Author Topic: Turning over old motor  (Read 2817 times)

Offline GuzziMax

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Turning over old motor
« on: January 29, 2019, 08:09:01 PM »
Got a 71 Ambassador, been sitting in a barn 10 years. I’m planning to see if it’s free by putting it in gear & turning the rear wheel. Is it recommended to put some lube in thru the spark plug hole first? What kind of lube & how to get the cylinder lubed  all around since the cylinders are on an angle? Thanks for any advice.

Offline handyandy

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2019, 08:14:45 PM »
I like to use a 27mm wrench on the front of the crankshaft to turn the engine. Some OB blaster for a couple of days wouldn't hurt.

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2019, 08:36:15 PM »
Use some Marvel Mystery Oil and let it sit a few days...then use the wrench to try turning the crank...

Offline lrutt

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2019, 09:02:54 PM »
I'd turn it just enough to show that it turns but then check the bores.
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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2019, 09:02:54 PM »

oldbike54

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2019, 09:26:13 PM »
 What Irutt is referring to is that the motor will have chrome plated bores . Do not even attempt starting it until that is dealt with . Lots of info here about the subject .

 Dusty

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2019, 09:40:36 PM »
I wouldn't.
Charlie

Offline s1120

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2019, 06:12:39 AM »
On a engine with normal steel bores Id pull the plugs, spray a little PBlaster in there, and put a wrench on it..  10 years isnt that long on a sealed up motor thats out of the weather..  Now chrome liners....  Id defer to the rest of these guys first.. Really not that hard to pull a head and check on these.. 
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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2019, 08:06:35 AM »
First pull the plugs and get you a pencil magnet and verify if it does or does not have the stock chrome plated cylinders installed. If the chrome cylinders are still installed I'm with Charlie, DO NOT turn the motor over there is nothing to be gained by doing so. If the cylinders are iron or have been replace or re-plated with nikasil/nikasil then it wouldn't be a bad idea to shoot a little oil in the cylinder to help lube things up before attempting to turn the motor over. 
 
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Offline brider

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2019, 08:31:07 AM »
First pull the plugs and get you a pencil magnet and verify if it does or does not have the stock chrome plated cylinders installed.

I can never remember....is it the chrome that a magnet will NOT stick to, or nikasil?

And another thing, kind of off-topic: Whether chrome or nikasil (or iron), are these cylinders steel-sleeved, or can chrome/nikasil be applied to the aluminum base metal? Seems kinda like a dumb question, because obviously an iron bore is sleeved.

And if steel-sleeved, why wouldn't a magnet "feel" the steel beneath the thin layer of chrome or nikasil?
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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2019, 08:44:11 AM »
I can never remember....is it the chrome that a magnet will NOT stick to, or nikasil?

And another thing, kind of off-topic: Whether chrome or nikasil (or iron), are these cylinders steel-sleeved, or can chrome/nikasil be applied to the aluminum base metal? Seems kinda like a dumb question, because obviously an iron bore is sleeved.

And if steel-sleeved, why wouldn't a magnet "feel" the steel beneath the thin layer of chrome or nikasil?

A magnet will not stick to chrome bores, very slightly to Nikasil/Nigusil and very well to iron liners.
 
Original cylinders have the chrome plating directly onto the alloy cylinder casting. When having original cylinders replated, the "Nikasil" is applied directly to the alloy cylinder casting. Nikasil is slightly ferrous, thus a magnet will have some attraction to it. Chrome is totally non-ferrous. So, unless chrome is applied to steel (or another ferrous material) then a magnet won't stick.

FWIW, cast iron bores and steel sleeves can be Nikasil plated, but that doesn't really apply to Guzzis.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 08:44:29 AM by Antietam Classic Cycle »
Charlie

Offline M0T0Geezer

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2019, 11:48:51 AM »
... and here's 11 minutes of Starting Old Motors...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAYIZ2xMuFU

The first one up might could be an old Guzzi Bacon Slicer...

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2019, 12:04:50 PM »
... and here's 11 minutes of Starting Old Motors...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAYIZ2xMuFU

The first one up might could be an old Guzzi Bacon Slicer...

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No body is saying you cannot start these old motors. Its the damage that may be done by doing so.
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Offline Toecutter

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2019, 12:06:13 PM »
I gotta know... why chrome in the first place?
Old enough to say I've done it, young enough to do it again.

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2019, 12:28:47 PM »
I gotta know... why chrome in the first place?

At that time, it was considered the thing to do..
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oldbike54

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2019, 12:46:12 PM »
At that time, it was considered the thing to do..

 The hard chrome plating actually worked really well , how many loops and T's ran to big mileage with little trouble ?

 Dusty

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2019, 02:58:28 PM »
I think its the difference between the expansion rates of aluminum and chrome that causes the chrome to loose its adhesion. its hard so when it gets into the oil it embeds in the soft parts and happily cuts away.  It can add about $1500 to a repair bill just to run it around the place if its afflicted
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2019, 03:47:46 PM »
The hard chrome plating actually worked really well , how many loops and T's ran to big mileage with little trouble ?

 Dusty

Many. Cheesehead at MG Cycle had a loop rig with over 100K on it.. but.. it was ran regularly. My understanding is the cylinders deteriorate from long periods of inactivity.
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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2019, 05:20:18 PM »
I wonder if the root cause is the variability in the manufacturing process.  Some flake, some don't , I agree with the regular use theory, I've seen it as well but why is that? Many years ago I heard that Porsche maybe, had tried it as well , chrome over aluminum, that didn't work out so well, but I don't have direct knowledge of that. I'd just yard it apart ,skipping starting it.
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Offline handyandy

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2019, 10:39:18 AM »
The last Eldo I resecued had been sitting in an unheated pole barn for ever. I resisted the urge to try to start it. I dropped the pan. It was filled with sludge that stuck to a magnet. The ambo will require a rebuild anyway.

Offline Tom H

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2019, 11:54:30 AM »
Many. Cheesehead at MG Cycle had a loop rig with over 100K on it.. but.. it was ran regularly. My understanding is the cylinders deteriorate from long periods of inactivity.

My Eldo had sat for years, the chrome was fine, no flaking, but it was worn looking at the top. My Ambo that was sitting for years near the ocean had 1 side that was flaking, the other was OK. The flaking one probably had a valve open I would guess?

EDIT: ...I should have mentioned that this is when I bought them 30 something years ago. Ran the Eldo for probably 20 years with the original barrels and the Amdo I only changed the bad one and ran it for about 5-10 years worth of riding.

I'm not saying that this is a good or bad thing to do. They now both have the Guilardoni(SP) kits on them.

Tom
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 05:55:19 PM by Tom H »
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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2019, 04:57:43 PM »
I spose if the chrome is cracked, its a place for moisture, maybe from an open valve, to get in and break the bond.  Im just spitballin here for its six below and I'm ready for spring!
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Offline Furbo

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2019, 08:00:50 PM »
Well,

regardless of whether the bores or bad or not (likely so), if you can turn that baby with the rear wheel you're too damn young v& tough to be riding a loop!!  :bow:
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Offline GuzziMax

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2019, 02:55:57 PM »
Thanks for the input. I shot some Marvel in the cylinders, let it sit awhile, and it turns over well in 2d gear. Tells me at least the drivetrain is functional. I’m going to drop the pan next and check it out. Any advice while I’m doing that? This is the most interesting machine I’ve had in a long time. I was a car mechanic in the 60’s & the technology takes me back. My new bikes are too complicated, but they compensate for my aging reflexes(ABS is a Godsend). This will be a long project. The parts are in 4 boxes. Just basic rolling chassis & drivetrain together. BTW I’m 70 yo.

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Re: Turning over old motor
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2019, 04:09:12 PM »
Thanks for the input. I shot some Marvel in the cylinders, let it sit awhile, and it turns over well in 2d gear. Tells me at least the drivetrain is functional. I’m going to drop the pan next and check it out. Any advice while I’m doing that? This is the most interesting machine I’ve had in a long time. I was a car mechanic in the 60’s & the technology takes me back. My new bikes are too complicated, but they compensate for my aging reflexes(ABS is a Godsend). This will be a long project. The parts are in 4 boxes. Just basic rolling chassis & drivetrain together. BTW I’m 70 yo.

Well, if you're going to have the pan off anyway, see if a magnet will stick to the cylinder wall. Not at all = chrome, slightly = "Nikasil", very well = iron liners. In this case, chrome will definitely not get you home and could leave you at least $2000 poorer.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 04:09:45 PM by Antietam Classic Cycle »
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