Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: thechief86 on February 11, 2020, 07:40:59 AM
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I know this isn't the same as my 62 Volkswagen barn find that had been sitting for 30 years, but I am certainly experiencing issues that either were the reason it was stored in the first place, or are a direct result of being stored for several years.
This bike was bought new, ridden 373 miles, and then stored in a barn until february 8th. It is a beautiful bike, and luckily looks to have been kept dry, and has no evidence of rodent nesting or damage.
I got it at a really good price, hoping to get it going for my wife to ride, as she has been off bikes for a few years, and has expressed an interest in getting back into riding with me.
The problem I'm having, is that although the bike will start and run, it is only running on the left cylinder, and dripping gas from the exhaust (right side, and crossover pipe).
I've replaced the spark plug leads, boots, and plugs, as well as the battery and the injectors, and have performed a valve adjustment, with no improvement.
I attempted to test compression, but the gauge I have doesn't seem to be working at all, on either cylinder, so I'll buy another today and try again tonight.
I've checked for intake/exhaust blockages as well, and didn't find any.
I've checked for spark several times, and with the plug removed and grounded to the head, I get a nice, strong, white spark on both sides.
I've tried swapping injectors from side to side, and tried two different new ones on the non-firing cylinder. The pipe never even gets warm.
What do you guys think? I'd really love to get this bike sorted, and am not afraid to rebuild the top end if I have too, but I've resurrected many engines from longer hibernations than this, and with many, many more miles, without this type of issue. Even seized engines haven't had this problem once unseized.
I'll post photos in a little while, didn't realize I wouldn't be able to do it from my work computer.
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Swap the coils around and see if the trouble follows?
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Swap the coils around and see if the trouble follows?
I tried this last night, but the pigtails for the coils weren't long enough to swap without removing the coils, and I ran out of time.
(https://i.ibb.co/R04mB6C/20200209-132116.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R04mB6C)
(https://i.ibb.co/jySj01B/20200209-132105.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jySj01B)
(https://i.ibb.co/d5gGL3X/image2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d5gGL3X)
(https://i.ibb.co/VV4ftt8/image3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VV4ftt8)
(https://i.ibb.co/J21v6MM/image4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J21v6MM)
(https://i.ibb.co/cFwwQGp/image1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cFwwQGp)
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Does anybody know if the 2011 V7 has a fuel pressure regulator? If so, does anybody know where it is located?
I'm thinking the problem might be excessive fuel, judging by the raw fuel dripping from the exhaust.
I tried the local dealer, and after an hour, he called me back saying that I'd have to replace the entire fuel pump sending unit for $600.
I'd rather find another way to fix this.
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Are you trying the compression at full throttle, it will be low otherwise.
Yes it will have a pressure regulator probably in the tank.When you first turn the key on do you hear the pump priming in there?
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I'll have to try again tonight with a different gauge. The one I have is not working under any circumstance.
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Does anybody know if the 2011 V7 has a fuel pressure regulator? If so, does anybody know where it is located?
I'm thinking the problem might be excessive fuel, judging by the raw fuel dripping from the exhaust.
I tried the local dealer, and after an hour, he called me back saying that I'd have to replace the entire fuel pump sending unit for $600.
I'd rather find another way to fix this.
I was starting to wonder about the fuel pressure (following over at ADV rider).
Unfortunately the dealer sounds correct (though you can check using the parts lookup at Harpers or AF1), but it's very typical that the pressure regulator is part of the pump assembly and not available "separately" for service. That's not to say you might not be able to figure out a way to replace it, but it might not be plug-n-play.
But you're right a stuck regulator might allow excessive fuel pressure and drown the plugs with too much spray when the injectors are pulsed despite having spark.
That said, I don't know why it would run on one cylinder and not drown both then.
Still a fuel pressure check might be worth while, you'll know instantly if it's sky high.
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Still a fuel pressure check might be worth while, you'll know instantly if it's sky high.
What would it be Kevin 40-45 psi with an injector you would have to well go over 100 psi to make the flow double
I would start by measuring the resistance from plug cap to chassis in case you have a break somewhere, run it without the covers over the leads, swap plugs from side to side.
You might possibly have a bad connection in the plug primary as well, I assume the injector lead is ok because you are dripping fuel.
Perhaps run each injector into a glass bottle to see if its stuck open or the output is shorted.
It should be possible to put a small lamp where the injector is and see the pulses, maybe a 12V LED, same for the coils.
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I found a regulator that looks real similar to what I've seen attached to the top of the fuel sending units that would go on my bike.
It looks to just be held in with the same type of o-ring as the injectors, so I could remove the sending unit and give it a shot.
It looks like there are several companies offering just a pump that will work, while the the dealer only offers the entire sending unit.
I'll try properly swapping coils tonight, as well as ordering the regulator that looks like it may work.
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I believe its a common fuel line to both cylinders, one side works why shouldnt the other?
Can you tie a pressure gauge in there somewhere, perhaps at an injector. Do it outside for safety.
When you say its dripping fuel do you think this is more than would normally be burnt, like an injector stuck open or ECU output holding the injector on?
With the key On but not turning over the coils and injectors should stay perfectly cool (not like points ignition), leave the key on for a few minutes and see if there's any heat.
I think its electrical but I'm a sparkie.
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I am wondering if you have a valve that is hanging up. You say you checked valve clearances so they must be moving but may one of the valves be hanging up when the engine starts to run? Only a thought but as you say the bike has been sitting for a long time. You also say you are getting good spark so switching coils probably won't make any difference.
kk
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I did verify that the valves are moving, and even achieved lash at both valve on each side, so I'm pretty confident that they are closing all the way.
I do hear the fuel pump prime anytime in turn the key to the run position from off.
I did exchange my faulty compression gauge for a new one, so I'll know for sure what my compression numbers are tonight, at least cold..
I just ordered a few pressure regulator off ebay, one that claims to fit a variety of moto guzzi and ducati applications, so maybe that one will at least fit.
My plan tonight is to swap the coils properly, which I can leave where they are if there is no change, then I'll try to get a better reading for compression. I also plan to remove the fuel pressure regulator from the sending unit, and bang it on the workbench a bit, in an effort to free something up if something is sticking. I do have an inline pressure gauge somewhere that I could plumb in...
I also plan to try Roy's idea of letting the bike sit for a minute or two with the key on to see if there is obvious heat coming from a coil or injector.
Here's hoping I accidentally figure it out tonight, but if not, a new regulator is on the way, and it may or may not solve the issue.
As for working or not on one side or the other, the left side plug was quite black and fouled looking as well, but may have somehow gotten just enough less fuel to actually be able to ignite.
I hope like hell the fuel-washed right cylinder isn't damaged to the point of needing honing and new rings after this issue, but I doubt it is too messed up.
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Sorry I missed the part where you have strong spark on both sides, I wouldn't bother swapping the coils then.
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What would it be Kevin 40-45 psi with an injector you would have to well go over 100 psi to make the flow double
I would start by measuring the resistance from plug cap to chassis in case you have a break somewhere, run it without the covers over the leads, swap plugs from side to side.
You might possibly have a bad connection in the plug primary as well, I assume the injector lead is ok because you are dripping fuel.
Perhaps run each injector into a glass bottle to see if its stuck open or the output is shorted.
It should be possible to put a small lamp where the injector is and see the pulses, maybe a 12V LED, same for the coils.
I'd have to look it up, but could be 30-40 psi - so 80 psi would be "double" if that's what you're asking. Not sure what the break point would be to was out combustion.
IIRC he's swapped out injectors, plugs, and now taken a look at or remounted the caps, he's tested for spark and appears to have it on both sides. I don't know how you would figure out timing and duration of injector pulses from a lamp. But again, they've been swapped and really should be considered known good at this point.
Yeah, maybe a secondary circuit resistance test on the coils might be good, if the specs are available or if someone is willing to check another known good one and come up with a spec.
I found a regulator that looks real similar to what I've seen attached to the top of the fuel sending units that would go on my bike.
It looks to just be held in with the same type of o-ring as the injectors, so I could remove the sending unit and give it a shot.
It looks like there are several companies offering just a pump that will work, while the the dealer only offers the entire sending unit.
I'll try properly swapping coils tonight, as well as ordering the regulator that looks like it may work.
Sure, could work out. I think I wouldn't bother without first checking fuel pressure with an inline gauge of some sort. And then I'd alsl double-check the specs for something that takes the regulator you found to make sure it's the same operation range (or as close as possible) but it likely could work.
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Sure, could work out. I think I wouldn't bother without first checking fuel pressure with an inline gauge of some sort. And then I'd also double-check the specs for something that takes the regulator you found to make sure it's the same operation range (or as close as possible) but it likely could work.
It is a 3 bar regulator, which is within the range discussed, at a possible 80 psi.
It is advertised as working for the v7, as well as the Breva 750 and some similar cc Ducatis. I figured for way cheaper than an entire sending unit, it was worth a shot.
If the regulator is the issue, I'm half confident that banging the old one on the workbench a couple of times would probably free it up and restore function.
At this point, I don't think I want to hook up the inline pressure gauge just yet, as I'd have to cut the nylon fuel hose and splice it in, leaving a potential failure point, and thus a fire hazard if i spliced it back together with a barb, so new fuel line would be necessary for peace of mind.
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https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=92473.0
Replies #3 and #4 on this thread point to what I'm hoping the issue is.
Since this bike was indeed stored for several years with a more or less empty tank, I may be on the right track?
What do you guys think?
@Kev m, one of the replies is from you. Is this still something you would consider?
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When I was mucking around with fuel tanks, it was either on the V7C or a mate's Breva 750, I found the easiest & non technical way to check the fuel pump operation was to swap the tank around with a known working one. In my case the known one worked fine, so after that I knew where the problem was. See if you can't get someone with a V7 or Breva to visit, and try that out. I've some spares on the shelf, but I'm not what you'd call close by.
In the Breva's case, the overflow pipe had blocked, water mixed with the fuel & parts of the pump had rusted, the regulator particularly was shot. I happened to have a spare V7C pump on the shelf & that solved that one. On the V7C, I think it was something I'd done wrong in hooking up the fuel pump assembly in the then new metal tank.
One of the first things I did when I got hold of the (new to me) seized V7C, was to take the fuel pump out of the tank & eyeball it. It looked pristine, so I put it back. I should take the opportunity to test it on one of the others before declaring it sound.
If you can determine that your tank and pump function properly, there's one less worry. Why it's doing what it's doing, I don't really have a clue. I'd be trying to swap around parts from known working ones in an attempt to isolate the problem, but then I've access to those bits, so that route is convenient.
Other idle thoughts:- check that the fast idle lever & cable is not stuck - check that the sacred screw hasn't been fiddled with (there still should be the blobs of yellow paint on it) - check that the throttle cables are sound & operate the throttle bodies smoothly (at least as much as you can) - check that the TPS is working smoothly (it's easy to take off, clean & smear a little lube on the workings - I've tested mine with Guzzdiag, but I've read they can be tested with a volt meter) - although unlikely to be factor here, check that the air filter is clean & the airbox unobstructed (v7's appear to be sensitive here) - check that the breather tube from the rocker cover spigot is not blocked.
Best of luck. Interested to hear what happens.
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When I was mucking around with fuel tanks, it was either on the V7C or a mate's Breva 750, I found the easiest & non technical way to check the fuel pump operation was to swap the tank around with a known working one. In my case the known one worked fine, so after that I knew where the problem was. See if you can't get someone with a V7 or Breva to visit, and try that out. I've some spares on the shelf, but I'm not what you'd call close by.
In the Breva's case, the overflow pipe had blocked, water mixed with the fuel & parts of the pump had rusted, the regulator particularly was shot. I happened to have a spare V7C pump on the shelf & that solved that one. On the V7C, I think it was something I'd done wrong in hooking up the fuel pump assembly in the then new metal tank.
One of the first things I did when I got hold of the (new to me) seized V7C, was to take the fuel pump out of the tank & eyeball it. It looks pristine, so I put it back. I should take the opportunity to test it on one of the other before declaring it sound.
If you can determine that your tank and pump function properly, there's one less worry. Why it's doing what it's doing, I don't really have a clue. I'd be trying to swap around parts from known working ones in an attempt to isolate the problem, but then I've access to those bits, so that route is convenient.
Best of luck. Interested to hear what happens.
That would certainly take a lot of guesswork out of this process, however, I literally don't know of another person with a v7 anywhere near me. When I had my breva, it was the same story. I have a couple of 80's guzzis in my garage, but as for the fuel injected stuff, they're pretty rare around here.
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Perhaps I missed this but did you verify that when you checked or swapped out the injectors that both were misting? A 750 Breva had similar issue and one of the lnjector connectors/ caps had a loose connection in the plug. Took a long time to find this, but a very simple fix when found.
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That would certainly take a lot of guesswork out of this process, however, I literally don't know of another person with a v7 anywhere near me. When I had my breva, it was the same story. I have a couple of 80's guzzis in my garage, but as for the fuel injected stuff, they're pretty rare around here.
I hear you. You might have a lot more people & a lot more bikes over there, but you're scattered all over the shop. Whereas we are mostly clustered around the eastern seaboard. Put a call out on some of the other sites that V7's frequent to see if anyone is close - Moto-Guzzi-750@groups.io (the successor to the yahoo group), the guzzitech forum, the V7 section on ADVrider. Not what I'd call an immediate solution.
BTW I've modified my previous post to include a few "idle thoughts".
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https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=92473.0
Replies #3 and #4 on this thread point to what I'm hoping the issue is.
Since this bike was indeed stored for several years with a more or less empty tank, I may be on the right track?
What do you guys think?
@Kev m, one of the replies is from you. Is this still something you would consider?
I don't see where we ever heard the final report on that thread, but I feel like that one was too intermittent to have been the pressure regulator. You've got a better argument, but I'm still not convinced for sure.
I do think you're generally going about it the right way though.
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I think you will have two throttle bodies on an early V7.
Are they synced close enough, you should be able to eyeball the linkages.
Suppose you were to pull off bothe injectors and put each one in a bottle then crank it over for a while, one would expect them both to put out the same amount of fuel.
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Great news! With a properly working compression tester, I verified that I have 130 psi per cylinder, even cold, and even after all the gas-washing of the cylinders!
I have taken the gas tank off for better access to the coils and airbox, so once I hooked the coils back up and put the plugs back in, I decided to see if it would start with Ether starting fluid.
Woohoo! It runs great!
So that rules out compression, valve adjustment, spark, and air!
So then I found a thread discussing the fuel pressure regulator, and decided to order a new one to try. I think I'm going down the right path, now.
So now, fuel is definitely the culprit, and the problem is that there is too much of it. The fact that one cylinder will ignite still kind of throws me off, but at least I know where I'm going.
The fuel pressure regulator should fit my bike, according to the ebay seller, who I emailed and got a reply saying he used one on his v7, so if it works, I might be close to riding once it gets here.
If it doesn't run right with the new regulator, I'll keep chasing the gremlins, but switch to sensors such as the TPS and O2 sensors.
Thanks for brainstorming with me, folks. We will get there!
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The ECU should add the same fuel for both cylinders as there is only one Throttle Position Sensor.
But the throttle bodies control how much air gets in, suppose its that far out of balance one cylinder is too rich?
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I'd be very surprised if they're so out of balance that one cylinder won't even run.
Anyway, I just tried the injector in a bottle trick, out of curiosity. They are both equally dumping a buttload of fuel. Don't know how one cylinder ignites but the other doesn't, but that's what is happening.
Both plugs are getting extremely wet, the one that actually ignites is black and sooty.
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The amount of fuel is controlled by the throttle opening, Engine revs and a couple of other parameters.
Is it possible that the throttle opening is miss-reported due to a faulty or out of whack TPS in other words the TPS is reporting a wide throttle and adding too much fuel to both cylinders?
I think you need Guzzidiag to read the TPS
I think you are getting close
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Yeah there are a lot of possibilities. But the damn thing ran when it was parked years ago with only 600ish miles on it right?
So what's more probable, that the tps position changed just sitting there or that the regulator spring corroded and doesn't open all the way any more causing pressure to go to high?
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Yeah there are a lot of possibilities. But the damn thing ran when it was parked years ago with only 600ish miles on it right?
Do you think so or perhaps it wasn't running that's why it got put away
So what's more probable, that the tps position changed just sitting there or that the regulator spring corroded and doesn't open all the way any more causing pressure to go to high?
Do you think so or perhaps it wasn't running that's why it got put away.
Suppose the TPS slipped somehow messing up the mixture, the owner got frustrated with lack on dealership so it was put away.
Who knows for sure what happened. thechief86 is going to want to check stuff with Guzzidiag at some time, might as well be sooner than later.
I'm going to put my money on the TPS, its electrical lol, I also know regulators with my Instrument technicians hat on if the spring were to rust through the pressure would drop, could be plugged though. You can sort of gauge the pressure by the pump current, they get really noisy also, a pressure gauge would prove it for sure.
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The bike was put away at 373 miles, but came with a 3 year, unlimited mileage warranty. If it messed up in those first 3 years, I believe the PO would have mentioned it. He sold it cheap enough to be honest about what happened..
He finished off the first tank of gas about the same time he found out his wife was pregnant, and quit riding. (Kid was the right age to coincide with this story)
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Do you think so or perhaps it wasn't running that's why it got put away.
Suppose the TPS slipped somehow messing up the mixture, the owner got frustrated with lack on dealership so it was put away.
Who knows for sure what happened. thechief86 is going to want to check stuff with Guzzidiag at some time, might as well be sooner than later.
I'm going to put my money on the TPS, its electrical lol, I also know regulators with my Instrument technicians hat on if the spring were to rust through the pressure would drop, could be plugged though. You can sort of gauge the pressure by the pump current, they get really noisy also, a pressure gauge would prove it for sure.
Anything's possible.... And I hear ya. You make a legitimate argument. Certainly wouldn't hurt to check it. That would explain why it seemed to run better at higher rpm, the throttle opening doing better match the already maxed out tps signal at a certain point.
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I assume the TPS is on top of the injector so the following shouldn't be the issue.
on my 98 EV the TPS was on the bottom. the bike sat on the dealers floor for over a year and gas dripped down through the TPS i even commented about it when I bought it. by 12000 miles it was acting up like what you describe and a new tps fixed it. taking yours off and flushing it out with contact cleaner might solve your problem. on the EV's it was easy to reset them with a digital meter I don't know about the V7.
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Pointing in the right direction, perhaps. On the 2TB V7's the TPS is on top of the RHS throttle body. Should a new one be needed, (Magneti Marelli PF1C00), they are cheaper from HD - Part # 27629-01A. Also found on some Fiats, Lancias, Alfas, Renaults & Dacias. See the cross reference list in the Files section of the Moto-Guzzi-750@groups.io.
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That's great, Malik!
I love knowing parts compatibility with different applications!
That's the kind of thing that will help keep these things going when they are old!
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Well, here is an interesting update...
Today I pulled the sending unit from the tank on this bike, and found a Mahle steel filter already installed, so that's nice :D
So I kept going and removed the Fuel pressure regulator, and inspected it closely.
It had a teensy bit of corrosion inside, the only corrosion I've found throughout the entire motorcycle at this point. I decided to see if I could free it up, first by trying to push the plunger against the spring with a small punch, and was not strong enough.
So, knowing that I've already ordered a replacement, I put it in my vise and tried to use the vise and a small bolt to squeeze the spring.
No dice! That sucker is seized!
I tried 150psi of air pressure against the inlet with a short length of hose clamped on, and couldn't even get it to bypass then.
So, unless my understanding of how this valve works is completely off base (and it probably isn't, as I am a mechanical engineer by trade), I think I may have just verified my suspicion of this regulator.
The new one will arrive in a week. Wish it would get here sooner! I feel like I'm very close....
I also checked the TPS with my fancy multimeter, and it seems to be working just fine.
It is just a potentiometer, after all :)
I'll let you guys know what I find once I get my hands on the new regulator!
Thanks so much for your help up to this point! I believe I'll have this bike right pretty soon.
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While you're waiting for that, if you haven't done so already, it might be an idea to grease the drive shaft splines (see the recent thread on the Nevada, it's the same) and change the fork oil - new oil makes a big difference, especially on our marginal suspension, and the chances are that yours may even have come from the factory in 2011. These jobs will make the waiting just fly by. Learning to get the rear wheel back on smoothly is an education in itself.
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:lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed:
While you're waiting for that, if you haven't done so already, it might be an idea to grease the drive shaft splines (see the recent thread on the Nevada, it's the same) and change the fork oil - new oil makes a big difference, especially on our marginal suspension, and the chances are that yours may even have come from the factory in 2011. These jobs will make the waiting just fly by. Learning to get the rear wheel back on smoothly is an education in itself.
This would definitely be time well spent. I have some other things to button up on my KLR 650 before a big weekend dual sport trip in a couple of weeks, but I may dive into this stuff once I'm satisfied that I can rely on that bike for the 2,000 or so miles we have planned.
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Because the Breva engine has run faultlessly since new in 2004 I have never needed to touch anything. Consequently, I have never needed to get in to the system or indeed try to understand the workings.
On a 2TB I assume that there only needed to be one regulator and it is basically a common rail system with the amount of fuel controlled by the electronic injectors. Correct?
If so, then my suspect would be that the electronic injector, for whatever reason, is stuck fully open. If fuel is running out of the pipe that is one helluva lot of fuel.
Can a multi meter be put in the circuit to see if the injector is receiving a pulse, or a steady voltage that is keeping the injector fully open all the time?
My diagnosis would be a stuck injector.
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Because the Breva engine has run faultlessly since new in 2004 I have never needed to touch anything. Consequently, I have never needed to get in to the system or indeed try to understand the workings.
On a 2TB I assume that there only needed to be one regulator and it is basically a common rail system with the amount of fuel controlled by the electronic injectors. Correct?
If so, then my suspect would be that the electronic injector, for whatever reason, is stuck fully open. If fuel is running out of the pipe that is one helluva lot of fuel.
Can a multi meter be put in the circuit to see if the injector is receiving a pulse, or a steady voltage that is keeping the injector fully open all the time?
My diagnosis would be a stuck injector.
I've tried 3 different injectors on that cylinder with similar results.
Tonight I got home and found the regulator I ordered in the mailbox. So I put it in, and the bike is doing the exact same thing.
I need to dig out my fuel pressure gauge and plumb it in, I guess, to be sure that is working right.
If so, I'll order a TPS and try it.
From there, I'm out of ideas.
Last resort will be to put it back together like I never messed with it, and take it to the dealer.
From there the old adage will ring true, that the cheapest bikes are always the most expensive.
Dammit. :violent1:
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I just ordered the cables for Guzzidiag.
Hopefully my ancient laptop will boot up after sitting idle for a decade and can run the software. I haven't needed a computer at home since college, been Internet-ing on my phone and at work this whole time.
I'm beginning to get discouraged here.
I've been able to revive pretty much every machine I've ever messed with to a point of reliability, and yet, can't figure out this relatively new motorcycle, even with the help of other Guzzi folks online.
I'm at the point that I'm losing sleep over it now.
I'll order a TPS as well. Would the O2 sensor be a likely failure point as well? I hate just throwing parts at stuff, but at least on this bike, there aren't many parts in the first place, right?
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Because the Breva engine has run faultlessly since new in 2004 I have never needed to touch anything. Consequently, I have never needed to get in to the system or indeed try to understand the workings.
On a 2TB I assume that there only needed to be one regulator and it is basically a common rail system with the amount of fuel controlled by the electronic injectors. Correct?
If so, then my suspect would be that the electronic injector, for whatever reason, is stuck fully open. If fuel is running out of the pipe that is one helluva lot of fuel.
Can a multi meter be put in the circuit to see if the injector is receiving a pulse, or a steady voltage that is keeping the injector fully open all the time?
My diagnosis would be a stuck injector.
He ran both injectors into a glass bottle, I assume he compared the results
I had the thought that one ECU output could be shorted out in which case one side would be hugely out of whack
How about one of those series spark checkers to ensure the spark is actually getting across the plug?
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He ran both injectors into a glass bottle, I assume he compared the results
I had the thought that one ECU output could be shorted out in which case one side would be hugely out of whack
How about one of those series spark checkers to ensure the spark is actually getting across the plug?
Yeah, I have one of those somewhere.
But I really think fuel is the problem. It is just dripping right out if the exhaust at every joint and spraying out of the right pipe when revved.
Funny enough, the check engine light went out and the thing seemed to run a little smoother, but the damn pipe on that side still never even gets warm.
I've ordered the Guzzidiag stuff, and a TPS, but I'm losing faith that I'll figure it out. Should I try ordering another used, but known good ecu?
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So I wonder if that's why it only had 373 miles? Could you track down the dealership that sold it new and try to get some info?
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Just curious , what does the spark plug on the offending side look like ? Is it fouled or just wet ?
Dusty
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Just curious , what does the spark plug on the offending side look like ? Is it fouled or just wet ?
Dusty
Brand new plugs at this point, the left side is wet and blackened.
The non running right side is clean as a whistles and shiny, and dripping wet after trying to run.
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Brand new plugs at this point, the left side is wet and blackened.
The non running right side is clean as a whistles and shiny, and dripping wet after trying to run.
So the offending side is fouled ?
Is the header pipe on the dead side discolored ?
Dusty
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So the offending side is fouled ?
Is the header pipe on the dead side discolored ?
Dusty
The pipes are evenly heat-colored, which makes me believe it must have run right for most of its short life. I called the dealership where he bought it, but it is so far out of warranty that they want $130 to even look at it, with no guarantee that they can even figure out the problem.
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Do the early V7 models have the same awful stock plug caps as the later models ? I know you replaced these , but the caps are junk .
Dusty
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Do the early V7 models have the same awful stock plug caps as the later models ? I know you replaced these , but the caps are junk .
Dusty
No the older ones have simple boots that screw into the wire and clip onto the plug, more or less just a conventional 90° spark plug boot like you'd see on the distributor end of an aircooled Volkswagen.
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Have you checked the exhaust system for a mouse's nest ?
Dusty
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Have you checked the exhaust system for a mouse's nest ?
Dusty
I checked the intake, didn't expect it in the exhaust...
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I worked for several months for a friend at an auto repair shop. They had a VW bug come in with a new exhaust system that wasn't running well. It would idle, but not rev up. The car was there for weeks, maybe a month and driving us crazy. Finally we swapped out the muffler and that did it. The car had gone through a deep puddle that evidently knocked a baffle loose. But it wasn't rattling.
When it's running, check to see there's pressure at the muffler outlet. I wouldn't expect a mouse nest to keep it from running - it would blow out after a bit. I'm guessing it's electrical. Just because you see a good spark with plug removed doesn't necessarily mean it sparks under pressure. Don't assume that! It doesn't seem logical compression pressure would make it more difficult to jump a spark, but that is the case. If there's a way to swap components side to side perhaps you could get the problem to move.
Was the bike parked due to this problem? Or is it the result of sitting so long?
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I checked the intake, didn't expect it in the exhaust...
I would most certainly check .
Dusty
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I've swapped the coils and leads from side to side with no change. I really don't think this is a spark problem.
If it was, I promise, I would have been able to achieve some sort of change by now through the process of replacing parts and swapping them side to side, and even running the bike on Ether.
Nothing has given different results other than running on ether, which did actually work fine.
I am confident that spark can be ruled out. I believe I have an electrical problem, but I do not believe it is related to spark in any way. If I'm not getting spark, it is because the plug is being drowned in fuel.
When I rev the bike, raw fuel SPRAYS from the exhaust on both sides. The right pipe is not hot, while the left pipe is expectedly scorching hot.
There are no obstructions in the intake or exhaust, verified by removing the pipes and blowing air through them, as well as feeling the exhaust exiting strongly from both sides, although spraying my hand with gas on both sides.
PO swears the bike ran great within the last month or so, and he didn't realize it didn't until I was on my way to pick it up, so he lowered the price to get it sold anyway.
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Disclaimer: I haven't worked on a Guzzi with FI, but I have worked on many other FI systems. On the systems I saw, the injector has constant voltage through the ignition switch on one terminal and the ECM grounds the other terminal to trigger the injector.
Try this:
Take the injectors out of the manifold, leaving them connected to the fuel hoses. Put them in a position where they can safely spray into a container. Turn the ignition on (to make the pump run), but don't try to start the engine. Look for one of the injectors to be continuously spraying and the other one not. If it is, you have a stuck injector. Clean it or replace it.
If not, turn the switch off and reconnect the electrical connectors to the injectors. Turn the switch on as before. If one of the injector sprays continuously now, then look for a grounded wire between the ECM and the injector that is spraying.
Over the years I have seen several vehicles where one or more cylinders didn't run or fouled plugs because of rodent damage to the wiring harness, usually when the vehicle was parked for an extended length of time. In this case, the harness could have been damaged before the original owner bought the bike, but it didn't completely short out until shortly (no pun intended) before the bike was parked.
YMMV.
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First, don't give up! I think you'll sort it out easier/faster than the dealership (unless it is a great old school Guzzi dealership where they have mechanics that actually know something).
I would pull off both silencers (aka mufflers or slip ons) and set them up to drain. The cats are in there, and getting all that raw gas in there is not good.
Have you re-done your injector in the bottle tests? Would be interesting to see if right and left side are getting the same spray now.
Typing out loud here ... a bunch of rambling as I think about this ... :grin:
So the bike could be getting too much fuel and so a normal ignition system just can not burn it all. So why would a fuel system dump too much fuel? Seems your new regulator and a fuel pressure test should sort the supply side out. So injectors will be getting fuel at the right pressure ready for them to use. Then the ECU tells the injectors when and how long to spray fuel. A dirty/clogged injector might have a bad spray pattern, but that should not lead to mass quantities of fuel.
From a bike just sitting around unused, it doesn't seem the ECU, mapping, or TPS, or balance would get messed up. It does seem like the injectors might get clogged.
When you did the ether test, are you 100% positive both sides were firing/running properly then?
The other thing that doesn't make sense ... if both sides are getting way too much fuel, why does one side fire and try to run and the other side seems to do nothing? That does sound like an ignition or timing problem. Neither of which should just fail or go bad from sitting around.
The other possibility, one side is getting too much fuel, but is firing and trying to run ... the other side is getting WAY too much fuel and can't do anything with it ... so what issue could cause one side to get significantly more fuel than the other?
And, if you start to consider the seller is not being truthful ... bike started running like crap, he had all sort of issues, he parked it and never got it taken care of, then years later he sold it to you ... how would that change the troubleshooting?
Then I would start thinking bad ECU? Heck, maybe the guy tried loading a "better" map into the ECU and screwed it up? Maybe timing is messed up? TDC sensor messed up?
Maybe it was running a little bad and he tried to make it better by trying a throttle balance adjustment and he messed that all up?
Maybe you've already done this ... but ... if you put in 2 new plugs, repeat the ehter test, check that both cylinders are running, both get equally warm, pull both plugs and see if they look the same ... then it seems that really does mean timing is ok, spark is ok, so 100% of fault is from the injectors and how they are operating.
And what could that be?
Bad injectors
ECU instructing injectors to spray way too much fuel (but why?)
Too much fuel pressure on input side of injectors
What would a poorly set up throttle balance do? (I'm not sure with this 2 TB model) Seems that could send fuel too much/too little at wrong times?
Ok, that's my rambling thoughts. :grin:
Good luck, don't give up!
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Hummm, came across this thread, sounds similar: https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/help-with-new-v7-special-dies-when-let-to-idle.15776/
So maybe the stock mapping is that crappy?
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Hummm, came across this thread, sounds similar: https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/help-with-new-v7-special-dies-when-let-to-idle.15776/
So maybe the stock mapping is that crappy?
Different issue , and I would bet good money this isn't a mapping problem , or something that can be solved with a power commander .
Dusty
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Yeah, The stock map is pretty lean, not rich.
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When I had some weird idle problems (on the V7C), idle so low that it would stall, or running at 1500rpm & spiking to 2,000 & fouling the plugs with carbon, I did do a whole lot of things to try to fix it, but annoyingly, nothing definitive. But it is working great now. These included - changing the plug caps (LB05F - they are common & cheap), cutting the corroded end off one of the HT leads, replacing the oiled air filter with the stock paper one, adjusting the throttle cables evenly, replacing the oil pressure sensor (which tested intermittent before testing dead), (do note that at each change you make, you should re-set the TPS & auto learning by removing the -Ve battery terminal for some minutes), then loaded Beetle's map for the 15RC - it's free/no charge because he says there's nothing much to do - which turns off the lambda sensor (so when it later broke a wire, I removed it, replacing it with a sumo plug - M18x1.5 - with no noticeable effects), and finally identifying a flat spot in the TPS & replacing that too. It's been running swimmingly ever since. Once you've got Guzzidiag up and running, you can use that to reset the TPS & the self learning, as well as check to see if the ECU manages to pick up any errors. In the middle of all that, there were other things raising their ugly heads, notably an ignition switch with melted terminals inside (for those that have to replace the ignition, do note that the lock set is only maginally more expensive than the switch alone, and you end up with only one key to manage). I haven't had any problems with the injectors to date (touch wood), but this bike has only done 220,000km, although the fuel lines (and the pump) were changed along with the metal 21L tank.
The stock map for the 15RC is good (bloody fantastic, compared to the 1TB's MUIG3) and self learns changes (such as new mufflers & headers) a treat.
These bikes do respond well to a throttle body balance, but the bike needs to be running reasonably before you can even go there. The sacred screw hasn't been touched, has it? It still has its blobs of yellow paint on it? If molested, it's all up for grabs - I've only heard of one chap who can get close to the factory's micro setting.
I've the idea that the ECU sets the RH cylinder, and copies those to the LHS with an appropriate fudge factor. So if you get the RHS working properly, the LHS should follow.
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Is it possible something is making the computer see too lean of a mixture and the ECU is trying to riches it up to make it right?
If you disconnect the oxygen sensor, will that take that adjustment out and will the bike then run on a predetermined map?
Have you checked for a vacuum leak? Let's face it, normal stuff isn't working.
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threads getting long and I'm too lazy to reread but have you pulled and cleaned the cam position sensor. at that point you should check it with the multi meter. Sweede here had issues with them I know and found dirt cheap replacement ones.
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I have read this thread, seen all the suggestions and would have thought that at least one of them would solve the problem.
I confess I have no idea but will be very interested to see just what is causing the problem when it finally sees the light of day.
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The O2 sensor doesn't start working until it's up to temp after running for a bit. But even then it shouldn't make THAT big a difference in mapping. It's a corrective factor.
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threads getting long and I'm too lazy to reread but have you pulled and cleaned the cam position sensor. at that point you should check it with the multi meter. Sweede here had issues with them I know and found dirt cheap replacement ones.
Smithswede's problem was different . His initial problem was a bad plug cap that killed the ignition on one cylinder , then later he began having problems with cam sensors , but when they fail both cylinders die . Somehow the problem has magically fixed its self .
Dusty
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The O2 sensor doesn't start working until it's up to temp after running for a bit. But even then it shouldn't make THAT big a difference in mapping. It's a corrective factor.
If I remember correctly, Pete Roper said the magic figure was 60 degC. Mine flipped dead on when he put his magic machine on it.
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Yesterday I walked away from this thing for a while and went for a ride on my BMW, and ended up stopping into a real nice motorcycle shop that mostly messes with Harleys, but also happens to have an Italian guy there who is a Ducati and Moto Guzzi specialist. I'll be calling them on Monday to speak with this guy and see what ideas he has. His hourly rate is more that fair, so I may well just drop the bike off to him and say "fix it".
As I've been reminded, my time may be better spent on other things, lol.
I have a 3 year old son and 4 other motorcycles that run at my house, all begging for attention.
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A 3 year old and a son, too. Now there's a handful. You won't be allowed to do much tinkering there.
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Plan is to drop the bike off to an Italian bike specialist on Wednesday.
I will update once he figures out what is wrong.
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:popcorn:
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Copied and pasted to save time:
So my Italian bike guy confirmed everything I had tested, but found that the ECU is actually telling the right side injector to stay open, rather than me just suspecting it. Bottle trick was kind of messy, so I didn't do a great job of
letting it go long enough to see if the injector would shut back off.
Mike says that the left plug getting a lot of fuel was most likely because the engine was still cold during testing, as I couldn't let it run long enough to warm up for fear of gas-flooding the crankcase. He did confirm that the left side is pulsing correctly, while the right side is staying wide open.
I have sent an E-mail to Todd Eagan at GuzziTech to see if he can repair this ECU, or if I will just have to buy another.
In the meantime, does anyone have an 08-15 V7 or Nevada ECU they'd be willing to part with?
I'm pretty confident that another ecu would solve the issue at this point.
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If somehow the map got corrupted causing your problem. Maybe someone here can send you a stock map or an updated one that would make it run batter than a stock one and all you will have to do it load it. All you would need are the cables, Guzzidiag and the upload/download software, and a computer close enough to the bike for the cables to reach.
Just a thought,
Tom
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That's definitely worth a shot, and I have cables on the way.
I wonder if my old derelict laptop can support the software, but if not, I can always borrow a laptop from a friend.
I may order a known-good ECU from ebay, and map that instead. The bike is for my wife, so I will let her decide,
as she is also the one who worries about money in our household.
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Give this a quick read for the basics, a longer read if you want. Guzzidiag runs on win XP and up, maybe earlier versions?
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=96957.0
Tom
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Thanks, Tom.
I believe it will work with my old laptop, which I believe is running Windows Vista? I haven't booted it up in a number of years.
I've had computers at my disposal at work for the last several years, so I haven't had a need for one at home lately.
I ended up ordering a used ECU from Ebay, hopefully it will work.
I did also call the local Guzzi Dealer, however, and their news was that the ECU for this bike has been discontinued, and is no longer available new.
This is a little disturbing, Knowing that I'm probably not alone in hoping that these bikes last a long time like their predecessors.
I have a 1981 smallblock 500 in the garage with well over 200k miles (according to the owner).
I'd love to think that this v7 will still be doing the thing in another 30 years, but I'd be willing to bet I'll end up having to adapt the EFi from a similar displacement Ducati, or maybe a suzuki SV650,
or may even put carbs on, and even then I'll need to figure out spark management. At what point will it no longer be worth messing with?
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The V7C uses the 15RC ECU, as does the 750 Breva & injected Nevada's. There seems to be a reasonable supply around secondhand, though the price is variable. This ECU is pretty robust, and according to those who would know, well written. Beetle's map for these is free, by the way, as he reckons there wasn't much to do to improve it. Either get hold of Beetle's map, or one of the later factory versions.
FWIW, my V7C is moving towards your 200K mile target steadily, with a mere 218,000km - it's not on the clock, that stops working at 199,999.
And thanks for reminding me - before I take the 2011 wreck apart, I'd better store a copy of its map, too. Should you need a copy, it's only a cloud away.
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The 15RC is also used on the CalVin IIRR. I'm sure the map is different.
Tom
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Heyyyyy!
Replacement ECU came a day early!
I slapped that puppy on the bike, and she starts right up and runs great!
Now the only problem is that it wants to idle at 3k rpm, even after about 5 minutes warming up.
Anybody know the easy way to adjust the idle speed on a dual throttle body v7?
I'm sure I can figure it out, but would prefer to know right where to go, lest I get something else out of whack that I should have left alone.
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You may have an air leak between the throttle bodies and the heads.
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Adjusted the idle speed and rode to work!
Bike runs great! Thanks for your help, folks!
Bike has 402 miles now :D
(https://i.ibb.co/NLsHmhG/20200225-065616.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NLsHmhG)
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:thumb:
Dusty
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Congratulations, just goes to show that sticking with it and not giving up will get you there. Enjoy your bike, you earned it.
kk
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:thumb: glad it turned out fine and you have another great bike in your stable.
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Fan-bloody-tastic. Now to run it in. Keep freeway droning to a minimum in the early days, hunt up some tight twisties & hills, lots of gear changes & running up & down the rev range. Change fluids again in, say, another 500 miles - check the drain plug magnets, likely to be some swarf on all of them at first, gradually reducing each oil change. My 2TB had a distinct loosening at around 9,000 miles & another around 19,000.
You should end up getting 55-60 mpg, once you're used to the bike. If it seems consistently high, try a throttle body balance. Schedule one in anyway, somewhere in the next 20,000 miles. No real rush.
How old are your tyres? Just a thought.
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Great follow through! Congratulations bringing it back!
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Thanks folks!
Yeah, I figure I'll change the oils again soon, and do a few early changes, maybe 1000 miles apart for the first 5k or so.
The tires are the original ones from 2011, so they'll be getting replaced very soon, most likely with Avon AM26 Roadriders, as I've run them in the past and liked them.
My wife is waiting to take her MSF course again in April, and once she does, this will be her bike.
She hasn't ridden in about 4 years, so I can understand her caution getting back into it.
In the meantime, I'll enjoy getting the first couple thousand break-in miles on it.
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640 miles from Beth Page to Cedar Vale .
Dusty
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640 miles from Beth Page to Cedar Vale .
Dusty
I'll be in Kansas in July, on my way to Colorado. I'll be going out there for a week long Moto camping trip on my KLR.
I'll be hauling the big green pig in my pickup to Denver, then parking the truck at my cousin's house, and then heading out to see what I can see. Might end up in Utah and Arizona bit as well before heading back to the truck.
The Guzzis will most likely be riding the bench for that trip.
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Way to go chief, and just in time for Spring!
Sarah