V100 Mandello Merged Threadfest

[bad Chad]

Huzo, that was pretty funny. 

[kingoffleece]

I should have been more specific.  ABS, improved lighting, and the like most certainly have a place.  I practice panic breaking all the time from 40 to 80mpn on the long straight back roads.  ABS still saved my bacon in a REAL stressful situation.  A big truck in both lanes in the WV mys will do that!  In a few others, all the training was in full effect and the ABS never kicked in.  But that ONE time was huge............... .........

[Huzo]

The slipper clutch is only useful on clutch less downshifts,  It will prevent the shock loading you describe until the engine and rear tire forces line up. Up shifting under acceleration only requires a brief ignition cut to shift, no different than blipping the throttle to shift without clutching.  As long as the computer timing is spot on no damage to the driveling will result from using the quick shifter or auto blipper. The Tuono has a cassette gearbox so even if you lunch the shift dogs its an easy rebuild. I was in hopes the v100 has the same but I doubt it.

My suggestion in response to that Lucian is this.
“Blipping” the throttle in the time honoured manner, is what we do to get the rotating mass up to the rpm (or as close as we can) to that which is required for the next gear on a downchange. This is not and never was to match the spinning gearbox internals in preparation for the dogs to engage, it is bringing that 500 rpm increase into the system, so that when you pop the clutch back out after the change, the flywheel and internals are at or about the required revs.
The auto blipper will do nothing to achieve this end unless the clutch is disengaged simultaneously, clearly blipping the throttle with the clutch engaged will not cause the revs to rise.
Try riding down the road at 50 mph in 4 th gear and without pulling the clutch, blip the throttle.
How much will the revs rise ?
Zero.
Clearly, the action of blipping the throttle will not disengage the clutch, if that were true, the a sudden opening of the throttle would do the same. If the action of tapping the gear lever is what commands the slipper to disengage, then I’ll take a step back.
If I’m to understand that the clutch is thrown momentarily at the instant of the blip in conjunction with the tap on the lever, then I’ll withdraw my comments.
As for the ignition cut on the upshift, sure that will throw the torque loadings into reverse while the sparks are missing, but nothing has changed regarding the deceleration loads inherited in reducing 500 rpm in 0.2 seconds.
It will not be a 200,000 km trouble free gearbox.

 I’ll wait for the day that I’m sitting at a table with a mechanical engineer and find out where my reasoning is flawed.

[Huzo]

Huzo, that was pretty funny. 

Yep BC I can see it now.
A whacking great barn door on the bike, with a smaller lip fixed to the top edge with a small piece of plastic glued on top of that….etc.
But maybe not…

[jacksonracingcomau]

[quote author=lucian link=topic=112212.msg1838270#msg1838270 date=1667164253
Up shifting under acceleration only requires a brief ignition cut to shift, no different than blipping the throttle to shift without clutching. 
[/quote]
I actually can’t understand HOW anyone can do that let alone why.
Clutchless up is easy and normal on most bikes, even my old loopy with a 4 speed (and a very light flywheel)

Try riding down the road at 50 mph in 4 th gear and without pulling the clutch, blip the throttle.
How much will the revs rise ?

Lots, just tried that, wife fell off the back, maybe I shouldn’t have done it cresting a speed hump
Throttle increases revs on my bikes, clutched or not, doesn’t yours ?

In all seriousness, go to racetrack, historic meeting to understand blipping
Modern to hear and believe quickshifter

[Huzo]

I have NEVER said it can’t be done.
All I maintain, is that the cumulative effect will mean you’re handing over a tired gearbox @ 60,000 km to some poor unsuspecting, wide eyed buyer.
No thanks…
Guzzi are doing what must be done, pandering to the pseudo racer in their customer. The price will be paid down the road by the third or fourth owner….

[Bulldog9]

Call me a luddite, curmudgeon, old school, or classic rider, but I have little interest in rider aids even as mundane as cruise control.

In many ways I prefer carbs and points and gravity fed fuel systems, but have mostly accepted the benefits of ECU controlled ignition and fuel systems. I also have accepted ABS and TC mostly because they are transparent in all but the most extreme situations, and I rarely get there.

Other than that, active suspensions, throttle by wire, rider modes, quick shifters, corner management, video game screens, phone and text management systems are things I have no interest in and would rob ME of the experience I seek when riding. I will intentionally avoid those if at all possible.

The only MC I've had with cruise control was the MGX21 and I tried to use it several times but just didn't like it. My 'lifetime' mileage is just under 500K miles, and not up to many of the serious riders here, but having done dozens of IBA rides, hundreds of multiple thousand mile trips and uncounted 300 mile days, even avoiding super slab and state highways that involve hundreds of miles without shifting (meaning steady pace), I'd rather just use my hands than a system.

I'm NOT anti tech, or look down on it, I'd just rather not have it when it involves my direct inputs into riding or driving.

I will likely be buying a V100 based Guzzi in 2025. Up until the EICMA reveal of the Stelvio, I assumed it would be a Mandello. Either way, it will be a model without the active suspension and quick shifter options, and I hope Guzzi gives us that option.


 

[lucian]

I guess I should have used clearer terms to describe "blipping" . A clutch less downshift is only possible if you increase the throttle up to allow the gears to mesh and allow the engine to freely accelerate to meet the new drive train speed. The problem with a traditional Guzzi is the inertia from it's very heavy rotating mass. The engine takes too long to accelerate so the transition will be anything but smooth without slipping the clutch. Won' t be the case with the new motor. 50% less inertia and a slipper clutch . I'm sure the engineers are aware of the forces at play and there are lots of high mileage track bikes who's gearboxes have been pounded mercilessly with up and down quick shifters and haven't blown up.  Long ago I owned an RD 350 2 stroke and broke a clutch cable 40 miles from home. You could easily downshift at speed with that bike and no clutch because of it's light weight and fast revving motor. Not looking for an argument , just trying to clarify my poorly worded post that you pointed out. I think Huzzo makes a valid point that the traditional Guzzi motor would not be well suited for clutchless shifting especially down, because of the heavy internals. The new  motor is  completely different and if used properly should have a long service life. I really like the specs and for a ST it looks like it will be a very easy bike to service. It looks like the motive unit will be super easy to remove if necessary also.

[kingoffleece]

I tend to agree with Bulldog, Huzo, and that general kind of thinking.  I have no issue with ABS, as I've stated, and so what does it matter what I think?  Right?
But as we discuss, well, why not?  I came to Guzzi a LOT later than most but have become completely won over.  One of the biggest reasons is that all of the Guzzi bikes I've had required the rider to work with the bike.  If one "listens" to the machine it will tell them what it wants and how it wants it.
Other motorcycles offer so many rider aids that the operator becomes just that, an operator.  I can sum it up like this.  Working at Americade at the Guzzi demo area I heard the same thing over and over again from folks who got off test rides-99% from other brands.  VERY few seemed to understand that a Guzzi needs to rev a bit more than many other bikes-they seemed to have zero understanding of the power band concept-and that same 99% had NO concept of finding N at a stop.  When instructed to feather the clutch out a hair and it'll pop right in they looked at me like I had three eyes.  I walked away after two days thinking a huge portion of the riding public expect a motorcycle to operate just like a car.  And lots of bike do.  Guzzi still seems connected to how bikes felt in the past, and that's not a bad thing.  No, I'm not a dinosaur.  But, like Bulldog9, I like to have a machine that rewards me with being in sync with it.
YMMV, as it should.

[Jorg66]

The V100 needed to happen with all its Modes,Gadgets and so onto secure the survival of the Brand. Do I  like it ,Yes to an extend ,but more for very simple reason , ...still V2,still different . Will I buy one soon ,probably not .
Do I need ,Ride by wire [have that on the 1400] not really ,do I need 3 or even 4 riding Modes ,No ,[tried it on our 1400 in the rain ,...so be it] .
Cruise on the other Hand ,....well we live in the part of the country with "1000 km straights] lol ,Cruise comes in handy at times.
Our2018, V7 is still as old school [the way i like it] as it comes .But each to there own.
Sometimes i ask myself how did I /we manage 'back than' riding my slighty modified Kawa Z550 sometimes up to 185 km/h chasing a Red Porsche,Lol .It was as pure motorcycling as it gets .No Traction control ,ABS ,Quickshifter   :laugh
After that I decided ,to switch to a Singlebanger Guzzi and that was good fun as well ,...slower pace and enjoyment.

Anyhow, we may not like whats coming or has happend already but the 'next Generation' does and wants it .Here is [perhaps] hoping they will go thru the same 'Cycle' ,...New,Fast, All the Gadgets and than might 'fall in love' with something older to appreciate simpler way of riding .

[Moparnut72]

Some of the "modern" features aren't for everyone but for some of us they are needed. Cruise control is a must for me on other than an around town bike. I have had two surgeries on my right hand and can't twist a throttle for long periods of time. The cruise on my 1400 was pretty crude as was the ride by wire. Both are quite good on my Triumph but the cruise on my Harley was excellent. The ride modes have been a mixed bag. The Harley didn't have them. The 1400 had three but I never even tried rain. The Turismo mode on the 1400 helped with the surging in town. On my Triumph the road mode is a bit aggressive for in town, rain is perfect. For me I would like to have most of this stuff, depends how well it is engineered as to whether I will use it or not. Quick shifters, naw.
kk

[Huzo]

In my opinion, Kingoffleece, Bulldog and Lucian have the same outlook as me.
I like their previous posts.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

I simply dont think I would use the quickshift. Whats quicker than pulling in the clutch and shifting? I mean it's muscle memory at this point, is it not a more or less involuntary action??

I have never attempted to shift my bike or my manual trans car without the clutch... simply put, why would you even want to? Seems utterly pointless to me. It would have never occurred to me that you would/should/could do that. They can add that feature or not, I dont see the point, so I would likely never notice it's possible.

[Ed / AF1 Racing]

we posted up the EU parts book if anyone wants to peek under the hood of the V100

https://www.af1racing.com/ProdImages/st3/GUV100.pdf

[bad Chad]

I simply dont think I would use the quickshift. Whats quicker than pulling in the clutch and shifting? I mean it's muscle memory at this point, is it not a more or less involuntary action??

I have never attempted to shift my bike or my manual trans car without the clutch... simply put, why would you even want to? Seems utterly pointless to me. It would have never occurred to me that you would/should/could do that. They can add that feature or not, I dont see the point, so I would likely never notice it's possible.

It never occurred to some civilizations to put wheels on their travois.  Why bother, when dragging two logs along the ground works just fine?

[egschade]

we posted up the EU parts book if anyone wants to peek under the hood of the V100

https://www.af1racing.com/ProdImages/st3/GUV100.pdf

Thanks for sharing Ed - interesting stuff! If we download the parts manual does that mean we have to buy a V100?

[lucian]

Thanks for posting the parts manual Ed, Lots of cool new  stuff here,  It looks like the valve adjustments are indeed shims over the valve stems. Interesting that it looks like you will only need to pull the rocker shafts and remove the finger followers to access the shims. Much easier than having to pull cams  and buckets out.

[lucian]

An awesome new review,  What a gentle demeanor on this young fella.  Love his attitude.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-G1HsjAKEs

[Bulldog9]

I simply dont think I would use the quickshift. Whats quicker than pulling in the clutch and shifting? I mean it's muscle memory at this point, is it not a more or less involuntary action??

I have never attempted to shift my bike or my manual trans car without the clutch... simply put, why would you even want to? Seems utterly pointless to me. It would have never occurred to me that you would/should/could do that. They can add that feature or not, I dont see the point, so I would likely never notice it's possible.

I've long shifted with out the clutch up and down from 3 & up. It is nice to snick through the gears clutch less and is effortless when you know the vehicle and when/how to do it. I still do on the Stornello, but my other Guzzis arent interested in it. Coming off an FJR and into a Griso and Norge, I was perplexed why I could not do it smoothly. It didn't feel right so I stopped. The Stornello is different, I can easily go 3-6 without issue through control of throttle and shifter.

The reason as has been explained to me is the ***ROTATING*** mass, mainly the flywheel that makes this difficult.
***=Hugo induced edit

This is what all the boy racers and techies want, so it makes sense to me that Guzzi would do this given the V100 has a different flywheel and lighter RM. I wouldn't stay away from a bike if it had it, but given the option, I'd go without it and do what I've been doing since I was 14......

Cars are a whole other story.

[Huzo]

Well, the flywheel mass is not reciprocating. It possesses a certain amount of angular momentum that has to be altered dramatically.

[Bulldog9]

Well, the flywheel mass is not reciprocating. It possesses a certain amount of angular momentum that has to be altered dramatically.

The pistons and crank are reciprocating, the mass of the flywheel is spinning, the inertia of that weighted/heavy mass is to what I  refer sir. 

[Moparnut72]

When I upshift I barely move the clutch lever, silent and smooth shifts. I do the same on my Triumph. I guess I am effectively shifting clutch less. Downshifting more normal with blips as needed. The two bikes are a bit different, the Guzzi, V7lll, shorter throws with little detent feel. The Triumph when looking for neutral I can feel the detents. The Guzzi not at all, it is more like putting the lever in the proper place. I think that is why we hear so many noobie complaints about how hard it is to find neutral on our beloved Guzzis. I don't prefer one over the other, they are just different. I think the Triumph has stronger detents due to the wet clutch.
kk

[Huzo]

When I upshift I barely move the clutch lever, silent and smooth shifts.
kk

Exactly the same here, hardly discernible but enough to just “crack” the clutch and provide the cushioning effect that’s needed.
More importantly, it’s the time taken to put the shift through that is the saving grace. I’ll wager that yours (and my) method is not slamming the change through in the same time interval as the quick shifter does.

[blackcat]

First photo's I've seen with the head guards.

[Moparnut72]

Exactly the same here, hardly discernible but enough to just “crack” the clutch and provide the cushioning effect that’s needed.
More importantly, it’s the time taken to put the shift through that is the saving grace. I’ll wager that yours (and my) method is not slamming the change through in the same time interval as the quick shifter does.

I don't even really move the shift lever very far it seems to go into the next gear all by itself. I guess a couple of years on a /2 and many on a /5 followed by a /6 helped me learn to finesse a gearbox. The Guzzi gearboxes are smooth as silk compared to those derelicts.
kk

[lucian]

Been scouring the engine diagrams and another interesting improvement is the crank main bearings are replaceable both front and rear unlike the 1200 8v  BB 's where the front main is  integral to the engine case, 

[Phil/TX]

Just to clarify gentlemen, YOU DONT HAVE TO USE THE QUICK SHIFTER. It has a clutch and shift lever just like other bikes.

[auzziguzzi]

Been scouring the Parts Book that Ed posted at https://www.af1racing.com/ProdImages/st3/GUV100.pdf
Trying to figure how this thing works. Scratching my head a bit here.

For a start : which way does the engine rotate if you're standing in front of the V100, looking towards the rear end?
Clockwise or anti-clockwise?

The two shafts in the gearbox, which implement the six ratios, seem straightforward enough.

But I'm somewhat puzzled by the Primary Drive. 
Referring to Table 03.160, is the Primary pinion driven directly by the crankshaft gear or is it driven by the counter balancer gear?

It looks like the Primary driveshaft is splined into the Clutch Hub (inner part)
which drives the Clutch Drum (outer part)
which drives the Clutch Drum gear pinion (solidly attached to the drum)
which drives the Engine Gear (Item 31 in Table 03.180)
which drives the Input Shaft of the gearbox
which drives the Output Shaft of the gearbox via one of the six ratios
which drives the Final Drive and wheel.

It must be very busy in there at 9000 rpm.

[lucian]

 the rotation would be  counter clockwise when looking at the motor from the front, The opposite of the traditional Guzzi configuration due to the clutch and driveline being driven by the counter rotating shaft , although a bit more complex internally the external layout is brilliant. Like the wet clutch access and the rear mounted alternator . A lot of stuff fit into the vee for sure , going to be really tight in there.  I imagine a tb balance may be a bit of a chore.

[lucian]

Fixed it , traditionally clockwise viewed from the front, the new motor will be the opposite, Good catch Huzzo . I always think of engine orientation as sitting on the bike , my mistake