White grease under valve cover ?

[drab]

Did my first service on a V7 iii today.

When I took the valve covers off there appeared to be a fair amount of what looked like white lithium grease under the cover. It coated some of the underside of the valve cover itself.  And also some of was sitting on the top end of the rocker shaft thingies.  Having never done valves on an engine before I didn't think anything of it.  So did not take a picture or anything.

My dad, with years of BMW motorcycle experience said that sounded odd to him. 

Is this normal?  Do I need to take off the valve covers and take a picture so people can see what I am talking about? 

Thanks in advance for helping a newbie.

[Darren Williams]

That sounds like the infamous "mayo" from the oil not getting up to temp.

I've had it on my CARC bikes when riding in the winter.

[Kev m]

Emulsified oil (short trips in cold weather, forming moisture that isn't evaporated) was my first thought too.

[drab]

That describes it.

I went and took a picture  (sure like how easy it is to work on this.)

If that is what it is, is it a concern?

[Kev m]

Yeah that's it.

The concern is you need to clean it all out and make sure you run the motor longer in cooler temps to keep it from forming again.

[drab]

Hey thanks.

I have owned it since Thursday.  Sounds like the previous owner took short trips.

[pyoungbl]

It is a concern in that you are not letting the engine get up to a high enough temp to burn off the water that is created by combustion.  The Guzzi engine is over cooled.  That's an insurance policy for those hot summer days when you are caught in a traffic jam.  On the other hand, on cooler days you really need to force the engine to get hot enough to boil off that moisture.   The mayo won't grenade the engine but it certainly does not do it any favors either.

Peter Y.

[Pizza Guzzi]

Don't be too hard on the OP he's only had the bike for a few days.

Glenn

[normzone]

Just fire it up and ride it, ride it, ride it and ride it a little more.

Then change the oil if you think it needs it, but it probably just needs riding.

[drab]

Going on a 3 day motorcycle camping trip tomorrow.  Will be sure to get a lot of riding in.

[pete roper]

And don't poofter about running at 3-4,000rpm. Wring the little buggers neck. Try riding in 4th at wider throttle openings if needed. It needs to get good and hot.

[mtwillyman]

In the 15 years I've owned my 2003 Stone, it always makes the "mayo" when I ride it and it's less then 60 degrees out. I could ride from Port Ludlow to Portland and the "mayo" will still form. none of my Airheads or Harleys ever did this. My Norge does not do it either. I clean the valve covers every 4-5 rides and the turd still runs.

[John Warner]

Not sure about the V7 Engines, but the 1200 8V is badly over-cooled.
If you fit an Oil Temp Gauge (and you really should do on an Oil/Air-Cooled Engine), you'd most likely find the Oil Temps don't get anywhere near what they should.

My Stelvio would struggle to get the Oil above around 75-80°C on cooler days (below around 12°C), even less if it was raining too.
Makes no difference how far you ride either, it'll reach it's 'normal' operating temperature for the conditions in around 15-20 mins, then pretty-much stay there no matter how many miles you do.

Synthetic Oils (which Guzzi specify) work best at around 110-120°C, and anything below 95-odd won't get rid of the moisture in the Oil, so you get the 'Mayo' forming.
Moisture in the Oil can also combine with the Sulfurous by-products from Combustion, forming acids, which isn't good for Engine internals.

I originally ran mine with a cover over the Cooler in colder weather, then I made a Thermostat to go in the Cooling Oil Circuit.
It now warms up much quicker, and the Oil Temp settles around the 115-120° mark.

[Kev m]

Just fire it up and ride it, ride it, ride it and ride it a little more.

Then change the oil if you think it needs it, but it probably just needs riding.

I could be wrong, but once it forms I don't think the moisture will separate from the oil just due to engine heat.

I only ever experienced this on my Jackal, which I commuted on in winter, maybe only 20-30 minutes each way.

My B11 motor ran hotter and I rarely rode it THAT short a distance I'm the winter.

Haven't seen it on my V7 Stone yet, probably for similar reasons.

Haven't had the cover off the IIID YET.

[Dilliw]

A good hot spring day and a long ride will resolve the situation. I vote for that fix 

[Kev m]

My Stelvio would struggle to get the Oil above around 75-80°C on cooler days (below around 12°C), even less if it was raining too.
Makes no difference how far you ride either, it'll reach it's 'normal' operating temperature for the conditions in around 15-20 mins, then pretty-much stay there no matter how many miles you do.

Synthetic Oils (which Guzzi specify) work best at around 110-120°C, and anything below 95-odd won't get rid of the moisture in the Oil, so you get the 'Mayo' forming.
Moisture in the Oil can also combine with the Sulfurous by-products from Combustion, forming acids, which isn't good for Engine internals.

Do you have anything to support the point that 75-80°C will not allow moisture to purge regardless of run time?

Again my experience is anecdotal, but with plenty of riding in subfreezing temps and almost all of it with synthetic oils, I've never seen the mayo on anything but the Jackal and even it was fine once I discovered it and lengthened the winter rides.

I don't believe the boiling point of water is the ultimate determinator here since we know water will evaporate below that right?

Now maybe oil temp measurement is the rogue element since whether it is measured at the sump or oil bag it doesn't tell us peak temp in the motor (say on the cylinder walls, v underside of the piston, and in the heads).

Of course I also suspect other ambient conditions play a part as well. The air here is generally very dry in winter, elsewhere that might not be the case.

[John Warner]

Do you have anything to support the point that 75-80°C will not allow moisture to purge regardless of run time?

Just the fact that mine suffered from the 'Mayo' in the Valve Covers (and other places unseen no doubt) at those Oil temps, even after long rides, until I fitted my Thermostat.
I've still seen a little of it even with the higher Oil temps, if I've only been doing short trips, particularly in wet weather, but no-where near as much as previously.

Even if I hadn't had the Mayo issue, I'd still have done the Thermostat mod.
I'm much happier knowing the Oil is up to it's 'optimum' working temperature, and gets there quicker.

Remember the old Castrol Oil TV ads, where they said 75% of Engine wear occurs during warm-up?

[twowheeladdict]

I haven't checked the Guzzi manual, but my Harley manual says to change the oil more frequently when riding the bike in cold temps. 

[drab]

I originally ran mine with a cover over the Cooler in colder weather, then I made a Thermostat to go in the Cooling Oil Circuit.
It now warms up much quicker, and the Oil Temp settles around the 115-120° mark.

Is there a write up of this mod somewhere?

[cliffrod]

I don't believe the boiling point of water is the ultimate determinator here since we know water will evaporate below that right?

You're thinking in a good direction, Kev. 

As a chef, you exploit the benefits of a barrier to water evaporation formed by an oil film.  Oil is oil.  Water is water, whether it's relatively pure water or a solution containing water.  An emulsion is a very effective means of combining oil and water, where water molecules are evenly dispersed among/between the oil/lipid/long chain molecules.  The more uniform the distribution- basically if each water molecule is uniformly coated or surrounded by lipid molecule(s) to separate & limit the water molecules from pooling together- the more durable the emulsion.   Poorly done emulsions, like too many vinaigrettes, quickly separate back into oil and water-based liquid.

Add salt to the mix and it is a further barrier to evaporation. as water containing dissolved salt evaporates- especially if there is a somewhat stable surface- salt is left behind at the surface level, requiring water to rehydrate this salt before more water can evaporate. Even in a solution, salinity may be greater at the surface level as this happens.  This slows water loss even more significantly, even when ambient temps are well above 212F.  when employed in conjunction with the hypertonic/hypotonic function, this is how the greatly misunderstood process of brining works, whether or not oil is applied to the surface of the product.

I'm not an engine oil expert, but I wouldn't be surprised for there to be ionic compounds (salts) in there as well.  short summary of some of this phenomenon - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7900838_Evaporation_Rates_of_Water_from_Concentrated_Oil-in-Water_Emulsions

[oldbike54]

 Smithswede's new to him 900 SS Ducati was making mayo on the way from Dallas to Cedar Vale . Solution was to run 90 MPH in 4th gear on the Indian Nations turnpike in Oklahoma for about 100 miles . Cleared it right up 

 Dusty

[LowRyter]

Italian Tuneup.

[Kev m]

Cliff - interesting stuff, I need to read more about it thx.

Just the fact that mine suffered from the 'Mayo' in the Valve Covers (and other places unseen no doubt) at those Oil temps, even after long rides, until I fitted my Thermostat.
I've still seen a little of it even with the higher Oil temps, if I've only been doing short trips, particularly in wet weather, but no-where near as much as previously.

Even if I hadn't had the Mayo issue, I'd still have done the Thermostat mod.
I'm much happier knowing the Oil is up to it's 'optimum' working temperature, and gets there quicker.

Remember the old Castrol Oil TV ads, where they said 75% of Engine wear occurs during warm-up?

I hear ya, and that's what I figured. The problem is how to rectify our anecdotal experiences.

The differences include ambient conditions, the bike (8V Stelvio vs. my B11 or any of these smallblocks), not to mention differences in measurement (I have no oil temp data for my Guzzis, though I have taken plain head temp readings with infra-red, my oil temp data has come largely from Harleys with temp dipsticks so that's hard to compare).

I kinda feel like the key is preventing mayo from forming in the first place. My gut suggests that the occasional long run doesn't matter if there have already been sufficient short runs to form the stuff if that makes sense. I wonder how our usage differs in that case.

No matter it is up to each of us to check for the stuff (when we check valves) and make adjustments to our usage/maintenance etc. if we find it.

[Kev m]

Smithswede's new to him 900 SS Ducati was making mayo on the way from Dallas to Cedar Vale . Solution was to run 90 MPH in 4th gear on the Indian Nations turnpike in Oklahoma for about 100 miles . Cleared it right up 

 Dusty

Dusty, can you tell me more? This is interesting because it might point out my guesses about reversing it once it has occurred are wrong.

Or maybe there are just more factors in play than for which I can possibly account.

[Sasquatch Jim]

 It's one of the benefits of synthetic oils.  Short trips add a lot of condensation to the oil making it into cottage cheese.
 This in turn partially plugs oil returns and kills engines. solution is to use Dino oil or make only long trips.

[dguzzi]

Seems like a poor engine breather system. PCV system undersized? (Need to get the condensation pulled out more efficiently)
  Not sure how you could change it; so the answers above are best.

[oldbike54]

Dusty, can you tell me more? This is interesting because it might point out my guesses about reversing it once it has occurred are wrong.
,
Or maybe there are just more factors in play than for which I can possibly account.

 I only know what Swede said , he will probably be along shortly to elaborate . Here is what we do know , it was cool and damp on the roughly 400 mile trip up , and he didn't ride much in CV due to several factors . He said the sight glass was showing nothing but white stuff , so the oil cooler was blocked off , still didn't clear up . The 100 mile blast at higher speeds , and warmer drier temps on the Indian Nations turnpike seems to have cleared up the oil . I am curious to hear what the chemists here say re the effects on the oil . Is it OK , is it ruined ? Swede and I had an interesting discussion about this after he was home , seems maybe these air cooled lumps are mostly over cooling in normal conditions .

 Dusty

[pyoungbl]

The mayo problem is not unique to Guzzi.  I had a similar case with air cooled Ducks.  It was possible to eliminate the white stuff in the sight glass by taking the bike out for a long spirited ride.  Riding in cool, wet, weather would bring the white stuff right back.  The evaporative cooling from a wet road made it all but impossible to get oil hot enough.  Pick a dry day.

Peter Y.

[cliffrod]

The key to making a good emulsion, like mayo (edible or inedible...) is to agitate a larger quantity of fat/oil vigorously while introducing a smaller amount of liquid at a slower rate.  Many culinary emulsions are taught to be made by doing the opposite.  Whisk oil while slowly adding liquid. Fail.  The oil shatters and then you try to break up the slippery globs of oil floating around in The liquid.  Fail.  Reverse the process and it actually produces a durable emulsion that will last exponentially longer.  Edible mayonnaise is based upon adding oil to a whisked mixture that already contains lecithin (found in eggs, which promotes emulsion) so it is an enhanced process vs a simple oil & water emulsion.

The frenetic agitation of a larger quantity of oil by valve train components, partnered with a significantly lesser amount of present water that is already in relatively small particles or film, is an ideal way to produce a strong emulsion.  Someone with more spare time and interest than I have could save some engine mayo, place it in a covered glass jar on the shelf and see how long it takes the condensate to separate & pool at the bottom of the jar.  I bet it will take a while, not just a few minutes.

The synthetic vs Dino oil argument probably has more to do with synthetic having fewer other components present that also interact with the water in some manner.  A lipid (oil) molecule is a long chain of individual compounds (think string of pearls) that provides lubricant qualities as these long molecules slide along each other and surfaces they contact.  For a synthetic oil to lubricate like a Dino oil, the basic molecular structure is probably very close.

Swede's experience could be a combination of many things, including ambient humidity.  Just as salt tends to equate in solution (hypertonic-hypotonic), humidity between areas or systems tends to equlalize in an effort to achieve homeostasis.  If the weather-environmental humidity was pretty low and the engine breather worked well, humidity in the engine would work harder to equalize with environmental humidity outside.  Little things like this are obvious when working in certain fields, such as dedicated baking & dough work.  Certain conditions seem to create a more noticeable impact than others, so it's easy to attribute the results in a anecdotal direction than actual cause and effect result of chemical and physical processes.  I expect you would generally see a drying of oil/reduction of mayo much faster when riding in an area of lower humidity like dallas to cv than in a high humidity area like along the gulf coast.

[oldbike54]

 ^^^

 All correct except for the part about it not being humid out here  At the moment we are at about 60% , on our way to 80% . I hate humidity 

 Dusty