V7 Muffler Fire

[Kiwi_Roy]

I thought I would make all you V7 owners aware of a potential fire risk with the OEM mufflers.
For some reason it drifted into an alternative muffler thread so I re-named it lol Oopps, changed it again
I had a battery charging issue with my 1 year old V7III a week ago that in a round about way caused the catalytic converters to get super hot setting both mufflers on fire.
Waiting at a light I received a tap on the shoulder "Do you know your motorcycle is on fire?"
Sure enough 6" flames coming out from behind the trim over the cat of both mufflers.
These flames had a pretty good hold, I wouldn't have got them out if it hadn't been for a passing car handing me a bottle of water so I was able to cool things down

I pulled the trim of the catalytic converter to see what was burning up

It seems it was the aluminium foil that was burning, the crinkled part has no body left and you can tell some is missing.
It might have been the glue used to stick the foil in place.


 

[fotoguzzi]

Wow, how did a battery charging issue start that? And shouldn't there be a recall?

[Zoom Zoom]

I too am curious how these troubles are connected.

ZZ

[Kiwi_Roy]

Wow, how did a battery charging issue start that? And shouldn't there be a recall?

All started with a charging problem, flat battery but lets not get into that in this thread, yes I think there should be a recall, I'm sure I'm not the first and won't be the last.
From stone cold to fire was less than 5 km travel limping to the dealership. I'm sure I'm not the first and I won't be the last.

[Kev m]

John I'm assuming drop in voltage caused drop in ignition output and raw fuel getting to cat-con and burning there.

[Bert Remington]

I agree with Kev m.  The battery/charging problem led to a misfueling problem which led to a convertor overheating problem.

I can't speak to a recall except to note Italy's economy is of concern to the ECB.

I was going to keep the stock exhaust for my V7 III Stone neighborliness reasons but am now rethinking that position.  I'll check with Cadre and GTM on the quietest systems they recommend.

Thanks for sharing KR.

[mechanicsavant]

I was never comfortable w/the amount of heat from the cat area of my V7II exhaust . I also found the heat shields barely adequate . Sooo i removed the elements from said exh. And have been happier since . Kev M is probably right about the raw fuel in the exh. “Lighting off” in the converters . I’ve seen this many times in cars. Also an issue with O2 sensor or MAP sensor . But those should trip a “check engine “warning light or message of some kind . A side benefit of no cats is I’m less nervous when parked in the pits . As now the bike is for off road or closed course only !

[Vagrant]

Mistrals with the DB killer are too quiet. not much if any more than stock.

[Zoom Zoom]

John I'm assuming drop in voltage caused drop in ignition output and raw fuel getting to cat-con and burning there.

Sounds like one ought to consider putting a volt meter on the bike.

Other options no doubt, but I have used this in the past:
https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/kuryakyn-led-12-volt-battery-gauge?gclid=CjwKCAjw_-D3BRBIEiwAjVMy7AUhRkCox3aqBYFYMP2SOUOgXXy2f6A05MPTH-jFfwIso27oovlBhxoCvsEQAvD_BwE

I had one of these  and have mixed thoughts on this particular one. It is accurate though.

John Henry

[Zoom Zoom]

I might add, if in fact a low voltage condition is the source of this issue, and it very well could be as Kev explained it, adding a volt meter would certainly cost less than replacing the exhaust.

Just saying...

John Henry

[Bert Remington]

Thanks Vagrant.  I checked the Mistrals at AF1 and Agostinis and GTMs at GTM.  I really had other plans for that money (replace Pirelli Speed Demons with Avon Trailriders).  I'm going to hold off on exhaust decision until the 900 miles service.

Thanks to everyone's heads-up I'm going to do the following:

Battery -- replace with Shorai LFX21A6-BS12

Regulator -- replace with GTM ESR - New Model if MOSFET or Roadster Cycle FH020AA

Connectors -- get to know my new V7 III with Honda Lithium Dielectric Grease and Loctite 243 at hand.

Voltmeter -- permanently directly connect to the battery something like this:

[Bulldog9]

Be sure to check MG Cycle for exhaust options too.

Not sure I am tracking the low voltage causing the issue, coils do not use much power to create spark, certainly far less then the power/amps necessary to turn the starter, but the various odditites of Guzzi FI is often lost on me.

For Volt Meter, you may want to check out one of these, will give you USB power to boot. Lot's of options out there.

 https://www.amazon.com/BlueFire-Waterproof-Voltmeter-Motorcycle-Silver-Green/dp/B07MNBYYHG

[Bert Remington]

Another factor to take under consideration: the Secondary Air Supply (SAS).  Per Godrey at GTM forum "The SAS is specifically there to preserve the functionality of the catalytic converters in the OEM mufflers, much like the oxygen sensors. With the catalytic converters, the injection of fresh, oxygen-rich air into the exhaust stream on overrun provides the oxygen needed to consume excess fuel on overrun conditions that would otherwise damage and reduce the effectiveness of the cat-cons over time; it extends the burn and keeps the cat-cons hot enough."

The SAS consists of reed valves, hoses and an electrical connection to the system valve.  The reed valves and hoses probably won't fail but if the system valve or its connection are faulty and not detected by the ECU then there is the possibility of excess (unburned) fuel reaching the convertors during deceleration (overrun) which will overheat them.  This won't be a singular event but rather cumulative over time.  Something to add to your connector checklist.

[Vagrant]

haven't looked in a while but MG was way cheaper. get new exhaust gaskets to unless they come with them.

[Kiwi_Roy]

You guys are all ignoring the fact that I am very lucky to still have this bike.
The combustible exhaust needs to be addressed, not the battery Voltage problem, It went from stone cold on the side of the road to almost total melt down in 10 minutes. Yes Kev M the unburnt fuel in the cat caused them to overheat which set the Aluminium foil or glue alight, it was not going out without application of water.
I'm not sure what the foil is supposed to do but it's sure a good fire starter.
 

[Bert Remington]

KR -- more important to us than your motorcycle is your injuries were limited to a burnt hand so we are lucky to still have YOU.

I am not the only one who appreciates your sharing this information with us so we can be proactive in keeping our rides and riding safe.

I can't speak to the chemistry of burning aluminum foil which is why I've tried to address the circumstances under which it might occur.  I really prefer not to change my exhaust system even though it is heavy and, as you pointed out, potentially dangerous.  Especially since I will usually have Givi E22N ABS plastic side cases present.  So I'm trying prevention first.

Please keep us informed as you proceed to a resolution.  Thanks.

[Zoom Zoom]

Not trying to ignore that at all. Nobody wants their bike going up in flames.

Identifying the source of the trouble so it can be prevented in the future is. As for the foil, does it need to be there? I don't know. It is a heat shield after all.

With the V7 series being the most popular Guzzi of the last few years, I would expect we would have heard more about this if it were a design flaw, which brings us back to what caused this in the first place and more importantly, how to prevent it.

It could also be a faulty LAMBDA sensor telling the ECU there is a lean condition and feed in more fuel. We are sincerely interested in this trouble you had.

I just don't know if spending a grand on an exhaust system is the fix. I would be concerned that is simply masking something needing attention.

John Henry

[Kev m]

Not sure I am tracking the low voltage causing the issue, coils do not use much power to create spark, certainly far less then the power/amps necessary to turn the starter, but the various odditites of Guzzi FI is often lost on me.

Sure but power drops can futz with the whole ignition system, timing, spark signal etc.


And yeah not ignoring anything, but it would seem like identifying the problem world be the first step in protecting everyone.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Connectors -- get to know my new V7 III with Honda Lithium Dielectric Grease and Loctite 243 at hand.

I sure as heck wouldn't use that anywhere on a modern Guzzi...

[Zoom Zoom]

I'm with you Charlie.

I also think Locktite is over used.

John Henry

[beetle]

I would expect we would have heard more about this if it were a design flaw, which brings us back to what caused this in the first place and more importantly, how to prevent it.

It could also be a faulty LAMBDA sensor telling the ECU there is a lean condition and feed in more fuel. We are sincerely interested in this trouble you had.

I agree. I doubt it's a design flaw, otherwise, as you say, the internet would be rife with anecdotes and lawsuits.

I'm thinking "no" on the lambda sensor. There's a limit on how much fuel can be added.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I'm with you Charlie.

I also think Locktite is over used.

John Henry

 

[Bobic69]

  Especially since I will usually have Givi E22N ABS plastic side cases present.

Malik gave me a great tip of lining bags/cases that are close to the exhaust with silicon sheet used for protecting kitchen tops from hot pots. Can be bought cheap on eBay.

[Bert Remington]

Too funny a grease and Loctite flame.

In my experience, some important MG connectors are "open" (eg, Molex style).  That is, they do not have seals preventing water intrusion.  Same with fuses.  I like to backfill the exposed terminals with the grease to block water intrusion plus reduce oxidation.  And when I separate the sealed connectors, I dab a bit of grease on the outside to make them easier to separate in the future.

Let me emphasize my concern when Vagrant in this post https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=105364.msg1685291#msg1685291 said

After fiddling to get the wire connections out it now is charging 14.1.

That information sent me on Red Alert for MG electrical problems.  It is a classic description of weather- and vibration-induced loss of terminal-to-terminal conductivity.  From my research (I don't have my V7 III yet) the two regulator connectors (3-pin to alternator and 4-pin to battery) are Molex-style (ie, terminals exposed to weather).  And the regulator is mounted in a weather-exposed location for cooling purposes.  Those are high current terminals and I can assure you when I receive my two-year old (2019) V7 I will treat those terminals with my DeoxIT cleaner and Honda grease (after replacing the regulator with a MOSFET version).

As manufacturers transition through the evolving multi-nation (and California ) emission standards they cannot afford for time and cost reasons to design and manufacture complete replacements of the old with the new.  There will be carryover.  The MG regulator connectors are an example.

For my RE this was fun (actually the Indian REs are quite good these days).  For my Norge I was mostly lucky.  For my new V7 this is a surprise and a bit of annoyance.  But ... it's a MG.  So I really appreciate everyone's sharing their lessons-learned.

Same with Loctite -- use it appropriately.  I have two digital torque wrenches, 1/4" and 3/8", that cover the MG externals torque requirements.  And I use them.  According to the torque specifications in my three printed manuals: main, engine, and parts.  For example, on the Norge I didn't use Loctite on the exhaust header nuts (I did use anti-seize) and they never loosened.  I mistakenly didn't use Loctite (and didn't use anti-seize) on the sidestand bolts -- lost one and was almost stranded an hour from home because the Norge leaned over so far.

I'm not a fan of Loctite -- I prefer stainless Nylock nuts and Nord-lock washers (I'm gonna get flamed for stainless but years of galled fasteners have taught me how to make them work).

WRT to heat protection I'm a fan of DEI's aluminized fiberglass mats.  But I'll look into that silicon sheet.  Gotta be cheaper than DEI.   Thanks.

[Bert Remington]

Head-thump. My apologies I mistyped Loctite 243 Red when I meant Loctite 242 Blue.  Very different applications.  I've never used Red.

[80CX100]

     Hey Roy,     Very glad that you and your bike came out of in relatively good shape, it could've ended much worse.

     You didn't go into as much detail on the low battery and starting troubles on this post, as you did on the other post in regards to the poor starting V9, but I'll throw my 2 cents out as to what may possibly have happened.

     I think when you experienced a low battery and a failure to start, the bike may not have had enough power to turn the starter BUT it did have enough power to cycle the ECU & fuel pump and dump extra gas through the injectors to prime and start the cold engine.

     When it didn't start, you possibly turned it off and on a few times trying to get it going without success,,, but each time you did that, even though the starter never received enough power to roll over, the fuel pump cycled each time overloading the TB's and cylinder with gas which ended up in the cat con as you tried to bump start it.

     When it finally fired and started you were literally sitting on a petrol bomb, I think you're very lucky the whole thing didn't go up.

     Why wouldn't there be many other stories of similar stories on the internet about it; the reality is when poorly conditioned batteries or faulty R/R's on the V7's result in a bike that won't start, most modern owners would throw in the towel, call for a tow truck,trailer, new battery,friend or mechanic,,, not many modern owners would have the backyard mechanical smarts and tenacity to get a dead machine going like you did bump starting it.

     I think you're on the right track about the high number of dead battery issues being due to improper initial conditioning, I can't find it right now but Docc has a lengthy thread on V11Lemans on proper battery conditioning methods, I absorbed a small amount of info, but am putting my faith in a CTek smart charger to keep my batteries in good shape.

      jmho fwiw
     
      Kelly

[Kiwi_Roy]

A bit more detail.
I rode about 40 km to Langley, stopped for coffee and the bike would not restart click click click as they do when the battery is flat, I have had my suspicions about the charging for quite a while. I had done 150 km the day before.
Push started OK so sought out a hill and stopped to drink my coffee.
It would not restart rolling down the hill, called the dealer where I bought it from <5km away, no help from there.
A guy came along and tried to give me a jump start, it would run for a few seconds with the odd backfire so we gave up on that
I tried calling the dealer again still no help. (they might of at least suggested a towing company)
Tried it one last time and it reluctantly started reving then dying but rideable so I set out for the dealers.
Waiting to turn at the last light (< 5km) when the guy tapped me on the shoulder.
Tried to bat out the flames with my glove, no joy there, it took water to quell the flames. Perhaps I should have ridden it on fire to the dealership and left it for them to deal with lol
Left it at the dealer for a week with no word, finally after a week I rode out there and was told the backfire had blown the throttle body off, its a wonder it started.
They had no explanation for the lack of charging which initiated the problem, "it tested ok"
I keep my bike really clean, there was no outside flammables introduced, it was the Aluminium foil and or glue that provided for fire.

If it can happen to me it can happen to someone else, I wonder what would happen at 80 mph with extra oxygen to burn?

Of course I will install a Voltmeter but I will get to the bottom of the charging system, I promise you that, it's still intermittent but the new battery is a little more forgiving.

[egschade]

I installed these MIVV slip on mufflers (with cats) and am impressed so far. Good sound w/o being loud and looks to be good quality. Bought them on ebay from Australia https://www.ebay.com/itm/MIVV-2-EXHAUST-HOM-GHIBLI-STEEL-BLACK-CERAMIC-MOTO-GUZZI-V7-III-2017-17-2018-18/183617290539?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

[Zoom Zoom]

Charging system could be fine. The battery may have simply gone bad.

John Henry

[Kiwi_Roy]

Why's everybody trying to turn this into an alternative exhaust thread, start your own thread or I will nuke this one 
I started this thread to alert owners of what I consider a serious safety issue.
I have no problem with the exhaust the bike came with apart from its flammable foil, it seems perfectly fine without it