V7 first gen final drive leak

[mhershon]

I noticed oil on the right side of my rear wheelrim. I had changed the final drive gear oil a month or so previously and I thought perhaps I'd overfilled it. So I put the bike on the centerstand and a tiny bit of oil escaped from the level hole. Since then, oil has continued to appear on my rim and on the side of the tire. So...you V7 riders out there, what do I have to buy to repair that leak? Is it one seal or two, and can I do it in the privacy of my garage space with hand tools?

This will be the first actual repair I've had to do to Cam's old bike. It has just over 24,000mi on it. Maybe when I had the wheel off to replace the tire I damaged something. Or maybe it had nothing to do with my clumsy wheel installation or my slight overfilling of the rear drive.

The bike is rideable and doesn't seem to be getting worse, but eventually I'll run out of gear oil back there, huh?

Thanks for any help you can offer!
Maynard

[malik]

You didn't refill with synthetic 140 did you? I did that on the '14  V7S and oil leaked past or through the seals onto the rim. The fix was to drain it, and refill with MINERAL oil, with a thickener (Nulon G70 added, at least, initially). On the other hand, I've used the synthetic stuff on the V7C, and my notes don't specifically list a problem attributable to the use of synthetic.

I have had a leak (at 102,000km on the V7C), took the cover off, reassessed my abilities and had it done professionally. I have not done the job myself, but I understand the first seal (the big one) is easy enough, but the small one is more difficult - & rumoured to require the application of special tools - in the words of the pros, a bugger of a job. Reading the workshop manual on it so confused me, I haven't tried again, but next time I'll probably have a go.

[Muzz]

. Maybe when I had the wheel off to replace the tire I damaged something. Or maybe it had nothing to do with my clumsy wheel installation or my slight overfilling of the rear drive.

Maynard

Nothing to do with your clumsy wheel installation.

Those rubber cush blocks are a real bear.

Re what Malik said, for some reason anecdotal evidence suggest synthetic can cause them to leak.  Seems to fix it going back to dino if you have used synthetic.  This was reported very early on in my Guzzi career and as a result it has only ever been dino plus a bit of moly go in to the rear end.

[Chuck in Indiana]

 Sean Fader, Guzzi wrench extraordinaire, told me to never use synthetic in the small block rear drive. The surface that seal rides on is prone to corrosion. If you can't do the job yourself..yes, it requires tools.. it's around $300 in labor. I have *many* miles on small blocks with dino oil and moly in the rear drive. So far, so good. 
Oh, boy.. an oil thread..

[MMRanch]

mhershon

I had a similar problem with my V-9 rear , the guy I bought it from must have had a problem with it too.  Yea , when I got the bike the rear-end drain washer was a "LOCK WASHER" ???  ... Yes it leaked ...

I saw the oil and bought the "Right" washer from a dealer .   It has a little gasket in the middle of the washer.  $6.oo washer .

The factory washer leaked too .   It could be the "LOCK-WASHER" might have damaged the hole surface (steel vs Aluminum) .   

The solution :

If you look at the drain hole in the rear-end , there is a recess made into the beginning of the hole.  So, why is there a recess in there ?   I found that a "O-Ring" under a flat-washer on the plug fits inside that recess right nicely and does a good job sealing the plug/hole get-to-gether.
Matter a fact , the plug has a non-threaded area at its base that looks to be made for an "O-Ring" .   

Good luck with it .... If all else fails , you can always use some black silicone sealer on the plug along with an "O-Ring" and the factory Flat-washer with its little gasket thingiee .    It don't make sense to me , that the type of oil could cause a leak ???    But , what do I know , I'm just a guy with a Motorcycle !

[mhershon]

Wow, thanks for the responses!

1. I used Bel-Ray Hypoid Gear Oil. The bottle says nothing at all about "synthetic." It's API GL-5 and it's 85W-140, so I think that's not the problem.
2. I think it would be worth it to drain the present gear oil and check the drain bolt and its washer. That's easy and I have plenty of gear lube in the bottle.
3. I'll do that and ride the bike again. Then I'll post the results to the forum. I gotta say: I sure hope it's something simple. I wish it had been my choice of gear oil...

Thanks!                        Maynard

[Tom H]

I don't really know small blocks, but I do remember something about when you change the oil you should ride the bike until it's warmed up and then open the level or vent plug for a moment to release pressure and then close it while it's still hot.

Maybe that might help or am I thinking of the wrong model?
Tom

[SmithSwede]

For what's its worth, my 2013 V7 Stone has always been run with synthetic oil in the final drive, and doesn't leak.   That being said, a lot of knowledgeable people suggest using only dino oil.    Can't hurt to try that.  If mine ever starts to leak, the first thing I would do it switch to dino. 

Is it overfilled?  Maybe drain the old stuff and make sure you have added the proper quantity.  I think it takes 170 ml.  I use a big horse syringe attached to a vinyl tube, and I heat the gear oil in hot water first.  Makes it much easier and cleaner to add the oil to the top of the unit, and know exactly how much you are actually putting in.

Make sure the relief cap on the top is free and clear.  Remove, squirt some WD-40 in there, and blow out with compressed air.  If the final drive can't vent when it heats up it could push the oil out.  I once got some mud into mine and it was clogged up.   Easy cheap maintenance. 

Before you panic and spend a lot of time and money trying to fix it, I would suggest just riding it a good while and see if it doesn't fix itself.   I think sometimes crud or corrosion gets onto the sealing faces, or maybe the seals dry out and shrink.   So maybe if you just ride it a good deal, letting things get hot and cool down, and the oil all circulates thoroughly, well, maybe the leak will go away.   Obviously don't do this if it's leaking so much that your rear tire and rear brakes are getting dangerously slippery.  And don't let it run dry. 

You might also take a look at the splines and couplers on the final drive shaft itself.   The only time my final drive unit leaked oil was when the couplings on the final drive shaft itself were buggered up.  I think that caused a vibration into the final drive unit that the seals couldn't contain.   Once I fixed the drive shaft problem, the final drive went back to not leaking.  Meaning I never had to tear it down and replace seals  Just a thought--maybe your final drive couplings are rusty and grotty and need some spline lube. 

[malik]

Wow, thanks for the responses!

1. I used Bel-Ray Hypoid Gear Oil. The bottle says nothing at all about "synthetic." It's API GL-5 and it's 85W-140, so I think that's not the problem.
2. I think it would be worth it to drain the present gear oil and check the drain bolt and its washer. That's easy and I have plenty of gear lube in the bottle.
3. I'll do that and ride the bike again. Then I'll post the results to the forum. I gotta say: I sure hope it's something simple. I wish it had been my choice of gear oil...

Thanks!                        Maynard

Sounds like the right oil. While you're at it, mix in your moly or other thickener (I use 20ml of the G70 & 150 of oil & stir thoroughly - tends to clump inside if not mixed), use a new crush washer or MMR's dowty washer on the drain (the cover is made of soft cheese so that drain is easily stripped/damaged), a new o-ring on the level plug, perhaps, and check that the breather is still breathing. Clean up with degreaser, then check for leaks after a fair run. Dusting with talc should make any leak obvious. If you can find a little squeeze bottle for the talc, it's easy to dust where you want.

And note what SmithSwede says.

[Beowulf]

Make sure the relief cap on the top is free and clear.  Remove, squirt some WD-40 in there, and blow out with compressed air.  If the final drive can't vent when it heats up it could push the oil out.  I once got some mud into mine and it was clogged up.   Easy cheap maintenance. 

Had this happen to me. Sprayed oil on the right side of my bike. Thought i had a more serious problem. Blew the relief cap out to find a bunch of crud and never had a problem since.

[Muzz]

Had this happen to me. Sprayed oil on the right side of my bike. Thought i had a more serious problem. Blew the relief cap out to find a bunch of crud and never had a problem since.

This.  Sign216 put me up to this.  The rear end used to stay spotless.  After doing this a slight oil mist deposits over say 2000 miles just from being able to vent.

It makes me wonder if the corrosion mentioned by Chuck is actually caused by trapped water vapour being unable to vent due to the vent being blocked.

[mhershon]

Last night I took out the vent cap and cleaned it a bit, then tried to blow through it and couldn't. I cleaned it best I could w/o an air hose. Then today I rode nearly 100 (quite cold) miles and there's some oil on the right side of the rim and tire, but not nearly as much as before. I think I'll change the final drive oil and take a long look at the drain bolt. Maybe gear oil is sneaking past it and spritzing my rim and tire... As you can imagine, I'm doing the easy stuff first. I love the idea that the leak could cure itself... Maybe it will!
Again, thanks, guys!
Maynard

[Vagrant]

you should be able to blow up like from the inside out but not outside in. if you can't the check ball is stuck.

[sign216]

This.  Sign216 put me up to this.  The rear end used to stay spotless.  After doing this a slight oil mist deposits over say 2000 miles just from being able to vent.

It makes me wonder if the corrosion mentioned by Chuck is actually caused by trapped water vapour being unable to vent due to the vent being blocked.

Muzz,

Yes, my vent bolt got plugged for no reason.  Cut a hole into it and now it vents fine.  A crude answer, but it works.  Check your plug.  It's the easy and cheapest thing to look at.

If not that, I've got some more ideas.

Joe

[Chuck in Indiana]

you should be able to blow up like from the inside out but not outside in. if you can't the check ball is stuck.

Unless it is different than the old small blocks, there isn't any check valve. Sounds awfully high tech for Guzzi.

then tried to blow through it and couldn't.

You've found your problem. Make that happen..

[mhershon]

Oh-kay...

I just drained the old fluid from my final drive. I put a new "o-ring washer" on the drain bolt. I put in the same mineral gear oil I used before and discovered that a British (or Imperial) ounce is slightly different from a US one. I put in 5.7 oz (170cc) of gear oil. I'll wipe the rim down with dilute Simple Green in the morning and see what happens next time I ride. I think I've done everything I can do without removing the wheel and the final drive - a bit of work I do not relish. Please keep posting ideas on this thread...and I'll let you know if I still have a leak...
Thank You, thankyou!

[SmithSwede]

Two more comments.

First, you should be able to easily blow through that vent cap from the threaded size with just lung pressure.    Side benefit is you get to taste a bit of gear oil.  If it doesn't easily blow through with lung pressure, it is still partially clogged.  Maybe try soaking it in solvent and then rooting around in there with a small wire or allen key.

Mine does not have a check valve.   It seems to simply be a threaded vertical tube, with a U-shaped "hat" staked on top so the rain can't drain in. Very low tech. 

I'm now pretty sure this is your problem. 

Second, you can get some white baby powder, or some kind of athlete foot spray, and "paint" your final drive with white powder.   Then go for a ride.  That should help you identify exactly where the oil is coming from.   

[mhershon]

After hearing from SmithSwede, I took the breather cap off and, because I do not have an air hose or even aerosol solvent, I blew Simple Green/water through from the bottom. It frothed out around that staked-in cap. I blew through it and it was like blowing through a drinking straw with a kink in it, not easy but workable. So - new gear oil of the correct grade and amount, new special washer around the drain bolt, clear breather cap... Wish me luck! The weather may have me off the bike for a day or so, but I'll post when I can ride again.
Thanks!

[SmithSwede]

Please do post back.   Even if your problem is solved.  Especially if solved!

It is much more informative for other readers if they can see that a particular solution actually worked.   

Good luck.   

These are fantastic bikes by the way.   Please don’t get discouraged. 

[pehayes]

On earlier V50's I replace the crimped vent with a roll-yer-own breather fitting and run a vent hose up under the seat.  Simple to make if you have lathe access.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[mhershon]

Oooh, Patrick! Having just blown through my crimped breather, I can see why you've made that fitting! I have no access to a lathe, but if I could buy one of those in plastic or whatever metal, I would do it. Correct me if I'm wrong: If I can take the drain bolt out of the final drive and the oil drains in a minute or so, my breather cap must be breathing. Right?

[Vagrant]

so since day one my 2017 V7III special has gotten moisture in the rear end everytime I ride in the rain. I mean it looks like heavy cream.
my 2015 V7 saw very little rain as it was kept in Az but never showed signs of moisture. after bringing it back to GA. last year and seeing some rain still none. when you blow up through it's top breather you can feel resistance then all of a sudden it pops off like a spring loaded check ball was in there. the 2017 has no resistance in either direction so I pried the cover off of it and there is a machined hole with a perfectly made chamfer in the bottom of it but no ball or spring. a standard BB fits perfectly .177 as I recall so I stuck one in and put the cover back on. haven't gotten to ride it again but if necessary I will put a small spring like from a ballpoint pen in there next. if that fails I will knock the guts out of a grease zerk and thread the hole for it then run a tube up under the fender.


And by the way 5.7 in mine and it blows it out. I use 5.6 yes it's that fussy. If I was you I'd try 5.4. a Goldwing only holds 4OZ.

[mhershon]

That's amazing, Vagrant! If it does blow out again, I'll use less gear oil. I had the bike level, both wheels on the garage floor, and just a little oil seeped from the filler hole. I waited until it was done seeping and put the level cap on. I'm sure it is not OVERfilled, but perhaps slight UNDERfilling is an answer. Thanks!

[MMRanch]

 I put a new "o-ring washer" on the drain bolt
................... .......

It might be good to use a little form-a-gasket and a good flat washer along with that new "O-ring" .   

[Muzz]

That's amazing, Vagrant! If it does blow out again, I'll use less gear oil. I had the bike level, both wheels on the garage floor, and just a little oil seeped from the filler hole. I waited until it was done seeping and put the level cap on. I'm sure it is not OVERfilled, but perhaps slight UNDERfilling is an answer. Thanks!

The first back end change I did on the Breva I made sure it was full drained, measured 190 mls and filled from the top.  It just started to dribble from the filler hole.  Now I don't measure, just put the 20mls of moly in and then fill via the breather hole until it just starts to flow from the filler.  With the vent out its a good time to give it a clean.

[mhershon]

Finally today I was able to get out and ride. Still lots of snow everywhere but the major roads are clear. I rode about 15mi out and 15 back. There is no oil on my rear rim or on the side of the tire. I think, I hope, the leak is fixed. When I changed the final drive oil a month or so ago, I did not check to see that the breather cap was clear. I think it probably wasn't, but I have no idea how it became clogged. I hadn't ridden in muddy or really dusty conditions. And I MAY, I couldn't swear either way, have re-used the o-ring washer on the final drive drain bolt.

Now the washer is new and the breather will pass air...and no sunburst of oil has reappeared on my back tire. I'll post again when I've been able to ride further and the temperature is higher.

Thanks a ton for all the help! So far, so good...
Maynard

[Muzz]

   So far so good.

[kingoffleece]

A magazine column story perhaps?

[malik]

The accompanying photos might be somewhat boring - black on grey - & none of us are Bill Brandt. He might have been able to get something artistic out of oil spots on rims.

[mhershon]

Longer, warmer ride today, still no leakage. MMRanch, when you suggest a good flat washer, I figure you mean an aluminum one on TOP of the o-ring one. Is that correct? If it continues not to leak, I'll leave it alone until the next gear lube change -- at the end of the summer. I'm bigtime relieved, guys, and grateful to you for the wealth of advice.
Maynard
PS  KOF, there probably is a story in here somewhere...
Oh, for those of you who are interested in Royal Enfields, I've just read, very cheaply on my Kindle, a book called Dodging Bullets. It's written by a guy who bought an old (Indian) Enfield in non-running condition, and made it into a somewhat dependable runner. Not a long book, it's full of frustration and excitement and good writing. Dodging Bullets by David Wittlinger.