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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: oldbike54 on November 14, 2016, 10:00:43 PM
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Just completed a very interesting discussion with a really smart guy (yes , a member here) re motorcycle safety . Now , I make no claims to being capable of keeping up , but most of it makes sense , and his assertions on this subject jibe completely with practices I have employed for at least 40 years and ?00,000 miles with no real accidents or tickets .
So here are the salient points .
1 Riding at a slightly elevated pace while fully engaged is safer than riding slow and not being engaged .
2 Working on the basic skills of riding a MC until they are done at a subconscious level allowing the conscious brain to focus on traffic and conditions is important . Clutch , throttle , and brake functions should require very little conscious thought .
3 Never stop in the middle of a lane , always move to one side , whether or not a car is present or not . Stay out of the oily spot .
4 When riding on a multi-lane road during times of high traffic , get in the fast lane and roll the throttle on , that way you only have to watch 2 sides for sudden movement while keeping a check on your mirrors . Plus , most modern multi-lane freeways have an inside shoulder to use an escape path .
5 Gear is great , but is no replacement for good riding skills , and turn indicators and horns do not create a force field .
6 Serious dirt bike skills always make a better street rider .
7 In the end , a committed motorcycle rider that is serious about always learning is a safer rider than the casual rider .
Dusty
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8. When in doubt, gas it.
Seriously - has gotten me out of unstable status more than once.
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I always thank my dad for teaching me to ride trials as a kid. I agree with number 2, knowing how to control the bike without thinking about it so you can concentrate on other issues. Always be thinking of an escape route, give yourself room and make yourself seen. Oh and stay out of town and ride on low traffic two lane roads. :wink:
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...... 2 Working on the basic skills of riding a MC until they are done at a subconscious level allowing the conscious brain to focus on traffic and conditions is important . Clutch , throttle , and brake functions should require very little conscious thought .....
Being a late comer to motorcycle riding this is the one that I remain cautious of as I know I run out of "band-width" to process everything that comes at you.
I'd also add at No. 9 Advanced training. I spent a day on a Bike-safe course over here run by the Police - I learnt a hell of a lot
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Good points all. Copied and saved.
Additional to Item 1, a few mph faster than the traffic flow means that potential problems tend to arrive from up front where you can see them coming.
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Just completed a very interesting discussion with a really smart guy (yes , a member here) re motorcycle safety . Now , I make no claims to being capable of keeping up , but most of it makes sense , and his assertions on this subject jibe completely with practices I have employed for at least 40 years and ?00,000 miles with no real accidents or tickets .
I've got few months and few thousand miles on the saddle of a bike, but I can summarize what kept me out of troubles in my hundred of thousands of miles in a car like this: "Behave like all the other dwellers of the road are a bunch of drunken monkeys". What I've learned on a bike will complete the statement: "Behave like all the other dwellers of the road are a bunch of drunken, blind ad deaf monkeys".
Eery time I hit the road I apply this principle, and I can stay out of trouble, while consistently driving much faster than average traffic flow.
I use the same criteria even in the parking lot infact. My wife gets mad because I always find the most remote parking spot at the supermarket, but I'm sure that this has saved me hundreds of scratches and dents over time.
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If you start with #6 (dirt bikes) #2 comes naturally (use of controls) I use my trials riding skills every time a ride. Keep all controls covered at all times.
I also ride a little faster than traffic. I call it "blow the flow" I feel more visible to cars around me. As always, following too closely behind a can can get you in trouble. A car can straddle something in the road and you might not see the obstruction.
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All of those are good, but, the one that has kept me out of trouble the most is this. Especially the blind part.
"Behave like all the other dwellers of the road are a bunch of drunken, blind and deaf monkeys".
Drive as if NO one sees you, at all.
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8. When in doubt, gas it.
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I think you meant to say Goose It!!!! :boozing:
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8. When in doubt, gas it.
That's the dirt bike skills.
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I have taught over 1000 beginners via the MSF program since 2008. Number 2 is the most difficult thing for new riders to learn. I will add number 8-keep your head and eyes up and focus on what is around you. There are no lights, bells or whistles that will tell you how to ride. The instrument cluster is not autopilot. If any one has taken the BRC, remember exercise 2? Back and forth across the range while paddle walking then working toward getting the feet on the pegs. The phrase I use most is "Stop looking down. Get your eyes out of the cockpit." Riding is not like playing a video game.
Thanks for the list.
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I wrote this blog about riding to the local alt news web site last week. Similar ideas, not as detailed but a little bit of contrast to the cruiser crowd and the "biker" deal.
https://nondoc.com/2016/11/09/riders-advice-motorcyclists-drivers/
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As always, following too closely behind a can can get you in trouble. A car can straddle something in the road and you might not see the obstruction.
Yup. Bent a rim changing lanes and hitting a wood block. Changing lanes opens up a new perspective on the road ahead. Stuff may be in your way that wasn't before and that you couldn't see. Not following too closely can be hard to accomplish when you need to be able to avoid unexpected obstacles, but need to do it anyway.
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That's pretty much how we all rode, after the obligatory 2 yrs
of crash and learn technique back I the late 60's. Still do with
Modern refinements like "counter steering" :)
I use to drive cabs in Sydney and found the just a little faster
than the surrounding traffic coupled with reading the traffic
properly to be the least tiring and most effective way to handle
it for 12 hrs at a time. Pushing through is no more effective,
More dangerous and more tiring. A place to be Assertive and
incisive, not aggressive.
Slow riding is good as well as dirt - was a Posty on a CT110
for a while in semi rural surrounds. You ride one handed most
Of the time, your either sticking one in as you go by or grabbing
the next with the other most of the time.
Maurie.
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The old timers told me "learn to recognize what trouble looks like before you get there".
I've taken two Stayin' Safe over the road classes. Time WELL spent and a great deal of fun to boot.
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If riding for 45 years and not crashing is a judge of good skills, that's me...I bought my first dirt bike last year, I have fallen down on it :grin: Actually I consider myself an average rider who's mediocre skills have been assisted by machines with reputations for good handling over power and style...
My tricks, never stop on a busy road to make a left turn...When coming to an intersection watch the head of the driver in a car waiting to cross the intersection...The driver's head will swivel right and left and if the driver doesn't focus on you then he hasn't seen you and will pull out...Loud pipes don't save lives but a loud horn can....Dirt bike experience can sharpen street skills... But I'll argue that if you're riding a 700 pound bike ,dirt bike skills may not apply...
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As a 50 year ridder and ex motor cop allow me to jump in. All of those points were great and drilled into our heads constantly, if I may add a couple.
1- when ridding wet roads watch the white and yellow lines as they are not asphalt or concrete
2- slow down when approaching railroad tracks and hit them dead on not at an angle.
3- treat every vehicle that approaches an intersection like they don't see you so slow down and attempt to get eye contact.
4- excessive speed is the major cause for MC fatalities.
5-the most dangerous aspect of nite time ridding is animals, deer, dogs etc. there again your speed is a major factor for surviving a collision with them
Do not over ride your reflexes, which may reduce with age.
One final little tidbit of information. The number one thing I have discovered over my many years of ridding that I know for a fact increases your odds of ridding without being abused or overlooked by other motorists is so simple......WEAR A WHITE HELMET AS YOU WILL GIVE THE APPEARANCE OF A MOTOR COP. There are uncountable times that I have had drivers who were about to pull out in front of me then slam on breaks when the probably could have made it. The determining factor as their thoughts was when they buckled their seat belt as I approached. I have actually had them laugh and give a thumbs up as I passed and a couple to offer me a one finger salute:).
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......WEAR A WHITE HELMET AS YOU WILL GIVE THE APPEARANCE OF A MOTOR COP.
Bravo on that one! I discovered this a few years back and it sure seems to work as people conditioned to watch for a police motor guy and they wear white!!
It works!!
Yes! That is a good tip! Never owned a helmet that wasn't white. Hey, they're cheaper too! (Guzzi content)
BTW.." gassing it", on pavement is not always a good choice!
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Great thread.
I'll add a few more.
1) Make yourself 100% responsible for every instant of your riding. Stop the typical driver's mentality of attributing blame to other drivers who don't follow the rules, the "idiots" who are driving badly, bemoaning the road engineers who designed an on-ramp, or the weather and how it affects your ride. Stop it---just stop it. Adopt the mentality that it's totally, 100% on you to avoid the accident. If bad drivers are breaking the rules, it's your job to anticipate how and when they will do that. It's your responsibility to identify and deal with the idiots. It's all on you---do not permit yourself to shift blame and responsibility onto others, as that will cause you to be less aggressive and active in your monitoring of risk.
You can have your lawyer argue who was "at fault" after the accident. That's really just a legal question. But while actually riding, put every shred of responsibility onto your own shoulders, and act accordingly.
2) Aggressively manage risk. Unfortunately for riders, most riders also driver cars. And cars teach drivers to have the feeling that they are relatively safe. Car inculcate the mind-set that you can passively observe deteriorating traffic patterns and increases in the risk profile. On a bike, I think you should aggressively manage each and every risk you actively seek out and identify. Idiot driver to your left who doesn't seem to be paying attention. Clear the area---aggressively get away from the now identified risk---slow down, speed up, change lanes. But do not permit the moron to be in a position to hurt you. Maybe it's ok to do that in a car, but the bike is a different animal. Etc. etc.
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I like #7 , continue to learn .
I would add : It is easy , once you get away from traffic , out on a country or mountain road , to get into a rhythm ; to start exploring the depths of your perceived abilities .
A rider on public roads needs to discipline himself to ride at 2/3 to 3/4 , to allow for unforeseen conditions . Rein in the boy racer self image .
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Another one.
Reflect on the fact that accidents typically have multiple causes, and then adjust your riding accordingly. Think about the Swiss Cheese model of risk management.
The mental image I use is that risk is like a monster with multiple tentacles. This risk monster won't actually be able to hurt or kill you unless he gets a certain number of his tentacles wrapped around you. It may not be clear exactly how many tentacles it take to cause a particular accident, but typically the post-accident investigation will show multiple tentacles that were permitted to accumulate until disaster finally occurs.
Part of what active and aggressive risk management involves is the ability to detect when one of those tentacles starts wrapping itself around you, and then taking steps to get rid of that tentacle before more build up.
Suppose you are kinda tired, have been riding all day. OK, you have now permitted a fatigue tentacle to get hold of you. Going a bit fast to make time? That's a second tentacle--speed. Now you have turned west, and are riding into the setting sun. You just got your third tentacle, reduced visibility. Whoa, now it's beginning to rain a bit? You've got a fourth tentacle--reduced traction. Dang it, now you have some kid in a jacked-up pick-up truck who is tail-gating you a bit on that wet two lane country road? That's probably two or three more tentacles right there.
Don't just sit there. Get out your metaphorical risk management knife, and start stabbing and getting rid of these accumulating tentacles. Slow down. And/or a take a break and wait till sunset. Shed the tail-gater. Etc.
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Lots of good info here and some new stuff too.
I always pretend that I am invisible and what would that car do if I was not here? Would they pull out? Make a left turn? Change lanes? This really takes up a lot of my (limiter) mental power and makes riding safer but much less enjoyable around town. Partly why I like off road riding more now.
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This is an interesting discussion thread, thanks.
Several times in the past year I have watched drivers begin to roll as I approached them, and I responded with a full stop. It might have been referred to as a panic stop or an emergency stop, but I was not panicked and there was no emergency.
I would have ... probably ... been safe continuing on, the driver ... likely ... would have waited until I went past, but I viewed the stop as good practice, and also as deliberately keeping my trust threshold low. I know my trust threshold is higher than it could be, but if I stopped for every fool who began rolling as I approached I'd still be back in AZ where I bought the bike three years ago.
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I tend to treat all drivers as if they are sent to kill me...so I avoid them if at all possible.
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Oh, I forgot another very important life saving defensive act.
If you come up on traffic stopped, especially on the interstate, when you approach the vehicle in front of you, stay way to the left so if the next vehicle coming up behind you can't get stopped you can scoot past the stopped cars on the shoulder of the highway, avoiding getting hit from behind and pinned between two vehicles. There are many ridders killed every year like this.
One more, left turn vehicles blinded by the vehicle in front of you will make their turn when the car in front of you passes then turn in front of you.
Great post, even an old salt like me can get a few good pointers!
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Dan , we are all learning here :thumb: Of course the "smart" guy mentioned in the heading has yet to reveal himself , but if he keeps posting wise comments you will figure out who it is :laugh:
Dusty
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:thumb:
Dan , we are all learning here :thumb: Of course the "smart" guy mentioned in the heading has yet to reveal himself , but if he keeps posting wise comments you will figure out who it is :laugh:
Dusty
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Great comments.
One thing I've been focusing on for the last couple of years is 'Ride a smooth ride'. What I mean by that is smooth off the line, smooth into the corner, smooth out of the corner, smooth to the stoplight and so on.
I started practicing this notion of 'smooth riding' on a particularly twisty road a few miles from my house (LowRyter knows the one I'm talking about). I found that when I did this I could actually ride the road faster, safer and with less stress than when I was trying too hard. Over the course of time this mindset has permeated my riding style leading to a more satisfying (and I believe safer) rides.
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With cars at intersections watching their heads to see if they've
Clocked you can be unreliable - mostly it works but not always.
The reason is that we all have a small blind spot where the
Optic nerve comes together, you may "feel" the eye contact
yet they haven't actually seen you. As a Postie we rode bright
red bikes, wearing Dayglo yellow outfits with White helmets
And even a Dayglo yellow effing Flag on a 5ft stick waving
around and still got knocked over regularly.
So even if you feel eye contact has been made, still check
the tires for the first hint of movement.
An alternative I use often is to weave a little within my lane,
You can be "hidden" amongst a background of the cars
behind you going in the same direction at the same speed.
If you weave a little you move relative to that background
and stick out better.
I tend to do my traffic checks on a regular constant ordered
way. That way I get an updated picture of the Pattern of the
Traffic around me and as far back and in front as I can see.
You look not at individuals but at the pattern - Rogue drivers
Will stick out as they push and bully their way through because
They're aberrations that disturb the pattern.
You may laugh at me but I haven't used my Horn in 5.5 yrs
To me it's a temptation to put your fate in someone else's
Uknown hands. " oh - has he seen me? I'll toot my horn" so
you waste your "save my fat arse space" tooting at a car
that may have a 4,000W sterio with woofers turned up to 11
And the pricks probably listening to a phone AND texting.
Asses the situation and take your own action to secure your
safety rather than expect someone else to act because you
Tooted a dinky Horn.
Maurie.
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Maurie , that weaving thing works , or seems to . Reminded of the story George Gobel would tell about being stationed in Oklahoma while in the USAF . He was a radar guy , and made the rightful claim that he was obviously good at his job , as Oklahoma never came under attack during his watch
:laugh: Still , weaving is a good idea .
Oh , about that horn thing , never use it accept to honk at a friend , or cute girls :laugh:
Dusty
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SmithSwede and Ncdan nailed it!
I am a situational driver/rider. I WATCH EVERYTHING! I have been honked at on the bike for not going at a green left turn light because I refused to go until I saw an approaching vehicle stop. I don't know if they will stop. I don't know if they have their head into driving or the cell phone. So I'm not going to pull out in front of them until I am sure of their intentions. It a light not a physical barrier.
Guess it's the nearly 25 years of truck driving that crosses over to my riding. That extra look or pause has often saved my ass. I often just back off and slow down to get out of traffic. Sooner they pass, sooner they are gone. If I plan to exit or turn soon, I often slow down to also get away from other traffic. I can't stand it when someone passes then immediately turns or exits. So I won't do it to others.
I have watched other riders put themselves into a traffic situation that causes me to cringe. Often yelling, why in the hell did you box yourself in like that dumbass! Tailgating and cars on both sides! YIKES,
I ride for pleasure, so I try to not make it any more stressing than possible. I ride better that way.
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Rod , I love you brother :laugh: Great points :thumb:
Dusty
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Drive as if NO one sees you, at all.
I ride like that in general, but you don't want to take that TOO literally.
Suppose you're riding down the road, with a car some ways behind you, and a car pulls up to a stop on a road from your right, preparing to pull across your path.
If you literally were invisible ... (ie you really weren't on the road at all), then the driver on the right would 100% of the time pull right in front of you or into you, and (assuming you took the "I'm Invisible" route), you would slam on brakes hard to avoid his path. But THEN you'd get rammed by the car behind you, because he would never expect you to slam on brakes like that.
So you don't really do that. You cover the brakes, you slow down, and prepare an escape route, but you don't stop right in your lane until the guy has crossed the road; that would be dangerous.
The thought's a good one, the practice a little different, I think. Maybe it's just a quibble, but it's real to me.
Lannis
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[quote author=oldbike54 link=topic=87095.msg1373311#msg1373311 date=
Oh , about that horn thing , never use it accept to honk at a friend , or cute girls :laugh:
Dusty
[/quote]
That's prob. the best use for them too, but as mines
not even connected I wave at friends and being Old,
Grey and Wrinkly I don't think the girls mind if I don't
show appreciation for their still very attractive bits and pieces!!
Maurie.
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Maurie , that weaving thing works , or seems to . Reminded of the story George Gobel would tell about being stationed in Oklahoma while in the USAF . He was a radar guy , and made the rightful claim that he was obviously good at his job , as Oklahoma never came under attack during his watch
:laugh: Still , weaving is a good idea .
Oh , about that horn thing , never use it accept to honk at a friend , or cute girls :laugh:
Dusty
That weaving thing never occurred to me. An interesting and plausible concept which I intend to try.
I'm like you with the horn Dusty. I discovered its disadvantages when I was living in Christchurch. This was a the town with the most unpredictable traffic I've experienced yet. You could never trust a green light and pedestrians just wandered out in front of you any old time and place.
I found that if you tooted them they tended freeze right in front of you like deer in the headlights. A quick rev on the other hand (1970s mufflers. Rocketship sounded like a cross between a Harvard aircraft and a souped up tractor) had them making superhuman dives for the foot path.
The white helmet idea may have merit but I'm dubious of its effectiveness. My current helmet is the first one I've had that isn't white and I've not noticed a difference.
On the other hand, I borrowed a MOT (cop) bike from the workshop (Lucas) in Auckland one lunch time to go down town to my bank. I was amazed at the 3 or 4 hundred yard circle of absolutely perfect drivers around me, especially on the motorway.
That blew the invisibility myth out of the water. They do see you! It's just that, consciously or not, they ignore you.
For that reason I believe that one of the best things organised motorcycling could do for itself is a (TV) road safety add campaign focusing on the damage a motorcycle can do to a car. (which is a lot!)
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Interestin concept John .
Dusty
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Hey John,
There was a story going round about a guy who got frustrated
with commuting in traffic and put a flashing blue light in his
Fairing. No siren or anything - didn't matter as it worked a treat.
Maurie
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I'm hoping that a "fully engaged" slow rider is fairly safe too...... :evil:
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I'm hoping that a "fully engaged" slow rider is fairly safe too...... :evil:
Of course , just harder for us mere mortals to stay alert at 45 MPH :grin:
Dusty
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I know I just joined the forum, but this topic is so near and dear to my heart, I just had to overcome the n00b shyness and reply to this thread. I apologize if this is already common knowledge!
The issue of slightly weaving is a great technique, one that I learned of several years ago. It's actually called a SMIDSY weave...SMIDSY being "Sorry mate I didn't see you", as a cager will say after they ran you over.
It's explained very well in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqQBubilSXU
When I was an MSF instructor, I tried to allude to this technique but was prohibited from specifically endorsing it, as it was not in the MSF curriculum. I would get the word out during breaks when I could.
Anyhow, thanks to the OP for starting this thread, and to the forum in general for a great resource this new guy appreciates
Don
2015 GRiSO
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Don says "SMIDSY" , that is perfect :bow: Oh , and you are welcome and we encourage the input from new members .
Dusty
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One thing I wanted to add that makes it easier to see a car moving. Look at the tire, not the car. While your moving, the car looks like it might be moving or not due to the background, the tire in the the wheel well can tell the story.
I would like to add a variety of scenarios that could help that I experianced today. Like I was about to lane split a car in the car pool lane. He put his RH blinker on no where near a car pool exit then turned it off. To be safe I had to wait a few miles just to be sure he wasn't going to move over to get off somewhere. Did I mention that he was going 50 in a 65?
O well better safe than sorry!!
Be safe out there!!
Tom
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Of course , just harder for us mere mortals to stay alert at 45 MPH :grin:
Dusty
Some of us have a better endorphin pump than others..... requires less stimulus. :grin:
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Dusty
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Hey John,
There was a story going round about a guy who got frustrated
with commuting in traffic and put a flashing blue light in his
Fairing. No siren or anything - didn't matter as it worked a treat.
Maurie
I remember seeing one like that somewhere. His fairing was white and he had the word "TERIFIC" in big black letters on it. Wonder if I can find a photo...
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It's explained very well in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqQBubilSXU
Don
2015 GRiSO
Excellent Vid! I subscibed to this guy. Got to keep learning.
Welcome to the board Don. Don't let the curmudgeons disturb your equilibrium.
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Interestin concept John .
Dusty
I think it has something to do with perceived threat Dusty.
It's rare for example for a 15 ton bus not to granted the right of way (if it gets a bit pushy) whether it has a right to it or not. I suspect the basic 'rule of the road' is that the bigger it is the more right of way its got.
I know when I was riding through some nice forested twisties up near Taupo one day at about 70mph and I suddenly noticed my mirrors were full of Kenworth grill I didn't argue the point. It was a fist full of throttle and out of there! (It was a loaded logging truck!!!)
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All of those are good, but, the one that has kept me out of trouble the most is this. Especially the blind part.
Drive as if NO one sees you, at all.
In my experience, this is not enough. Sometimes other people DO see you, and aim at you, either you are on a bike or on a car. So everybody else's behavoir should also be considered totally irrational. In other word, expect always everybody to do the dumbest possible think, and most probably they will turn out even dumber than what you imagined.
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I ride like that in general, but you don't want to take that TOO literally.
Suppose you're riding down the road, with a car some ways behind you, and a car pulls up to a stop on a road from your right, preparing to pull across your path.
If you literally were invisible ... (ie you really weren't on the road at all), then the driver on the right would 100% of the time pull right in front of you or into you, and (assuming you took the "I'm Invisible" route), you would slam on brakes hard to avoid his path. But THEN you'd get rammed by the car behind you, because he would never expect you to slam on brakes like that.
So you don't really do that. You cover the brakes, you slow down, and prepare an escape route, but you don't stop right in your lane until the guy has crossed the road; that would be dangerous.
The thought's a good one, the practice a little different, I think. Maybe it's just a quibble, but it's real to me.
Lannis
I agree and it is one of the 'risk management' decisions like mentioned above. Like someone mentioned in another post/thread, I have stopped on a road to let someone pull in front of me because they were creeping and I just could not figure out what they would do (and no one behind me).
I did forget the SMIDSY weave. I do that a LOT when approaching intersections where there are left turn folks or cars entering from a side street. Heck, sometimes I do a little weave when I notice someone coming up fast from behind.
FWIW, riding bikes has made me a slower and I think a better cage driver as well. Even when driving my truck and, yes, even when pulling the RV trailer. Yes, people don't 'see' a largish pickup truck pulling a big trailer either. Compounded by everyone wanting to pull in front of you so they don't get stuck behind the 'slow' guy.
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When on two lanes stay toward the outside of your lane when traffic approaches as you are more visible at a further distance to oncoming vehicles that might be thinking of passing the vehicle in front of them.
GliderJohn
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I'm glad to see this weaving thing endorsed by several of you. I've been experimenting with it, and I think I'll do more. I've found it effective during:
Coming to a stop at night behind cars at a light
When somebody is mindlessly tailgating - not the deliberate kind, the clueless kind
Also I'm a pocket rider, some people call it gap riding. I've found if I find a pocket and weave around periodically the cars behind will assist me in maintaining that pocket by staying back because I look like a higher risk neighbor to them.
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I used to have a green fairing on the front of my calvin, and I wore a white helmet... In Belgium and germany, drivers literally pulled out of lane to let me pass, thinking I was Politzei.
Must have been just the right shade of green and just the right amount of CHIPS to pass for a law enforcement officer in drivers minds.
Weaving also does work.
great thread btw
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Yeah, I already have that cop look by riding a white Bassa with a white handlebar mounted fairing. I can see people react to me several cars ahead.
It doesn't help much, they slow down, move over, cause confusion in traffic. If I wore a white helmet it would reinforce that.
I have two red Hella horns I'm trying to find a method to mount. I am resisting putting them on the front of the fairing.
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Great thread to which I'd add just one more point. In spite of careful riding, stuff happens. I dress for the fall...always. ATGATT.
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Owned and rode a white airhead RT for years . Wore a black leather jacket and a white open face helmet most of the time . We don't have many motor cops in Oklahoma or Arkansas , but seems it still got peoples attention . Probably due to that TV show about California motor cops . Hmm , maybe some good can come from TV :shocked: :laugh:
About the weaving thing . My understanding is by weaving we present more of a 3D image than a silhouette . Makes it much easier for others to actually see us .
Dusty
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But I'll argue that if you're riding a 700 pound bike ,dirt bike skills may not apply...
Learning to instinctively stand on the pegs when running over something unavoidable in the road is useful on larger bikes, even though most consider it a dirt bike skill.
I've never had a 700-lb bike, but I once rode over a dresser drawer on a busy 8-lane highway in heavy traffic on my F800GS. Fully loaded for camping, it probably weighed over 550. And I rode over the donut-shaped base of a traffic cone on that same highway on my R1150RT, which was probably around 650 with loaded panniers and top case. Getting my ass off the seat and accelerating almost certainly saved me in both instances. Both times, I had to pull off at the next exit to slow my heartrate.
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Yeah, I already have that cop look by riding a white Bassa with a white handlebar mounted fairing. I can see people react to me several cars ahead.
It doesn't help much, they slow down, move over, cause confusion in traffic. If I wore a white helmet it would reinforce that.
I have two red Hella horns I'm trying to find a method to mount. I am resisting putting them on the front of the fairing.
Put a headlight modulator on that set up and you will have people pulling over left and right! I know I had one on my black Bassa, I wore a white helmet and would occasionally get people pulling over for me. Not sure its a great idea though, some cages might get pissed when they realize they duped themselves!
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So many greats points, advice and statement in this conversation! Allow me to add just one more thought. The all my years of ridding I only went down one time with damage and injuries. The second cause of this Accident was a farm tractor made a U turn in the road as I was passing, not a passing zone, the first cause of the accident was my lack of patience. Let me repeat PATIENCE:(
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Dan , that reinforces Smithswede's comments on how most accidents are due to a combination of factors , and how we must be the master of our own ride . Yes "PATIENCE" :thumb:
Rider here in Muskogee several years ago had a collision with an older gentleman . The older fella was negotiating a right turn into his driveway , and rather than come to a complete stop , he moved out into the center of the residential street to gain a better entry angle . The car driver even had his turn signal on . The motorcycle rider was in a hurry and attempted to pass the car on the right , instead of slowing down and allowing the car to complete its maneuver . The bike crashed into the car at maybe 10 MPH , no real injuries . Later , the rider came by all worked up over what happened , blaming the older man for what happened . "'Why was he moving left before he turned right?" Well , I never could get across to him that the accident was his fault , even though the officer that worked the wreck wrote the bike rider the ticket . Yes , patience .
Dusty
Dusty
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Dan , that reinforces Smithswede's comments on how most accidents are due to a combination of factors , and how we must be the master of our own ride . Yes "PATIENCE" :thumb:
Rider here in Muskogee several years ago had a collision with an older gentleman . The older fella was negotiating a right turn into his driveway , and rather than come to a complete stop , he moved out into the center of the residential street to gain a better entry angle . The car driver even had his turn signal on . The motorcycle rider was in a hurry and attempted to pass the car on the right , instead of slowing down and allowing the car to complete its maneuver . The bike crashed into the car at maybe 10 MPH , no real injuries . Later , the rider came by all worked up over what happened , blaming the older man for what happened . "'Why was he moving left before he turned right?" Well , I never could get across to him that the accident was his fault , even though the officer that worked the wreck wrote the bike rider the ticket . Yes , patience .
Dusty
Yep, that's about what I did Dusty, thanks for the response!
Dusty
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Agree with Dan on the patience too.
I suppose it's the basic necessity in traffic and at the root
of why I don't think aggressive works when your stuck with it.
Be assertive and read the whole of your surrounds and use the
power to take advantage of gaps which appear because you
Positioned yourself to do that 30 secs ago.
And you know when not to and when you need to wait because
You know what's behind you and beside you as well.
Maurie.
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Being predators, we have evolved to respond to movement. That stationary deer is invisible until it moves.
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Here is a scenario .
Operator is on a low powered motorbike , say 40 HP and 400 lbs . Said operator is travelling a rural 2 lane road containing some good curves at a spirited clip , not overly exuberant , just fast enough to be fun . He (or she) comes up behind a very slow moving vehicle that is acting in an erratic way . Operator is fairly patient and waiting for a safe enough place to pass , and being on a low powered bike , must wait a bit . Another vehicle comes up behind , and operator gives a clear indication of his intention to overtake the slower vehicle in front . Long clear passing zone appears operator gives left turn signal , checks his mirrors , enters left lane to pass, pins the throttle , hears a very loud roar just off his left rear , and more senses than sees a large PU attempting to overtake not only the slow moving car in front , but the motorcycle as well that is accelerating as fast as its 40 Shetlands are capable of . Operator responds instinctively and gets as far to the right as possible , almost touching the vehicle he is attempting to overtake all the while hoping the slower car won't move to their left . Large PU , blowing diesel smoke is half off the road to its left , and never lets off , almost clips a mail box and kicking up gravel and dirt . MC operator remains fairly calm considering , allows the large PU to continue on , although there is a fair bit of anger at how much disregard the PU driver has shown for the MC operator's life . Still , the operator is an experienced rider , and not prone to road rage , so after some choice expletives are exclaimed , and a middle finger displayed , operator regains control of his emotions , finds a safe place to pull over and dismount , considers calling 911 and giving a description of the PU and its very blond very female driver . Decides it won't do any good , smokes about half a cigar , tries to figure out what the lesson here was , figures out that some folks are just jackasses , smiles , chuckles , moves on.
Any thoughts on this ?
Dusty
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When on two lanes stay toward the outside of your lane when traffic approaches as you are more visible at a further distance to oncoming vehicles that might be thinking of passing the vehicle in front of them.
GliderJohn
By outside, do you mean away from the center line?
I like to be away from the center line just to keep distance from vehicles in the other lane.
But I sometimes think that may encourage oncoming (or following) idiots to pass with less than necessary roadway.
Sometimes I move closer to the centerline to 'discourage' passing by following cars for this reason. I don't do this right in front of them, but ahead aways as I anticipate the situation.
We will also have oncoming cars pass a string, intentionally forcing both lanes of cars to split and take the shoulder for them. Hasn't happened on the bike yet, but I study the shoulder and make an avoidance plan, when facing a long string of oncoming in case an impatient car just has to make his move.
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Here is a scenario .
Any thoughts on this ?
Dusty
Given that the operator checked his mirrors before the move, no, no comment at all. Except maybe that he might need better mirrors, and to say that I've been there.
Edit
What's a PU?
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Given that the operator checked his mirrors before the move, no, no comment at all. Except maybe that he might need better mirrors, and to say that I've been there.
Edit
What's a PU?
Sorry John , PU is American shorthand for a pick up truck , and this one was about the size of those buses you drove in NZ .
Oh , the operator's motorbike had really large clear mirrors . The whole thing was nothing more than a bully in a large vehicle acting like , well , a bully .
Dusty
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With no oncoming traffic or traffic that I can see behind I generally stay toward the centerline. When traffic is approaching that I cannot tell if it may have a vehicle close behind getting ready to pass I move to the outer line. Serves two purposes it creates movement and the second car can see you sooner.
GliderJohn
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I was in a similar situation Dusty, except I gave the finger to a lady who pulled out on me. She then tried to run me off the road for the next few miles in her sports car, until I pulled into a motorcycle dealership. She got out her car, shouting abuse, to which I replied "well you should have tried looking" She then realised a number of bikers were looking at her in amazement and backed off. My hear was really going.....
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There never seems to be an answer for plain thick asa brick
Stupid performed with dedication does there Dusty.
Maybe it's the fault of the Nanny State of Mind that saves
the terminally Stoopid from themselves - if they'd grown
up in my time they'd have already bin culled from the Gene
Pool.
We got a bad mix of aspirations over here.
A driving license is a right not a priveledge.
A Gov spouting absolutely bullshit impossible shit like
"We're aiming for Zero road fatalities"
Ect ect.
How 'bout tougher licensing that keeps the incapable from
getting behind the wheel?
Too simple?
Maurie.
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A bit over 20 years ago , a friend and I entered the highway in Reno NV , right in front of the MGM , northbound . I worked my way over to the left lane and Jim was momentarily next to me . A lime green sub-compact split lanes between our two bikes , maybe 20 mph faster . I had just bought an open face helmet , so I moved ahead and next to him , and said something that he could not hear , shaking my finger at him , like you would when correcting a small child . I think I even smiled .
He took a swipe at me with the car , as if threatening to knock me down . I moved on ahead . Looking in my mirrors I could see that traffic had slowed to a crawl behind me . Jim got in front of him with his K bike , and every time the car changed lanes to get around him , he got in front of him . Just two lanes then .
Now we have two crazies on the road .
They both exited behind me , so I doubled back at the next exit and met Jim coming back on the old highway .
He had followed the car onto a lot where a phone company had a couple of trucks working on the lines ; lots of workers .
The young man driving was no longer cocky ; they had locked themselves into the car , and girlfriend was terrified , crying her eyes out .
So he moved on . Found out later that the car was registered to girlfriend's mom . Seems those with the least to lose are the boldest , til they get caught .
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When I let out the clutch I am entering a combat zone. All other drivers are there to kill me either through negligence or design.
And yes there are MC casualties from friendly fire too.
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In response to Mike/mjptexas,
Ride Smooth. I agree.
I added to my stable last spring, a 2015 Ural cT sidehack. It's way fun to drive but a very different ride than a two-wheeler. (Took the 3-wheeler driving course two years ago to qualify for WA endorsement.)
With the new experience of handling a three wheeler comes the teaching of new muscle memory. And with that came, almost naturally, a desire and need to drive smoothly. A hack responds very differently to sudden changes in movement, like darting around an obstacle, than does a two-wheeler.
So, working on the smooth makes for a nice, controlled and comfortable ride.
Unfortunately, the rest of the stable does not get much attention of late. The iron-barreled RE awaits a facelift and the Baby Breva needs some attention. She won't run well at lower RPM's, tending to buck a lot. Or, (this is way fun) refusing to go more that 2,000 rpm after restarting while on errands. Lotsa fun to find that out once you pull into traffic. :undecided:
So, I am smoothly enjoying the utility and comfort of the sidecar before I have to come in out of the cold, winter rains and face the stablemates.
On a safety note, the Ural seems to be a lot more visible in traffic, but I still drive like no one is aware I am there and carry forth my active visibility actions, like standing up on the pegs or, leaning off the bike towards a non-seeing driver until my stare and looming mass catch his/her eye. (It works!)
One last thing, an "invisible" encounter I had on the Breva a couple of years back. I ride, fully aware that no one really sees me. (It is not a stealth mode.)
I saw the pickup about to pull out in front of me from an alley on the right. I slowed to "just upright" speed and the driver looked both ways and looked right at me but, nonetheless, turned left across the front of me. I was already prepared for that. The driver continued to look in my direction and, as he passed by my left side, I could see the "lightbulb" go on in his eyes. He just then realized, our eyes locked, no more that 4 feet apart, that he had pulled out in front of me. He mouthed an, "I'm sorry". I smiled and all was good.
The crazy part was that this guy was looking right at me the whole time, and only after he had cut me off, and after he had pulled alongside and was now staring at me from four feet away, only then did his mind register what he was looking at. It was really humorous to see that "light" come on.
Stay safe everyone.
-Jesse
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Circa 1991 had an encounter with a car full of teenagers , the driver swerved at me as they approached , all of the occupants laughing and yelling obscenities . Unfortunately for them , a witness knew the driver's dad , which led to a very unpleasant experience for the driver and his buddies . It was so bad I almost felt sorry for the kids , but not quite .
Dusty
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Circa 1991 had an encounter with a car full of teenagers , the driver swerved at me as they approached , all of the occupants laughing and yelling obscenities . Unfortunately for them , a witness knew the driver's dad , which led to a very unpleasant experience for the driver and his buddies . It was so bad I almost felt sorry for the kids , but not quite .
Dusty
A very satisfying outcome in that instance Dusty.
They do see you! It's just that, consciously or not, they ignore you.
For that reason I believe that one of the best things organised motorcycling could do for itself is a (TV) road safety add campaign focusing on the damage a motorcycle can do to a car. (which is a lot!)
I feel the need to expand a little on this.
Consider for a moment the frontal area of a motorcycle and rider. This will vary a bit from bike to bike and is less than most other vehicles. It is not unsubstantial though. Off the top of my head I would guess between 10 and 15 square feet.
A person who does not actually see 10 to 15 sq' is also not going to see a pedestrian, a cow or even perhaps some small cars.
It should be remembered that 'Smidgy' is the first excuse that pops into a motorists mind when he is trying to absolve himself of blame. More often than not it is outright fibbing. It goes into the stats just the same.
While I'm sure there are genuine cases of motorcyclists not being seen for one reason or another I would suggest that these in fact are quite rare.
What the motorist is doing when he looks, say at an intersection, is looking for threats. He feels safe in his car. Safer than normal in fact because his personal space is extended to more than normal and he is 'contained' as well.
(if you want to check out this effect try driving your car with it's windscreen removed. That is how I became aware of this phenomenon)
He, like most of us probably, has been able to relegate most of his basic driving tasks to the automatic pilot.
His eyes report the motorcycle to the auto pilot which promptly decides that such a small object does not represent a threat so it does not bother to report this to the Pilot (conscious mind)
He then "Does Not See You"
The techniques suggested here and elsewhere for being seen are all about getting the conscious mind to recognise you. This is far more likely to happen if the conscious mind has warned the auto pilot that "Hey! That thing is going to come right through the drivers door and punt me through the passenger window!"
On the cop bike I rode I could see masses of motorway traffic moderating their speed nearly half a mile ahead! The cop bike represented a threat, of a kind. It was seen!
That anyway was the thinking, be it right or wrong, behind the suggested ad campaign.
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Another one for the list.
Stay well away from heavy vehicles
Of those that I have known who have been actually killed on a motorcycle a disproportionate number involved heavy vehicles.
They are clumsy, they spit solid objects at you, they have numerous and often large blind spots.