike, what would you need to do to get down to say below 500 pounds dry weight (still more than a Griso incidentally)?

I just noticed the Griso comment, remember that DRY WEIGHT = LIE WEIGHT.

Here are some WET WEIGHTS to compare:

Griso 1200 548#
Griso 1100 543#
Breva 1100 562#
Breva 1200S 555#
Norge 1200 617#
Stelvio NTX 666#

Jackal 1100 572#
Black Eagle 589#
Cal-Vintage 616#

96 Sportster 1200S 520#
99 Sportster 1200S 526#
07 Sportster 1200N 564#
09 Sportster XR1200 580#
16 Sportster 1200CX 567#

Buell ST2 517#
Buell S3   496#
Buell XB9R 450#
Buell XB12S 462#
Buell XB12Ss 471#
05 Buell XR12X 506#
08 Buell XR12X 517#

BMW R9T 486#
07 BMW R1200R 511#

Ducati M696 408#
Ducati Scrambler 412#
10 Ducati M796 446#
14 Ducati M796 420#
14 Ducati M1200S 470#

Guzzi Smallblocks

B7   448#
V7C 444#
V7R 443#
V7II Stone 454#
V9 Bobber 473#

So yeah, Harleys are heavy. But Harleys aren't trying to be Buells, Ducatis, or even Guzzi Smallblocks.

And even some of the Buells, Ducatis, and Smallblocks aren't as light as some might think.

When you compare Sportsters to Tonti Calis you see Sportys are no heavier, and sometimes lighter.

When you compare Sportster to CARCs you see they're not far apart, and again sometimes the sportys are lighter.

The current Cali series weighs in at around 700-750# - which is actually as heavy or heavier than the original Road Kings, but the current RKs have gained weight and come in around 800#.

I think it comes down to 2 more factors I didn't mention earlier

1. Materials - My Breva 1100 Marchesini wheels were maybe HALF or less the weight of a Harley wheel, same with the Stone wheels, or the Brembo wheels on my Duc. That all costs money. I dented a wheel on the Duc and found out just how much - $1200 PER WHEEL... for ONE FREAKING WHEEL??? Holy crap, on a $9k bike... ouch. That Harley wheel may be heavy but I can get one tomorrow brand new for $400. That's 1/3 the price and let me tell you something, in hundreds of thousands of miles I never dented a wheel on a Harley.

Also the heavy Harley wheels have a lot of rotating mass and slows acceleration, but keeps that feeling of momentum/mass. So it also comes down to a preference thing.

Similarly you find a lot more aluminum all over bikes like the Breva or Griso.


2. Size - Jenn's monster is an impressive 408# but it's a tiny bike. You want more wheelbase and room for a passenger, then it's going to be a lot harder to approach numbers like that. Even the 796 which is only a hair bigger is heavier, and the newer water-cooled Monsters at 470# are approaching the weight of some old solidmount Sportys.

So yeah there's a difference, but sometimes I think people over-estimate it.


Also - about the "complicated drive" - I don't think there's anything complicated about a primary chain connecting the motor to the transmission. Seems pretty straight forward.

[lrutt]

Actually, take a look at weights on all bikes in that class. Harleys are not necessarily the heaviest anymore. Are they heavy, yes sort of but relative to others not so.

[sithot]

OT:

How do you get e-mail notifications from this site?  I'm happy to donate (I have) but something isn't working so if I post and get no response I forget about it.  "Out of sight, out of mind"...   

[Red Dog]

Don't know about HD weight but if you are looking for something different go test ride a Victory steel frame bike.
IE: Gunner, Vegas etc.
Loads of power, surprising handling & feels like a 480lb bike. 106 cube (1750cc) close to 100 HP.

Or the Victory Octane water cooled 1200 if you want some thing a bit quicker.
It feels like a 450 Honda weight wise & hits the ton very quickly.

[fotoguzzi]

Just curious: In that XB12XT, what does the second X stand for?

XB12 indicates the motor, next X denotes Ulysses (or cross purpose) the T for touring.

to confuse even more  "The Lightning CityX XB9SX is an urban brawler, designed to rule the city streets with muscle and attitude. Armed with handlebar deflectors and a headlight grille, ..."

[JJ]

My 1998 Centauro GT is about 525 pounds.  My 2014 Victory Vision is 871 pounds. 

Different bikes - - different applications. :1:






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[oldbike54]

 Don't remember where this article was (probably Cycle World) , but years ago , 1982 maybe, there was a story similar to this topic . Except ... the question was , "why are Japanese motorcycles so large and heavy?"  The proffered answers ran from , "They must think all Americans are giants "  , to "It is hard to place large 4 cylinder engines in a small light package" . Of course they were discussing bikes that would be considered fairly svelte and small by modern non-sportbike standards .

 Dusty

[Kev m]

Don't know about HD weight but if you are looking for something different go test ride a Victory steel frame bike.
IE: Gunner, Vegas etc.
Loads of power, surprising handling & feels like a 480lb bike. 106 cube (1750cc) close to 100 HP.

Or the Victory Octane water cooled 1200 if you want some thing a bit quicker.
It feels like a 450 Honda weight wise & hits the ton very quickly.

From his list I suspect the OP isn't looking for a forward controls bike which pretty much eliminates everything from Victory unless the dresser controls are acceptable, or maybe the Octane as they may be forwards but they're not as bad as some of the genre.

That said I think your point on weight FEEL is valid, if a bit exaggerated.

I've often said my 700# RK felt lighter than my maybe 540# R1100RS because of height.

Similarly my 572# Jackal felt lighter than my 562# Breva, but my 585#+ Sporty felt lighter than both...because of height.

That said the Gunner is basically a Judge, and the last time I saw an ACTUAL wet weight on that it was 691# wet so by far the porkiest of this conversation and way above even the Sporty variants he's mentioned. But no way it felt anything like a 480# bike I've ridden.

The Octane is kinda neat, and if it feels like its Scout cousin then it does very much hide the ~563# of wet weight. Again I think you're pushing it on the feel comparison, but hey it's subjective.

[LowRyter]

Q.  why are Harleys so heavy?

A.  just look at them.

[Red Dog]

From his list I suspect the OP isn't looking for a forward controls bike which pretty much eliminates everything from Victory unless the dresser controls are acceptable, or maybe the Octane as they may be forwards but they're not as bad as some of the genre.

That said I think your point on weight FEEL is valid, if a bit exaggerated.

I've often said my 700# RK felt lighter than my maybe 540# R1100RS because of height.

Similarly my 572# Jackal felt lighter than my 562# Breva, but my 585#+ Sporty felt lighter than both...because of height.

That said the Gunner is basically a Judge, and the last time I saw an ACTUAL wet weight on that it was 691# wet so by far the porkiest of this conversation and way above even the Sporty variants he's mentioned. But no way it felt anything like a 480# bike I've ridden.

The Octane is kinda neat, and if it feels like its Scout cousin then it does very much hide the ~563# of wet weight. Again I think you're pushing it on the feel comparison, but hey it's subjective.

Correct about everything is subjective.
I sat on a hard tail slim & getting that off the side stand took some grunt.
Sat on the Gunner & almost threw the thing thru the window when I stood it up.
Don't care what the specs are it's all about how it feels to the individual.

Same as a 1200 Octane compared to the 1200 Sporty.
Octane feels a whole lot lighter in every way.
Off the side stand, slow ride in parking lot, fast thru curves all feel like a lot less weight.

[Kev m]

Correct about everything is subjective.
I sat on a hard tail slim & getting that off the side stand took some grunt.
Sat on the Gunner & almost threw the thing thru the window when I stood it up.
Don't care what the specs are it's all about how it feels to the individual.

Same as a 1200 Octane compared to the 1200 Sporty.
Octane feels a whole lot lighter in every way.
Off the side stand, slow ride in parking lot, fast thru curves all feel like a lot less weight.

Well yeah it's how it feels but there are limits.

But I think people make too many assumptions based on limited comparisons.

I have no idea what a "Hard Tail Slim" is but the Harley Softail Slim didn't take much to get off the stand. I certainly don't remember the Judge feeling lighter, but maybe there's a difference with the Gunner.

But I'll definitely disagree with the Octane/Sporty generalization.

Since 2004 alone there have been something like 15 or so variants in the XL Sportster line that vary sight height by inches. A 1200R or 1200C are gonna feel different coming off the stand than a Low or SuperLow.

Now once off the stands those seat heights don't mean much to how light they feel at parking lot speeds or initiating a curve at speed. That's mostly steering head geometry with some effects from things like differences in tires (sizes and profiles), the bars and in rider build (as the relationship to the bars will change leverage).

Which reminds me that there are probably a half dozen variants in Sportster bars as well.

Anyway I've ridden probably more like a dozen variants/configurations of the rubbermount Sportys and a Scout, and i think your impressions are once again overstated in some cases and off base in others.

You'd be shocked how small/light a SuperLow feels.

[jlburgess]

Because they're made of pig iron! 

[Kiwi Dave]

I recently weighed the rear wheel with tire, rotor, and sprocket from my Sporty, it was just shy of 50#.

I weighed the rear wheel of my California 1400 Custom; 18kg + 8 kg for the tyre = 26kg i.e. heavier than the Sportster.  I was surprised it was so heavy.  So much for unsprung weight.

[Kev m]

I weighed the rear wheel of my California 1400 Custom; 18kg + 8 kg for the tyre = 26kg i.e. heavier than the Sportster.  I was surprised it was so heavy.  So much for unsprung weight.

Well, in the California's defense it IS 700+# bike with a 200/60-16 rear wheel vs. my Sporty which I think was rated at about 585# wet and that weight was with a 140/90-16.

So the Cali is bigger overall and carrying more weight, and that 57# is a slightly smaller percentage of the total weight (8.1% vs 8.5%).

But yeah, that's big too.

[OlDogface]

My grandfather, father, uncles, and one aunt all own/owned HD's of various vintages, choppers, dressers, chromed, blacked, even a couple that look more like a bicycle than a motorcycle. Family is pretty much exclusively HD's (except for the dirt bikes). I've been riding off an on for about 20 years now and still haven't found a HD that had a weight/balance I liked well enough to buy it. I'm thankful we live in today's world and have such a wide range of choice.

[johnr]

OT:

How do you get e-mail notifications from this site?  I'm happy to donate (I have) but something isn't working so if I post and get no response I forget about it.  "Out of sight, out of mind"...

If you contribute to a thread it will then notify you. If you do not there is a "notify" button you can use which will email you about contributions to that thread.