Doing the hydro recall myself - part II

[Dnaj]

My camshaft came out and the new one went in fine. My borrowed special tool kit did not have the valve tappet/bucket locking rods, but the tappets came out fine with a magnet. The buckets stayed up with a magnet and the new buckets stayed in place with grease, so I was able to get the new camshaft installed. -no problem. Hardest trick was to make a 32mm (1.25") deep socket for loosening the center timing gear. Did this by welding a 1/2" drive junk socket on top of a 3/4" drive  1.25" socket, problem solved. Question one.  How to best lock down the crankshaft while torquing these tight. Which method did you use?

Changing the valve springs was no problem. Shims, took two thin wafers on each exhaust side and one thin wafer on each intake side. So I think that's probably about OK.

The problem I am now having is with the adjustable rocker arms. At this juncture, I'm simply test fitting the rockers. I also don't have the tappet tool, so I installed the dummy tappet with a magnet and it felt like it centered well and fell into the bucket, or will I really need that tool?

The books says there are two sets of adjustable rockers , two left and two right. Is it possible to accidentally interchange these? I assume they mean each cylinder gets one left and one right as one faces the cylinder. Does one need to use the tappet adjusting/assembly tool, finger tight against each adjustable rocker, so as to best line up the rocker shafts for adjusting the valves and installing the rockers --as we did to remove the shafts from the old rockers? .The rocker shafts on the new rockers just don't seem to line up correctly and leave no room for working the adjusters. Also, am I correct to assume I must reinstall the small shim and spring which went along side with the old non-adjustable rockers? I'm a bit unclear about the stage of the assembly, so I thought to ask. Thank you.

[Wayne Orwig]

I often lock the crankshaft with a screwdriver poked into the starter gear, through the timing hole. Will that help?

I have used just the special 'bridge' tool to measuring for the shims, and the special dummy tappet to set the adjustment. As far as I recall, those are the main 'must have' tools.

Not sure I understand on the rocker arms. The brass washers and springs must go back on the new rocker arms. You would be hard pressed to get the wrong rocker arms in the wrong place.

[Dnaj]

I have used just the special 'bridge' tool to measuring for the shims, and the special dummy tappet to set the adjustment. As far as I recall, those are the main 'must have' tools.

By way of bridge tool, is that the one for compressing the valve springs? Or is it the the other one for removing the rockers?

Well I guess I'm not clear on setting the adjustment. My adjustable rocker shaft does not seem to line up if installed with the pushrod and adjuster, and one can forget about adjusting it. I must be doing something wrong, I just haven't figured it out yet. The instructions seem vague to me here.

[guzzisteve]

Once you take the dummy solid lifter out and install the pumped up hydro lifter, you must push down hard to get the rocker pin in the hole. Not fun at all.

[Wayne Orwig]

By way of bridge tool, is that the one for compressing the valve springs? Or is it the the other one for removing the rockers?

Well I guess I'm not clear on setting the adjustment. My adjustable rocker shaft does not seem to line up if installed with the pushrod and adjuster, and one can forget about adjusting it. I must be doing something wrong, I just haven't figured it out yet. The instructions seem vague to me here.

How did you measure for the valve spring shim if you did not have the 'bridge' (which is also used for the compressor)?

As Steve states, are you able to set the adjustment with the dummy lifter, or are you having issues getting the rocker in, with the dummy lifter?

[Dnaj]

I have the  "bridge tool" I just didn't know that nickname.

As I understand it. I must install the rockers and pushrod with the dummy tappet in, I can't seem to fit that (by hand) so that I can make the adjustment.

[Wayne Orwig]

Cam timing off?
The wrong TDC?

[Dnaj]

Is TDC where the cam and crank timing gear marks aligned at 6:00 and 12:00 o'clock? That seemed to be the place.

If by chance, I put the gear set on with a tooth off a bit, how can I confirm that. It does seem the piston stop rising when those marks align. The marks align. Wouldn't they be off? See pix. Or will I need to use the rocker assembly tool. (Which I have) to put some pressure on the rocker. I thought that gets used only for with the hydraulic tappers installed. I'm still using the dummy.

[Dnaj]

Here is a pix of my problem, the rocker shaft won't clear the final hole by a smidgen and there will be little or no adjustment. It's like the shaft is slightly cocked. I did notice my new valve springs were substantially longer and heavier than the old ones. Is that normal? By chance the wrong ones?

[tazio]

Valve spring coil bound having no further compaction?

[Wayne Orwig]

Here is a pix of my problem, the rocker shaft won't clear the final hole by a smidgen and there will be little or no adjustment. It's like the shaft is slightly cocked. I did notice my new valve springs were substantially longer and heavier than the old ones. Is that normal? By chance the wrong ones?

I thought the valve springs were hard to tell apart.  BUT, that was a LONG time ago and years of beers. The main change was the shimming and the alloy top cap.
But that should not matter. The valve stem length is still the same.

Is the rocker arm hitting the valve spring cap there? It should be hitting the valve stem of course.

Have you spun the motor 720 degrees to verify that you are on the compression stroke?

At one time there was a 'fix' that put shims in the tappets. You don't have those in there do you?

[Dnaj]

I never looked closely inside the buckets. Are the bucket shims something that would come out the top? Or do I have to drop the bucket out the cam hole again. I will say I did not put any shims in the buckets and they looked empty, but I did not closely examine them.

I am able to hand fit each adjustable rocker. I used a bore scope to ensure TDC on each cylinder. I found I was able to install (but I did not yet adjust) each exhaust side. I had to turn the crank a few degrees either way to find the maximum exhaust valve clearance, but I could not reach all the way to .5mm? Do they really want it that loose. So far, backing out the adjusters and measuring maximum clearance, I'm at .28mm to .3mm.

The left hand cylinder TDC matches up with the timing marks.

With the exhaust at maximum (flattest spot on the cam lob I think) I can fit the adjustable rocker on the intake side too by hand with no force, but I have very very little clearance. I'm afraid to back out the adjusters to far because they are at the bottom of their thread. I don't want to shear them off.

Do you think I could see any bucket shims with the bore scope? Or would they have come out with the magnet in any empty bucket. I don't think they are there.

Your right about the valve stem length. I had to think about that one.

[Dnaj]

Here is what it looks like inside the buckets. Always find new uses for this scope!

[Wayne Orwig]

I will say I did not put any shims in the buckets and they looked empty, but I did not closely examine them.

The new bucket/tappet/follower should not have had the shims. The shim was a bad attempt at a fix early on. Quickly abandoned.

You are trying this just with the special calibrated dummy plunger right? The dummy plunger you have is shorter that the 4 standard plungers, correct?
The picture doesn't help me much. Is that the dummy plunger?

Sorry, not much help.

[Dnaj]

No, I was just showing I had the new buckets installed, and there are no shims inside. I was able to take that picture with them still inside the engine. And yes, I'm only using the dummy tappet.

I'm getting close. I can hand fit everything. And I can get the proper .5mm clearances for the exhaust valves, but I have zero lash on the intake side, left and right. I'm afraid to back out the adjuster with too much force because they are at the bottom (rather top) of their thread range. Is that what I'm left to do? Try to get 1/2mm out of the last thread? That looks like it will really take it past their intended range but I can get close to the intended lash. Do you recall if your valve adjusters were adjusted far at the end of their threaded range? 

[Wayne Orwig]

Do you recall if your valve adjusters were adjusted far at the end of their threaded range?

I don't recall the exact setting, but no, they were not near the end of the travel.

I'm stumped.

Can you post a photo of a hydraulic plunger beside the calibrated plunger?
And a side view of the adjustable rocker compared to the original fixed rocker.

No idea what I'm looking for though. I'm grasping for an answer.

[Dnaj]

I don't recall the exact setting, but no, they were not near the end of the travel.

I'm stumped.

Can you post a photo of a hydraulic plunger beside the calibrated plunger?
And a side view of the adjustable rocker compared to the original fixed rocker.

No idea what I'm looking for though. I'm grasping for an answer.

Yes, I will but I think I got it. I hesitated to turn the adjusters past that point where the threads are no longer visible, but I found it to be much more forgiving than I thought. It does turn past that point and it actually takes a lot of force to break those adjusters off. There may be no visible threads at the one end, but there is still some travel as the unthreaded portion of the shaft is much smaller in diameter than the threaded portion. It does screw up, into and out of the rocker fine,  Everything is now fitting well by hand. And I've got the required clearances. Here is where I ended with .5mm lash. Photos to come.

[Dnaj]

This is the intake adjustable rocker set at .5mm. I was concerned because the final threads are up into the rocker, but found that they still adjusted OK. I was very cautious give the shear design. Please tell me this looks OK. 



Here is the dummy and new tappets.



fixed versus adjustable.






At this point, everything goes in easy. I think Im ready to install the hydraulic tappets and give it a go.

[Wayne Orwig]

I think you got it. I don't recall the depth on mine. I can whip off a valve cover and get a photo if you think it is still an issue.

As Steve mentioned, it IS a bit of a pain to compress the real plunger down to the calibrated level and get the pin in the rocker.

[Dnaj]

I'll give it a wing. Thanks for being my sounding board. As I grow old, I find it best to go slow and double, triple check.

[Dnaj]

I think you got it. I don't recall the depth on mine. I can whip off a valve cover and get a photo if you think it is still an issue.

As Steve mentioned, it IS a bit of a pain to compress the real plunger down to the calibrated level and get the pin in the rocker.

Coupla outstanding items, which I can't find in my book. How does on verify the functioning of the oil pressure relief valve? Other than cleaning it and putting it back in the same order. Also looking for torque specs for the timing cover, oil pan bolts, and the relief valve? Does the relief valve get locktite? Going out to get oil now. This should be running by end of day. Thanks.

[Wayne Orwig]

All of those 6mm fasteners use 4.5 - 8 ft/lbs.

I don't see a spec for the relief valve torque or Loctite in my manual. I think I would use a little mild Loctite personally.
There is tool, which is a simple block with a pressure gauge, that you screw the relief valve into. You apply air pressure and verify that it opens in the 54-60 lbs range.
 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Coupla outstanding items, which I can't find in my book. How does on verify the functioning of the oil pressure relief valve? Other than cleaning it and putting it back in the same order. Also looking for torque specs for the timing cover, oil pan bolts, and the relief valve? Does the relief valve get locktite? Going out to get oil now. This should be running by end of day. Thanks.

To test oil pressure relief valves, I built this rig:



In the photo it's set up to test a "Loopframe" valve, but it also has threads in the upper "puck" that the air hose attaches to for Tonti valves.



Shims are added or removed to attain the proper "blow off" pressure. I normally set them to 60 - 70 psi blow-off. If the proper pressure can't be reached by changing shims, then it's sometimes necessary to lap the piston to the valve body.

<opening can of worms> Factory spec. for the M6-1.00 timing cover and sump socket head cap screws is 7 ft. lbs./84 in. lbs. Don't know that I've seen a spec. for the relief valve. I don't use thread locker on that.

[Dnaj]

OK, guess I'll scratch that but if I have an oiling problem, I can send it to you...

Just now wrapped things up. Spark plugs out, hit the button, circulate oil till the oil pressure light goes out, check.
repeat, check.

What should I expect when I start this thing up if all is good? Will it clank and bang the first few seconds, or should it be quiet since I circulated the oil and built pressure?

I'm gonna gas it up and fire it up tomorrow. I'm tempted to do it tonight, but, well things tend to go wrong when rushed or dark.

[guzzisteve]

Put plugs in & start it, it'll be fine

[Chuck in Indiana]

Put plugs in & start it, it'll be fine

This

[Wayne Orwig]

Go for a ride.

[Muzz]

This thread really gives me the warm fuzzies!

Someone prepared to give it a go, with others being the sounding board and generally pointing in the right direction. Good effort all round.

I know when I was immersed in the bowels of the Breva's gearbox how absolutely stuck I would have been without the members on this site. Great stuff.

[cookiemech]

The suspense is killing me . . . 

[Dnaj]

This

That's exactly what it did. Fire'd up, no hesitation, sat there and idled smoothly.

Finishing up .  .

I noticed my tach doesn't work. I'm not sure it worked before. I just don't know. Is there a pickup sensor somewhere I might have bumped or one I can check?

I have a slight fuel leak at the fuel tank level sensor. I think the PO tightened the living crap out of it cause I can barely budge it.

I have a bent handle bar, just slightly. Does the titanium use the came color bar? Cant seem to locate one used.