What are normal operating temps and pressures?

[rodekyll]

I have 1100cc Cali engines, one solid and one hydro.  In Sitka they barely broke 100ºf because the temps are so cold, it's so rainy, and there's no road.  Now I'm riding in the great Outside, and of course temps are up and idle pressure is down.  I'm so used to the Alaska climate that I don't know what's 'normal' anymore. 

So . . . in the John Day Rally weather (90s and low humidity), pushing it hard, what would you expect engine temps to be?  At that first stop after the spirited mountain pass run, what would you expect oil pressure to be?  Stop-and-go in downtown Ogden (100f and 80% humidity).  . . ?

Ditto other weather scenarios . .  . 220f?  250?  280?.  . . .?  10#?  2#?  . . . .?

[Wayne Orwig]

Since there is no temperature control device, won't the air temp different translate to the same difference in engine temp?
As in, the air is 40F hotter, so the motor is 40F hotter?

That is about what I always see winter to summer, using an oil temp dipstick.

[Tom H]

'04 hydro in the Long Beach Ca. area with normal temps 65-85 deg.. Oil pressure (with a cheap electrical gauge) cold idle is about 60, 3500rpm about 55-60, hot idle varies on how much city vs. freeway but is between 5-15.

No temp gauge, sorry.

Tom

[rodekyll]

Since there is no temperature control device, won't the air temp different translate to the same difference in engine temp?
As in, the air is 40F hotter, so the motor is 40F hotter?

That is about what I always see winter to summer, using an oil temp dipstick.

All else being equal, yes.  But (for examples) the engine is working harder and going slower in mountain passes, so there's less airflow for cooling there than on the slab, and it's got no airflow at a stop light or in stop and go traffic.  So I'd expect those situations to have different effects on temperature. 

Hot oil and urban stop-and-go is a miserable thing to put the oil pressure through, too.  Mine runs in the mid 40's/50s at 65mph, but on a hot day coming straight out of 60mph to a stop, it drops below 5#.  This is a hydro engine that had a counterfeit/partial recall done and had a previous oil pump failure.  Crank was polished (MI) and new bearings installed throughout, but I've always been nervous about the crankpin runouts.  It's also doing the equivalent of tug duty without the benefit of shifting gears, so it may be working harder than a normal hydro.     Temp and pressure numbers would help me decide.  If I don't like the numbers I see here for 'normal' I might install a cooler.  It's easy enough, but if I'm within limits, why fix it?

[Muzz]

At least you should not be getting much in the way of mayonnaise buildup compared to riding in Alaska.

[canuck750]

I have a mechanical oil pressure gauge on my Eldorado, on the trip to John Day I held a pretty consistent 75 mph and the oil pressure gauge tends to stay at 65 psi at the speed and heat.

Can't help you with the engine temperature.

Cheers

Jim

[chuck peterson]

Ask that guy rodekyll...he'll know lots of that stuff

[normzone]

[counterfeit/partial recall] Jeez, I deal with counterfeit component fears in the day job every week, but it happens in the Guzzi world also? What is this third stone from the sun coming to ?

[Arizona Wayne]

I had 2 ATF coolers on my Convert. hack so I wouldn't blow an atf. seal.  I had a temp. gauge. in the ATF tank and knew what temp. the seals would blow at and when the ATF fluid got close I'D shut down for awhile to let the fluid cool down before proceeding.  That usually only happened in stop & go or slow uphill situations.  Never blew an atf seal that way.  That was pulling a fully loaded sidecar w/a `80 Convert.     With your setup I have no idea what it's like.

[rodekyll]

So far hydraulic drive temp is not an issue.  It runs a nominal 20º over air temp unless I'm stressing it.  Making the engine go fast while the wheels are going slow (like takeoff from a stop) is a major stress, and with little airflow, a stock Convert can heat up fast.  The highest the trike has gotten was in stop-and-go traffic on an uphill arterial in Minneapolis, mid 90s air temp.  The hydraulic temp was 160f.  I have a fan behind the radiator set for 180º.  So far it's only gone off when I've tested it.

I'm using a radiator as a combination tank and cooler.  It has about 16x the surface area of the convert cooler and I think the capacity is comparable.  It's buried back near the rear axle with a 'scoop' of sorts ramming air into it whenever the trike is rolling.  So scampering over a mountain pass in hot weather with a lot of sawing on the throttle it runs in the 130-142º range.  Often at night it's under 100.

On a sustained run the engine tends to run about 110 - 120º hotter than whatever the hydraulic fluid is. 

[Muzz]

If you were worried about the temp of the ATF when the trike is going slow and under load, could you put a radiator fan for a car in the scoop and have it set to turn on via a thermocouple?

[Chuck in Indiana]

it drops below 5#

I've never run a pressure gauge on a Guzzi, but that would concern me. Maybe it's normal, but I wouldn't think so.

[rodekyll]

If you were worried about the temp of the ATF when the trike is going slow and under load, could you put a radiator fan for a car in the scoop and have it set to turn on via a thermocouple?

There's a fan behind the radiator set to 180º.

[sign216]

To add another data point; I've got a cylinder head temp sensor on my V7.  I routinely get oper temps of 390 - 420 F.
Slightly higher if I'm running sustained 80+mph on the highway, on low side if I'm putting around backroads.

[rodekyll]

Just out of curiosity -- how do you have the head temp sensor installed?

[sign216]

Just out of curiosity -- how do you have the head temp sensor installed?

I have ring sensors on each spark plug, mounted between the plug and the head.  Their leads go to a dual gauge on my dash.

[http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/cr-002.php

[rodekyll]

I have a head temp gauge -- just don't know where I want the sender.  I think a spark plug ring came with the kit.  I'll try that first.

[sign216]

I have a head temp gauge -- just don't know where I want the sender.  I think a spark plug ring came with the kit.  I'll try that first.

Rodekyll,
In theory the spark plug sender system is great.  In practice it's hard to get it operating correctly. 

I think the problem is that the gauge is driven by the tiny current generatored by the sensor thermocouple.  The current is so small, it's easy for other issues to alter the reading.

Give it a shot and let me know.
Joe   

[rodekyll]

Rodekyll,
In theory the spark plug sender system is great.  In practice it's hard to get it operating correctly. 

I think the problem is that the gauge is driven by the tiny current generatored by the sensor thermocouple.  The current is so small, it's easy for other issues to alter the reading.

Give it a shot and let me know.
Joe

I think it also came with a ring for under a head stud/exh flange nut.  Would either be a better/less finicky location?

[sign216]

I think it also came with a ring for under a head stud/exh flange nut.  Would either be a better/less finicky location?

My guess is that under the plug is hottest and gives the best reading.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Rodekyll,
In theory the spark plug sender system is great.  In practice it's hard to get it operating correctly. 

I think the problem is that the gauge is driven by the tiny current generatored by the sensor thermocouple.  The current is so small, it's easy for other issues to alter the reading.

Give it a shot and let me know.
Joe

Thermocouples have a very low impedance, they can drive a lot of load besides which the gauge is probably a modern milliVolt meter, the thermocouple won't even know it's there.

The main thing is to use the correct thermocouple extension wire, if you use copper it will get errors due to difference in temperature at each end of the copper portion, even that shouldn't be significant.

[JayDee24ca]

I dunno what normal is, but I can tell you that two days ago I rode the Santa Rosa Trail here, on my Quota 1100E with 37000 km on it, in 85 to 90 degree ambient temps.
 So long as my rpm were up above 2500 the OP was upwards of 40psi (VDO guage).  But much of my running was crawling at lower rpm in first and second gear as the trail was pretty rough and boney, so the OP was down much of the time at 30psi.
At 1100rpm hot idle, it was as low as 7-10psi. The idiot light did not light up. As soon as i hit smoother parts of the trial, and I was able to maintain a steady speed in third, with rpm again up to 3000-4000, OP rose to a steady 50-55.Once I hit the highway again, OP went back up to 55-60. Also, cold idle is 60+psi.
I have a hunch that the pressure at lower speeds could not be sustained, as the rpm were up and down really rapidly as I doges water bars and rocks, but once I was able to maintain a smooth speed and rpm, it normalized. Just a theory.
My conclusion is that I wish I had not put the OP gauge in, as now I have something else to worry about. Did the same thing on a Volvo B230FT I modified. Worst thing I could have done, should have just trusted the engineers who put the idiot light in it. 
JD

[rodekyll]

hehe

I'm trusting the engineer that didn't.

[sign216]

Worst thing I could have done, should have just trusted the engineers who put the idiot light in it. 
JD

As for temperature on a V7, I'm just an idiot with no light.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Rodekyll,
In theory the spark plug sender system is great.  In practice it's hard to get it operating correctly. 

I think the problem is that the gauge is driven by the tiny current generatored by the sensor thermocouple.  The current is so small, it's easy for other issues to alter the reading.

Give it a shot and let me know.
Joe

I had "issues" with the CHT on Mouser until I used Wayne's magic elixer DeOxit gold on the thermocouple connections. Apparently, a little corrosion goes a long way.
Your CHT readings are just right. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

My conclusion is that I wish I had not put the OP gauge in, as now I have something else to worry about.

I was at Oshkosh last week talking to a fellow Sonerai (VW powered) guy that was telling me all the things he had done trying to cure one cylinder that EGT was running 90 degrees hotter than the others. Changed the baffling, intake manifolding, etc. Spent all summer fooling with it. I said, "rear right, correct?" Yeah. "I know exactly what is wrong." His eyes lit up, and I said, "Too much instrumentation." 

[Howard R]

Some might find this informative, if not entertaining: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=31791.0;nowap

Since then, I have switched to Amsoil 20W50.  (Brief detour to rant about allegedly "synthetic" oil in the US.  When it first came out, Mobil1 was true synthetic.  Then Castrol came up with a "more refined" petroleum version (I think it is called Group III) that they said was "almost as good" so they labeled it as synth.  Mobil sued them, Castrol convinced a judge to rule their way, and ever since we have some brands (now including Mobil1) that still label the Group III as synthetic.  Unless the bottle says which base stock is used (synthetics are either poly-alfa-olefin based or an ester based polymer) it ain't the good stuff. /rant)  The Amsoil gives me a good 10 psi more at 120 C at "Guzzi speed" (4k rpm), and the idle pressure rarely drops below 8-10 psi at elevated temps, even in traffic.  At cold start, idle pressure is bouncing off the relief valve at about 65 psi so I usually try to warm the bike up for 2-3 minutes before riding off even in the summer, and then ride "gently" for the first couple of miles.  That might be better with a 10W60, maybe I'll find out some day.  Above 110 C I still get about 40-45 psi at 4k rpm, which I consider minimally adequate using the old "10 psi per thousand rpm" rule of thumb.  That's where I get the 10 psi more than with the Mobil1.  I think 20W50 is exempt from the EPA's insistence that manufacturers remove lubricants from motor oil, the last batch of Amsoil that I bought says that it includes plenty of zinc, right on the bottle so that's a bonus for my flat tappets.

I have also explored the possibility of adding a later sump with the oil cooler.  That would require changing, or at least modifying, the timing cover because the fins on the bottom of the cover interfere with the oil cooler stuff on the sump so I have decided to just attack the problem with better oil.  So far that seems to be adequate.

Hope this helps you a little, Rodekyll.

Howard

[rodekyll]

It's all helping.  :)

Are you saying the 20/50 did better hot than 10/60? 

[Chuck in Indiana]

It's all helping.  :)

Are you saying the 20/50 did better hot than 10/60?

I don't *think* that was what he was saying.. <shrug>

[rodekyll]

I was confused.