V85 Street Bike ?

[rdbandkab]

[JohninVT]

It looks nice but I still don’t believe it’ll have 80hp.  I think it will be about 65hp at the wheel, at most.  Like I said in the TT thread, I can’t think of one air-cooled, screw and lock nut bike that has ever made 100hp per liter.  It will end up with 5-8hp less than a SV650 and weigh30-40lbs more.  That seems like a recipe for a fun bike but I’m with Roper in the power claim.

[rdbandkab]

If it can carry two adults and some bags without balking, the numbers won't matter to me.   If we test ride it and it can't get out of its own way,  then we have an issue.

[JeffOlson]

I am sure I would like it (a street-bike version), but I might want more power. The 1200 was a great motor, and I am sure I would like the 1400 as well, but 850cc seems a bit small to me.

Still, my Ducati ST2 had only a 944cc motor with about 83 hp, and it had plenty of power, even for two-up...

[Diploman]

The new KTM 790Duke (799cc water-cooled parallel twin) is listed at 105 hp and 65 ft-lbs torque.  The air-cooled V85 motor will not match those power figures, but Guzzi's claim of 80hp does not seem unreasonable using new technology, such as titanium intake valves.  Ducati has produced 80+ hp in the past from air-cooled engines of similar displacement.  Let's wait and see what the actual real-world test data say before dismissing Guzzi's claims.

[Tusayan]

I am sure I would like it (a street-bike version), but I might want more power. The 1200 was a great motor, and I am sure I would like the 1400 as well, but 850cc seems a bit small to me.

Still, my Ducati ST2 had only a 944cc motor with about 83 hp, and it had plenty of power, even for two-up...

An ST-2 makes about 83 HP at the rear wheel, and is no feather weight.  I agree that's fine for two up.  65 RWHP seems more achievable for the Guzzi and I'd guess with some certainty that the 80HP claim is at the crankshaft, but time will tell.  The Ducati engine is a 944 cc overhead cam desmo with water cooled heads.

My SV650 (DOHC 4V per cylinder) makes 68 RWHP and will haul 275 lbs of people without trouble - but is not ideally suited to it, feeling a bit tightly wound at 75 mph two up.  It's a roughly 130 mph motorcycle.  My R100GS makes far less power (40s at the rear wheel) and can't go nearly that fast but is better doing the same two-up job...  larger displacement and lower RPM play a role, not just power.  It's just my POV but I think if Piaggio has actually done the best job that's possible to develop the 850 cc small block it'll do the two up touring job comfortably... but it'll need to be a really good detail reengineering job relative to the engine they've been selling.

[jpv7]

An ST-2 makes about 83 HP at the rear wheel, and is no feather weight.  I agree that's fine for two up.  65 RWHP seems more achievable for the Guzzi and I'd guess with some certainty that the 80HP claim is at the crankshaft, but time will tell.  The Ducati engine is a 944 cc overhead cam desmo with water cooled heads.

My SV650 (DOHC 4V per cylinder) makes 68 RWHP and will haul 275 lbs of people without trouble - but is not ideally suited to it, feeling a bit tightly wound at 75 mph two up.  It's a roughly 130 mph motorcycle.  My R100GS makes far less power (40s at the rear wheel) and can't go nearly that fast but is better doing the same two-up job...  larger displacement and lower RPM play a role, not just power.  It's just my POV but I think if Piaggio has actually done the best job that's possible to develop the 850 cc small block it'll do the two up touring job comfortably... but it'll need to be a really good detail reengineering job relative to the engine they've been selling.

Agreed and good points.  For me, as a smaller, short-arse (i think it was Huzo?) rider it's the weight of the machine that will have me sold on it.  It's not that I can't handle the bigger bikes - it's just that the weight has so much of an effect on how it handles and stops.  Thus the fun factor goes down for me.  450ish is my limit...

[rocker59]

It looks nice but I still don’t believe it’ll have 80hp.  I think it will be about 65hp at the wheel, at most.   

You are correct, it will not have 80hp "at the wheel".  They're advertising that "at the crank".

80bhp at the crank, should be about 68-70 rwhp on a shaft-drive Guzzi.

[JohninVT]

The new KTM 790Duke (799cc water-cooled parallel twin) is listed at 105 hp and 65 ft-lbs torque.  The air-cooled V85 motor will not match those power figures, but Guzzi's claim of 80hp does not seem unreasonable using new technology, such as titanium intake valves.  Ducati has produced 80+ hp in the past from air-cooled engines of similar displacement.  Let's wait and see what the actual real-world test data say before dismissing Guzzi's claims.

The Duke is shim under bucket and liquid cooled.  Ducati never made an air-cooled bike that put out 100 hp per liter and they have desmodromic valves.  Ducati claimed the 4 valve 1100 EVO put out 95hp but it only made 80-ish hp at the rear wheel.  1100/95hp(claimed)= is 1hp per 13.75cc's.  Guzzi is claiming 80hp from 850.  That's 850/80=1hp per 10.625cc's.  That's sheer fantasy based on the respective engine architecture and you know....physics.  There is no new "technology" listed in the spec sheet that will bend the law of physics or mathematics.   

If you assume Guzzi can get the exact same specific power per displacement as the Ducati at the rear wheel(which they can't), the V85 would make 62hp at the wheel.  I think the bike will dyno closer to 55hp than 65hp.  That's plenty for a fun runabout but anyone who thinks the bike is going to be "fast" is delusional.  Cue everyone saying, "ride a slow bike fast...blah, blah, blah."

None of this will really matter to most of us if the bike is reliable and handles well but the hp claim annoys me.  It would please me to no end if I was wrong and the V85 makes 70hp at the wheel.  A naked V85 with cast wheels should weigh 20-25lbs less than the TT and if it DOES lay down 70hp at the wheel it'll be in the same ballpark weight and power wise as a SV650...which is one of the most fun middleweight twins ever made.                   

[Huzo]

Poilshed wheels, silver forks and some subtle green and white accents please ...

[kingoffleece]

Good post, John.  I hear ya.
But it won't matter to me, at least.  55, 60, 62hp, whatever.  It'll be quick enough to have fun.
I've really come to like the ease of maintenance of the Guzzi product.  It's a huge factor for me.

Time will tell.

[pete roper]

Still looks like a volcanic eruption of boiling arse!

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Still looks like a volcanic eruption of boiling arse!

Cheese and crackers!  What the heck should it look like then? That isn't the "retro" look you despise so much. Is it supposed to have "Bill the Cat" headlights like a BMW, or like any one of the Japanese bikes with it's pointy bug-torso arse sticking up toward the sky? Look like a Triumph or KTM? Maybe an Aprilia? 

One thing is for sure - I definitely would not ever want to be in the design dept. of any motorcycle company, because no matter what your design looks like, there's always going to be someone who thinks it looks like a "volcanic eruption of boiling arse". 

[blu guzz]

thanks for putting that out there.  I like the first 80% of that design but would like the last 20% to have a flatter, more comfortable looking seat.  I can't think of a woman that would want to ride on the back of that design for more than a few minutes. Just my opinion, thanks for letting me express it.

[rdbandkab]

That's mockup is actually some designer's recent take on what it "could" look like with the rear seat and subframe area from the V85 TT with a mini fairing from a Breva 1200 Sport.
Sometimes the seats are more form over function it seems.  The aftermarket seat customizers will be around for a long time!!!

[bad Chad]

I'm agreeing with Charlie on this.  What should it look like?  What should it be?

[pete roper]

Cheese and crackers!  What the heck should it look like then? That isn't the "retro" look you despise so much. Is it supposed to have "Bill the Cat" headlights like a BMW, or like any one of the Japanese bikes with it's pointy bug-torso arse sticking up toward the sky? Look like a Triumph or KTM? Maybe an Aprilia? 

One thing is for sure - I definitely would not ever want to be in the design dept. of any motorcycle company, because no matter what your design looks like, there's always going to be someone who thinks it looks like a "volcanic eruption of boiling arse". 

I'd just want it to look as if it had a modicum of thought put into it! You say it doesn't have the 'Retro' look I despise? I disagree, it doesn't seem to ape anything classy though. If you want to know what it reminds me of most it's a mid eighties commuter middleweight! Something like a GS 400 Suzuki. Now they were a sound, if unexciting, motorbike but charismatic they definitely weren't!

Sorry, but I really think that Piaggio have completely missed what GUZZI was about and that is obvious in what they are pinning their hopes on and the suggestions of others for what they should build. They spend a lot of time banging on in their press releases about 'Heritage' and past glories and then build machines that are, quite frankly, an embarrassment. I can think of no other manufacturer of anything more than truly pedestrian 'Poverty Pack' commuters who would even think of producing a 2VPC OHV engine for their flagship model in 2019! It's not just pathetic, it's insane!

Pete

PS. I do wholeheartedly agree. I wouldn't want to be the 'Stylist' for anything. Taste is far too subjective!

[acguzzi]

My 79 lemans makes 63 rwhp with a b10 cam and 40mm carbs, I would think that 40 years later I could expect at least 70 at the wheel

[pete roper]

Why? The laws of physics haven't changed?

[Joliet Jim]

I'm confused, my 20 year old air cooled Centauro dynoed 92 at the rear wheel with it's 1000cc. I'd like to think in 20 years of continuing refinement a 2 valve could produce decent numbers.

[JohninVT]

My 79 lemans makes 63 rwhp with a b10 cam and 40mm carbs, I would think that 40 years later I could expect at least 70 at the wheel

Why would you?  The V85 lump is 10% smaller than a CX100 but fundamentally the same engine.  It also meets modern emissions.  I wouldn't be surprised if modern oil doesn't contribute to higher specific output than the titanium valves.  10/60 4T probably nets a couple HP improvement in either engine. 

         

[JohninVT]

I'm confused, my 20 year old air cooled Centauro dynoed 92 at the rear wheel with it's 1000cc. I'd like to think in 20 years of continuing refinement a 2 valve could produce decent numbers.

All due respect...but the Centauro was rated 95 at the crank.  The 1200 Sport was also rated 95 at the crank and those typically showed low 80's on a dyno.  I don't know why a Centauro would only lose 3-4% from the crank to the wheel when 15% is what most Guzzi's have for drivetrain loss.   

[Joliet Jim]

All due respect...but the Centauro was rated 95 at the crank.  The 1200 Sport was also rated 95 at the crank and those typically showed low 80's on a dyno.  I don't know why a Centauro would only lose 3-4% from the crank to the wheel when 15% is what most Guzzi's have for drivetrain loss.   

Somewhere I've got the dyno runs from when they mapped the Centauro to the PC3 from Guzzi tech, but I've heard of others in the 95 range. Now they could have made it all up, but that wouldn't explain the others with similar or better numbers.

And to quote a post by Will Creedon
"Standard horsepower on a V10 Centauro is typically in the range of 83 to 88 at the rear wheel, give or take. The easiest way to increase that is by removing the airbox, the maps actually don't have much to do with it, other that supporting whatever mods have been done to the bike. A replacement exhaust crossover is the other thing people do, obviously, and this typically detracts slightly from peak power and helps in the midrange. The typical result is about 90-95 rear wheel horsepower, roughly 5-10 over stock.. Not much to do with the maps, however, regardless of source. "

[pete roper]

Had to dredge back a fair way in the memory but I found it!

Google up images on a Honda CB250 'Super Hawk' from 1981. It looks pretty much identical. They made a 400cc version too. It was an ugly, underperforming turd as well!

Pete

[pete roper]

Disagree. While the Stelviomay well of hatched in a nest at the top of the ugly tree and then been pushed out and hit every branch on the way down to ground level it is still, unmistakably, what it is.

The photoshop 'Street' 850 looks like anything and nothing at the same time! A veritable tsunami of arse!

Pete

[pete roper]

Peter? If you're going to make a statement at least have the courage to stand by it!

[Huzo]

Still looks like a volcanic eruption of boiling arse!

Nup..
Wrong this time.
Looks like a solid dependable jigger that'll help you keep your licence and you won't need to shit your pants each time you go to the letterbox !
If it feels as good as my Norge but with a bit less torque, I'd have one next to the new V 85 and dump my Mk 2 onto some misty eyed old fart that wants to hang onto something with artificially inflated value to fund the purchase.

[pete roper]

Now that sounds more sensible!

[Huzo]

Peter? If you're going to make a statement at least have the courage to stand by it!

Ok then Pete.
Upon second thoughts, I felt that I was being "trollish" by bagging a bike that a lot of riders genuinely like, so deleted the post.
I'm just wondering  as to why you'd launch a burst of manufactured vitriol upon something like the image, yet you fell somewhat in love with an overweight lard bucket of a thing like the Stelvio, and paid a few bob for that sidecar thing you grabbed.
Your description of the V 85 roadie, is amusing as always, but a self indulgent exercise in exaggeration.
Courageous enough..?

[twowheeladdict]

Why? The laws of physics haven't changed?

True, but the practical application of the laws of physics has gained much ground.