Author Topic: 65 HP V7  (Read 39229 times)

Offline Muzz

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2015, 11:42:13 PM »
I hear tell that they do at Agostini's at least Dusty. They may have put the word about. :wink:
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Online Kev m

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2015, 07:46:16 AM »
That is a beautiful package. I have no issues with 70's performance or looks and am in fact quite happy with them. It's the breathless anticipation/pining for it as though it's anything special that's kinda entertaining to me.

"Look Ma - I made pasta as well as Grandma did!"

Todd.

The measure of what's special is the interest you have for it.

That's a wise statement and good reason not to criticize the pining.

But I'll go a step further and address the 70's performance. There's nothing 70's performance about a V7 or V9. They brake/stop better, they turn better, they generally weigh less or offer more room, they BREAK less often etc.

And EVEN IF power levels are the same (and considering different industry standards in rating power from then to today, not to mention the proliferation of hero dynos, myths, and outright lies, I'm not convinced they were), the truth is the modern bike is already doing more with less (i.e. meeting modern emissions standards while still giving that level of performance).

So yeah, there's a reason to pine.

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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #62 on: December 14, 2015, 08:08:52 AM »
They could have the controls where the Racer has.




Yeah, that's more like it, but I wonder if the exhaust wouldn't be in the way of them in the real 3D world..
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Offline professor

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2015, 11:49:50 PM »
I finally sorted this out in my mind. I called Piaggio of Europe and spoke to an underling in the marketing dept. at long length. It took four days to get this done. It is not the final answer, but as close as I will get in the US. Piaggio is rebuilding the Guzzi brand with huge investments of capital. There is a master plan of sorts. V7s are A2 bikes or Learner bikes limited to 50 HP. They must be tamper proof and not easily modified. In that vein the US is NOT Europe. Here in the US you can buy 200 HP at 16 and go riding. Not in Europe, no way. So, there is the capability to add a camshaft and new ECU map and get the 65HP we want. They did it. BUT the V7 is built as A2 compliant for the European market. What they propose is the have another platform ie: the Roamer completely separate from the V7 in terms of all components and basic design, then use that to accomplish what we (and others in the world market) want, more HP and torque as time moves forward. Piaggio is more than aware of what Triumph is doing. Same market niche. But Triumph is much larger player in terms of financial resources. Guzzi is being rebuilt one line at a time. You may not like the Roamer, but it is the future of small blocks.

So, while they could give us a 65HP V7 it would most likely not work out as that is not the purpose of the current V7s. They are A2 bikes for now. Not to say it can't happen, just not as likely as I would hope. 

Last and this is hard to say, but I will say it................w e don't buy enough Guzzis to make them jump through hoops. Guzzi and Royal Enfield are not too far apart in the US market in terms of sales. We can't demand much of anything until we are seem as players. They thought the new 1400s would be a bigger hit in the USA. Guess not. Vespa (also Piaggio) sells far better than Guzzi in the US. Why can't they crack this nut???

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2015, 11:49:50 PM »

Offline Muzz

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2015, 03:04:01 AM »
Why can't they crack this nut???

Looking at the US from a long distance away,  maybe it is because they seem to want to kill off all their good dealers?  <SHRUG>
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Offline Dogwalker

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2015, 05:19:54 AM »
To comply with the A2 licence, a bike must fulfill three conditions:
1) power output not higher than 35 kw.
2) kw/kg ratio not over 0.2
3) if it's a detuned version, the originary model from which it derives can't have a power output of more than 70 kw.

So a detuned V9, even if it derives from a 65 hp model, is perfectly A2 compliant, like the detuned Scrambler is.

That said, I find hard to believe that the 750 engine will survive after 31/12/2016. To keep in production two different engines is more costly than to produce only one, and for what gain, if all the competitiors are yet at, or over, 800cc?

Offline Cam3512

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #66 on: December 16, 2015, 05:44:32 AM »
So with all the cries for "more manly power", the fact is Guzzi's biggest engine (1400 line) didn't sell as well as expected, and Piaggio's Vespa sold more Scooters than Guzzi.  There you have it.
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Online Kev m

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2015, 07:02:07 AM »
Unfortunately I'm thinking something was lost in translation and/or the underling in the marketing department isn't much different from many of the underlings that work for Harley and don't understand motorcycles either.

For instance:

BUT the V7 is built as A2 compliant for the European market. What they propose is the have another platform ie: the Roamer completely separate from the V7 in terms of all components and basic design, then use that to accomplish what we (and others in the world market) want, more HP and torque as time moves forward.

But it's so obviously NOT "completely separate" in terms of "ALL COMPONENTS" and "BASIC DESIGN" - hell, cylinders/pistons, tank and some minor differences in controls aside, what's really different in design?

So, while they could give us a 65HP V7 it would most likely not work out as that is not the purpose of the current V7s. They are A2 bikes for now.


Or maybe this underling does understand and answered strictly what applies to THIS coming YEAR.

Because:



So a detuned V9, even if it derives from a 65 hp model, is perfectly A2 compliant, like the detuned Scrambler is.

That said, I find hard to believe that the 750 engine will survive after 31/12/2016. To keep in production two different engines is more costly than to produce only one, and for what gain, if all the competitiors are yet at, or over, 800cc?

Yeah, I'm still believing DogW's take on this!

« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 07:02:55 AM by Kev m »
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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2015, 09:26:50 AM »
And look what the company's marketing dept. sees as the modern customer!

 Fabulous? :shocked:
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 09:28:01 AM by Penderic »

Offline professor

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2015, 11:25:47 AM »
If the V7 tooling and setup has been paid for in terms of sales in may survive, but it is a very dated platform. Still effective however.  So, going back to the Nevada and the other iterations it should be well paid for.  The New V9 most likely is the future. As for the Vespa ad post, I think you nailed it. Yes that is exactly what the desired Piaggio/ Vespa consumer looks like.......young chic metro men and women.  I won't say more. The V9 buyer is the same guy with a beard, flannel shirt, retro leather jacket and battle scared helmet.

I think in the US given our rider/vehicle laws, we forget just how big the A2 issue is in Europe.  Maybe elsewhere as well.

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2015, 11:39:31 AM »
Snipped

Last and this is hard to say, but I will say it................w e don't buy enough Guzzis to make them jump through hoops. Guzzi and Royal Enfield are not too far apart in the US market in terms of sales. We can't demand much of anything until we are seem as players. They thought the new 1400s would be a bigger hit in the USA. Guess not. Vespa (also Piaggio) sells far better than Guzzi in the US. Why can't they crack this nut???

Maybe they don't understand that if you build what people want, then sales go up. Not having customers is not the customers fault. Moto Guzzi doesn't sell anlot if bikes because they don't make bikes a lot of people want to buy.

Only Apple can blame customers and sell more of something.

While hanging around the shop yesterday a young couple walked in. A V7 and one of those Ducati scramblers were sitting nearly side by side. They looked at both, tired them in for size and listened to the sales person go over the attributes of both.

This is a Guzzi shop with full service for Guzzi bikes and they also carry parts and seem to get them decently fast. If you buy a Guzzi from them or anywhere else, a close by dealer isn't a concern, they are easy to get to and public trans is everywhere if you have to leave the bike.

After a few minutes they turned away from the V7 and concentrated on the Ducati and never looked at the V7 again.  Guess what they bought?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 11:51:53 AM by Norge Pilot »

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2015, 11:50:52 AM »
If the V7 tooling and setup has been paid for in terms of sales in may survive, but it is a very dated platform. Still effective however.

What I believe Dogwalker is specifically referring to is that we are of the belief that the current V7 cannot make the next tier of EU standards which come into effect on 1/1/17, but the V9 was designed with those standards in mind.

For all we know that might be the primary reason for the change from the Heron to the Hemi.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 11:53:23 AM by Kev m »
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Offline professor

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2015, 11:56:07 AM »
What do MG customers want? The Norge sit unsold, the MG Adventure bike sit unsold. The new 1400s of both iterations sit unsold. So, none of these are the bikes people want. What is??? Maybe the V7s as they are the only bikes that move, even if very slowly. I live in the best climate in America to ride in. I see more motor scooters in one day than I see MGs in a year. My MG is so rare people take pictures of it. A new one at that I might add. So, what do MG riders want? Certainly not being made it seems.

Offline tonUPRacer

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2015, 01:13:24 PM »
What do MG customers want? The Norge sit unsold, the MG Adventure bike sit unsold. The new 1400s of both iterations sit unsold. So, none of these are the bikes people want. What is??? Maybe the V7s as they are the only bikes that move, even if very slowly. I live in the best climate in America to ride in. I see more motor scooters in one day than I see MGs in a year. My MG is so rare people take pictures of it. A new one at that I might add. So, what do MG riders want? Certainly not being made it seems.
Haven't sales improved? I was under the impression that both the V7 and 1400 are relative successes in terms of MG numbers? I think MG will always remain a niche brand similar to MV Augusta as long as dealers remain few and far between and reports of "character" remain as part of the ownership experience. As for us MG riders, the forum is full of folks wanting the higher output V7, a new Lemans, etc, I guess MG doesn't think there enough of those folks to produce the product. I recall that when a "Scramber v7" concept was debuted folks on this forum were saying "build it" I'll buy it, they have built one now, we'll see if anyone buys it.
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Offline Cam3512

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2015, 01:39:34 PM »
I don't want Guzzi to become more popular.  I like the fact that it's an obscure brand and you rarely see one on the road.  If I wanted to be a sheep, I'd buy a batwing faired Harley and wear their underwear.
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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2015, 01:42:30 PM »
I don't want Guzzi to become more popular.  I like the fact that it's an obscure brand and you rarely see one on the road.  If I wanted to be a sheep, I'd buy a batwing faired Harley and wear their underwear.

 Batwing underwear ?

  Dusty

Offline professor

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2015, 01:43:58 PM »
Piaggio holds 21% of the European market.  No company that does that is incompetent or foolish. What I think is that have failed to understand or read the US market sufficiently to create a deep sales response in the US. Cycle World choose the Griso over other cruisers. The US press has not been too harsh overall. I suspect that if things do not improve over time they will leave this market. Niche marketing works, but you still have to sell something. Why continue to spend money to have vehicles certified if sales do not support the effort. It would not be the first time.   As for what we want?  I understand what you are saying. People say build it and I'll buy it. But then they don't. Ducati hit it out of the park with the new Scrambler. So, there are ways to make money selling motorcycles. BMW and KTM both had big spurts of sales. Some how they have read our market sufficiently.

Offline professor

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2015, 01:50:05 PM »
Being obscure is not an option in the modern market place. Cash rules. Another thing to consider is this MG is not made by non-union third world employees. The Italians get paid a decent wage and have benefits. Mandllo De Lario is not a sweat shop. That takes capital and sales. As for MG dealers who have failed....was it Piaggio and their bad practices? OR a poor business plan and under capitalization. My local dealer when I asked told me they are same as everyone else, they want to make money. So do I. I sell more than MG and we do fine.

Offline JeffOlson

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2015, 02:11:34 PM »
This discussion saddens me. I am very pleased to have discovered Moto Guzzi and to now own a Norge. When I have some extra money, I hope to also own a V7 or a V9. I hope Moto Guzzi and Piaggio press on in the U.S.

Moto Guzzi does indeed make nice products, and I am thrilled they are made in Italy and not in China, India, or Thailand. I simply did not know about them, and I have owned several motorcycles. By the way, I don't care too much about specifications when it comes to motorcycles. Appearance and fun are much more important to me.

Also, my wife and I each own a new Vespa. She got hers before we knew about Moto Guzzi, and I got mine after we learned about Moto Guzzi.
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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2015, 02:53:07 PM »
As for MG dealers who have failed....was it Piaggio and their bad practices? OR a poor business plan and under capitalization. My local dealer when I asked told me they are same as everyone else, they want to make money. So do I. I sell more than MG and we do fine.

I don't think many have failed so much as chosen to stop carrying new Guzzis.

Though I guess you could argue at least Speakers "failed" from the point that it was ALL they carried so they essentially closed the doors.

Of course, if you look at some of the dealers that have departed in the past few years, they include names that were consistently in the top 3 or top 5 of the MG dealers in the COUNTRY by sales.

So I'm thinking it wasn't the dealer's business plan so much as lack of support and unrealistic demands by Piaggio NA.
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Offline cruzziguzzi

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #80 on: December 16, 2015, 04:12:29 PM »
I don't think many have failed so much as chosen to stop carrying new Guzzis.

Though I guess you could argue at least Speakers "failed" from the point that it was ALL they carried so they essentially closed the doors.

Of course, if you look at some of the dealers that have departed in the past few years, they include names that were consistently in the top 3 or top 5 of the MG dealers in the COUNTRY by sales.

So I'm thinking it wasn't the dealer's business plan so much as lack of support and unrealistic demands by Piaggio NA.

I get that impression too. More of a hands thrown in the air; fuggit! than failure of businesses which otherwise carried Guzzis.

The motorcycle world's past is rife with tales of mismanagement and market misinterpretation/under appreciation. Piaggio is far from the first to underserve a market to their own detriment. Whole books have been written on the "if only" theme.


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Offline JoeW

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #81 on: December 16, 2015, 04:21:26 PM »
I'm jumping in late here but, this is the dyno sheet from that 2014 Racer I customized earlier this year..

I had a speed shop port and polish the heads, they improved air flow by 14%. It has the Guzzitech 2 into 1 exhaust, re-flashed ECU and K&N air filter. That's a long way off of 65 hp!
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Offline professor

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #82 on: December 16, 2015, 06:55:26 PM »
This discussion saddens me. I am very pleased to have discovered Moto Guzzi and to now own a Norge. When I have some extra money, I hope to also own a V7 or a V9. I hope Moto Guzzi and Piaggio press on in the U.S.

Moto Guzzi does indeed make nice products, and I am thrilled they are made in Italy and not in China, India, or Thailand. I simply did not know about them, and I have owned several motorcycles. By the way, I don't care too much about specifications when it comes to motorcycles. Appearance and fun are much more important to me.

Also, my wife and I each own a new Vespa. She got hers before we knew about Moto Guzzi, and I got mine after we learned about Moto Guzzi.

I too own a Vespa 300GTs. My beach bike. Excellent!! Would buy another in an instant. Don't take this forum too seriously. This is the view of the US MG owners and some outside the US. In Europe and in particular France, Germany and Italy MG has been reborn and doing a slow gradual growth. MG is selling most of it's production somewhere else other than the US. They will survive as an iconic brand and in their own unique niche. Maybe as players in the US, maybe not. But the tent has not folded for MG and most likely will not given Piaggio's cash input and the growth over the past year or so. Guzzi has seen lean times before.

American always want more power. Triumph, Norton, BSA and Royal Enfield back in the day all were caught up in appeasing the US market demands. Nothing has changed.  Japanese cruisers are huge in terms of engine capacity, and they sell well here but not so well elsewhere.   Honda won the touring market it with the huge Goldwing, so there is some merit to it. Every body who sells here is told build it bigger, faster with more power. All the while our speed limit is 70 mph. And if you think it is not, a local state trooper will convince you otherwise. We love "talk" about power. We are an interstate nation. I might cheap gas fuels this (pun intended). Royal Enfield, MG, MV Augusta, KTM and others have all found breaking into and sustaining a toe hold in the US market difficult. Total sales in the US is around 400,000 bikes.

MG has limited resources so they will move cautiously and slowly toward their goals. The V7 are A2 license or learner friendly bikes and limited in life span due to European emissions that get ever strict. Americans don't have those restraints, so want it to be more. Doubt MG will really act on that given the few US sales it would result in. Add the cost of import, parts, service and certify???
The 1400s while designed here sell better elsewhere.  So, don't despair it is business as usual. Americans complaining and the Europeans doing just as they please. As they should with any minor market.
MG has always marched to it's own drummer. The old single cylinder Falcons were way past their prime. They simply do it their way. And it works in Europe, not so well here.

Offline Travman

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #83 on: December 16, 2015, 07:02:39 PM »
Kick back and wait. In a year from now the current V7 range will be updated with the new smallblock 850cc engine.  The new Roamer and Bobber need their time to shine first.
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Offline professor

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #84 on: December 16, 2015, 07:27:32 PM »
I agree. Small blocks will do well for MG. Going to be great fun to watch. Better to ride.

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #85 on: December 17, 2015, 12:24:29 AM »
I'm jumping in late here but, this is the dyno sheet from that 2014 Racer I customized earlier this year..

I had a speed shop port and polish the heads, they improved air flow by 14%. It has the Guzzitech 2 into 1 exhaust, re-flashed ECU and K&N air filter. That's a long way off of 65 hp!

Oh God! A reality check! Stop it Joe! :evil:

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Offline frans belgium

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #86 on: December 17, 2015, 01:52:31 AM »
Not having customers is not the customers fault.
I'm a Master in applied economics with a special degree in marketing and this is hands down the most fundamental statement on marketing I ever read.  This should be pinned on every wall of any sales unit - or production unit for that matter - all over the world, the ceo's wall to start with.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 01:56:47 AM by frans belgium »
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Offline jas67

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #87 on: December 17, 2015, 05:22:36 AM »
I'm jumping in late here but, this is the dyno sheet from that 2014 Racer I customized earlier this year..

I had a speed shop port and polish the heads, they improved air flow by 14%. It has the Guzzitech 2 into 1 exhaust, re-flashed ECU and K&N air filter. That's a long way off of 65 hp!

Peak HP, or even the peak torque is not the news here, look at the increase in low end torque over a broad RPM band.   I'll bet that the real world increase in performance is way better than the peak numbers tells.

I'm anxious to see dyno sheets of the new 850 vs the 750.   I'll bet that even though the numbers aren't impressive that in real world riding it is is noticeably better.


EDIT:  I wasn't looking at the graphs correctly, please disregard my comment.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 12:32:27 PM by jas67 »
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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #88 on: December 17, 2015, 08:37:56 AM »
I'm jumping in late here but, this is the dyno sheet from that 2014 Racer I customized earlier this year..

I had a speed shop port and polish the heads, they improved air flow by 14%. It has the Guzzitech 2 into 1 exhaust, re-flashed ECU and K&N air filter. That's a long way off of 65 hp!

WTF is wrong with that chart? Am I not reading it correctly?

The upper Red line is the torque on the modified run, the lower Red line is the hp on the modified run?

The upper Blue line is the torque on the stock run, the lower Blue line is the hp on the stock run?

If that's true, WTF do the blue lines not start until 3k rpm, it's like the dyno wasn't recording till then. There's no way that it didn't make any power until then, so we're missing 20% of the comparative data, in a not insignificant portion of the rpm range for pulling away from a stop and average riding.

Now when you look at the rpm range that I spend most of the time in 3-4k or even 3-5k I see almost no difference.

So no, I'm not ready to say based on those charts that the real world performance increase is "way better than peak numbers tell."

That said, I'm equally not going to call this a reality check unless someone actually thinks there's someone out there who is so dense that they believe that a port n' polish, exhaust, air cleaner and reflash was supposed to do more to a small block.

But even so, haven't we already seen a smallblock or two that HAVE been modified (piston kit and/or 4V heads/cams) that is pushing the 60 hp mark (or well on its way)?

Nonetheless, I think the change in piston/heads to the V9 is telling, and no way there is going to be a 750cc, 2V, EU emissions compliant small block running around making 60 or 65 hp. If there is a test mule making it, then there's more to the story (and that more probably AT LEAST includes the change in piston/heads to the V9, and that's just the tip of the iceberg).

« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 10:10:21 AM by Kev m »
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Offline pyoungbl

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Re: 65 HP V7
« Reply #89 on: December 17, 2015, 09:51:23 AM »
Looking at this chart I'm struck by how much the A/F varies across the rpm range.  I do not know how the tuner came up with his combo of mods to work best on this machine but it's pretty clear that the final package produces higher peak numbers.  The down side is 17:1 AF at 2200 and 16:1 in the 5000 ~ 5800 rpm range.  I don't think the bike will be my cup of tea when it's running so lean at highway speeds.  Modern bikes tend to tread a pretty thin line between emissions and practical use.  In many cases the old hot rod tuning standards actually make the bike run worse.  For example, installing a K&N filter along with aftermarket cans may lighten the wallet and sound louder but actually make the machine run worse.

FWIW, I got similar (OK, slightly less) hp/torque numbers with just a re-flash...no other mods, and tamed the A/F numbers so the bike 'feels' better across the rpm range.

Peter Y.
Growing old ain't for sissies.

'13 V7 Special (red/white)

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