The New Indian Chief Thunder Stroke 111 merged threadfest

[Chicago Mark]

OK, I am stating the obvious , but this is not an Indian , no heritage , no history . Polaris is a wonderful company , fine products , but they are not the Hendee Manufacturing ,co. builders of the Indian Motocycle ,no R . I hope Polaris can sell these , but marketing the heritage is ,well , marketing .
Dusty

By your same theory and reasoning, Moto Guzzi died the day Carlo Guzzi did. Then died again when DeTomaso bought it, then again when the Texas group bought the brand, then again when Aprilia bought them and again when Piaggio did. I may have missed an owner along the line somewhere. Sorry, but your theory doesn't hold any credibility IMHO. But, time will tell how things go.

Judging by my new Victory Cross Country Tour, Polaris knows their stuff and how to build a motorcycle. The CCT is simply the most comfortable and capable motorcycle I've ever been on. I don't need to change anything to 'make it fit'. Polaris even designed in adjustable brake and shift levers as they can move forward or rearward easily to accommodate a wide variety of riders. I have no idea if Polaris has a wind tunnel but even the air management on the CCT is superb.

I wish them nothing but success with the new Indian line.

All the best,

Mark

[John Ulrich]

I think it would be seriously cool if they built another air cooled inline four, sitting inline with the frame of the bike.  I witnessed an Indian four running a few months back, man what a sweet design!  ;-T

What a chilling thought... I'd want one   ;-T  
A club member here has a 99% judged Indian 4.  Stunning.........
http://seepictures.wix.com/genesgarage#!bikes

[wheaties]

Okay, so I bought a Dodge truck a while back.  Then Chrysler got sold to to Mercedes (that sale got called a partnership), so does that mean I started driving a Mercedes?  Now that Chrysler has been bought out by Fiat, well....  Then there's Jaguar owned by Ford.  The look is all Jaguar, but the chassis is all Ford.  Then you can take the MG design and sell it to Mazda.  They fix the electrical, put new sheet metal around it, and voila, it's a Miata.  Is it still an MG?  It still rides like one, less the gremlins.

As William said, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." 

Still, when you look at a Mustang, a Corvette, or a Thunderbird, you can see a continuity of design, even though some of those designs really had more to do with current trends than said continuity.  Somehow, to varying degrees, the essence of those design concepts survive.

Having read the hype regarding Indian, I'd say they've done more than just marketing to reach back in time and distill whatever it was that made an Indian respected and loved.  Many of us hope they succeed.  How will we know?  Folks that were dedicated Indian riders will see and feel something in the ride of the new bike that they recognize.   Those with the opportunity to ride old and new will recognize some kind of kinship.

If the attempt fails, it may be a great bike, but it will only be a modern bike with retro tins.    Better to drop the Indian name and give the new bike its own name before the Indian head logo falls off on its own. 

So yea,  it's just a name, just like a bike or car is just a machine.  But if it talks to you, it will tell you whether or not it's an Indian.

Right?

[Guzzigary777]

This is why Polaris picked up the Indian brand.  Victory started from scratch and has had a tough time picking up a following of any size big enough to worry H-D.  With Indian, presto...instant name recognition.  Everybody not already under the Harley umbrella is pulling for the Chief to make a big splash and at least get H-D's feet wet.  Now I think you are going to see Polaris market Victory to even further out on the cutting edge style wise,  while marketing a very modern technology engineered yet very retro styled Indian for a more traditionalist market.  Very smart.

[Kev m]

Chicago Mark ,my point is that marketing is not tied to production or quality . I am relatively sure that Polaris will build a fine bike , and I wish them well , but using the Indian name is a pure marketing ploy . If HD decided to revive the Pope or Cushman name would it be a Pope or Cushman ? In name only . Look I get it , they spent lots of money and time to obtain the trade mark , and I wish them well , but I refuse to be swayed by a million dollar ad campaign .
 Dusty

To take what Wheaties said a step further, the answer is
it depends.

A Pontiac Vibe is REALLY a Toyota Matrix, and similarly the Gilroy Indians were really Harleys. Yes, that was marketing.

But designing a ground up bike, be it an OHC Bonnie, a Griso 8V, or new Indian with a motor that harkens back to the look and design of the historic Indians are all examples of not JUST marketing...

It's designing a product in the style, tradition, and particular flavor which that brand name represented.

[Chicago Mark]

[quote

But designing a ground up bike, be it an OHC Bonnie, a Griso 8V, or new Indian with a motor that harkens back to the look and design of the historic Indians are all examples of not JUST marketing...

It's designing a product in the style, tradition, and particular flavor which that brand name represented.
[/quote]

I agree 100%. The Gilroy 'Indians' were, IMHO, catalog/parts bin bikes with nothing associated with Indian except the name on the tank. They weren't even a decent copy of a good motorcycle. But with the new Indian company under Polaris, this is a modern Indian motorcycle. Not only by the name on the tank, but by the design elements that went into designing every bit of it. They may be made in Spirit lake, Iowa under the same roof as the Victory brand, but Indian is their own brand. This is NOT a Buick/Chevy/Pontiac scenario by a long shot.


All the best,

Mark

[Rotten Ralph]

If the attempt fails, it may be a great bike, but it will only be a modern bike with retro tins.    Better to drop the Indian name and give the new bike its own name before the Indian head logo falls off on its own.

Back in the late 50s I worked for an Indian dealer (mostly BSA at the time). The Indian company died in 1953. Others (Clymer, AMC) tried to keep the name going by badging  Velocettes and Royal Enfields. None made it because there was no continuity. The old Indian fans wouldn't buy them and the new riders knew that they were buying a Velo or Enfield.

Many years later the Indian name was resurrected by several groups and now Polaris looks to be on top. This is not a buyout of the Indian company by another mfgr. - it is a totally new bike with the Indian name on it. Not a single bit of continuity.

Hey, I sold a good running 47 Chief a few years back for $19,000 - the same price as a new replica. Why would I want to buy an imitation if I could have the real thing for the same price.
I know- reliability, handling, electrics etc., etc. Harley and Moto Guzzi have been in business continuously for many years (regardless of who owned the company) so a retro bike from them is still a Guzzi or Harley.

I wish Polaris luck with their marketing but I still just don't get the concept. Remember the Excelsior?

[bad Chad]

Back to the base price of 19K, that seems high to me.   For 19 will it come well equipped, as in a touring form?  Or is this going be a standard cruiser?   If its decked out with a reasonable pile of good stuff, price seems fine, if not?

[leafman60]

Lol

Im always amused at the pervasive propensity of people groups to argue among themselves about obtuse points.

When Polaris purchased Indian they were buying market name recognition and a sort of "instant heritage and tradition," up to 1953 anyway.  Those factors figure prominently in marketing this sort of product.

More than just a bunch of "johnnie-come-latelies" content with the right to stick an Indian decal on a gas tank, Polaris has gone to great lengths to replicate the styling themes of the Indians produced prior to 1953.  This gives them a classic american bike design that cannot be criticized as just another imitation of a Harley-Davidson.

I think this is a good formula for success.

[leafman60]

Back to the base price of 19K, that seems high to me.   For 19 will it come well equipped, as in a touring form?  Or is this going be a standard cruiser?   If its decked out with a reasonable pile of good stuff, price seems fine, if not?

The Harley Softail Deluxe (no bags etc) starts at  $17,400

The standard Road King (with bags) starts at  $17,700

[JJ]

Polaris is a $2B+ company, so they have the financial resources to pull this off. They have done quite well with the Victory brand in the last few years. ;-T  

I believe their new Thunderstroke 111 cubic inch motor is completely new and re-designed and not a copy of the old Power-Plus ("Bottlecap") S&S V-twin of yesteryear.  $19K is a good price point to complete with HD (IMHO). 8)

It will be interesting to see the entire motorcycle in August at Sturgis. :)

[leafman60]

So has anyone actually seen this new Polarindian taht we are discussing ?

Dusty

No, they are building suspense for a Sturgis roll-out apparently.

[leafman60]

Polaris is a $2B+ company, so they have the financial resources to pull this off. They have done quite well with the Victory brand in the last few years. ;-T  

I believe their new Thunderstroke 111 cubic inch motor is completely new and re-designed and not a copy of the old Power-Plus ("Bottlecap") S&S V-twin of yesteryear.  $19K is a good price point to complete with HD (IMHO). 8)

It will be interesting to see the entire motorcycle in August at Sturgis. :)

I agree.  First time since 1953.  In fact, Polaris is better equipped than the original Indian company back then !  They folded.

[leafman60]

Regardless of what happens with Indian or Harley -   everyone can still like and ride a GUZZI too !  It's not mutually exclusive ! lol

[Kev m]

So we are all hopped up over something none of us have even gotten a look at . Yea, I'd say the marketing is working .

DID YOU NOT WATCH THE VIDEO?

We've gotten a glimpse of the silhouette and more importantly we've seen the motor and some have read articles on it. What's wrong with speculation and enthusiasm for what it looks like might be?

[Kev m]

Well I was just trying to inject some humor . Besides , thought we were a group of analytical thinkers not swayed by some slickster ad campaign .
Dusty

I thought we were analytically analyzing what little info has been released through marketing?

[ritratto]

All I can say is that it at least has a newly designed mill, not some S & S Harley clone motor. Though be sure that will be a lot of chrome.

[Andrew Thomas Evans]

Lol

Im always amused at the pervasive propensity of people groups to argue among themselves about obtuse points.

When Polaris purchased Indian they were buying market name recognition and a sort of "instant heritage and tradition," up to 1953 anyway.  Those factors figure prominently in marketing this sort of product.

More than just a bunch of "johnnie-come-latelies" content with the right to stick an Indian decal on a gas tank, Polaris has gone to great lengths to replicate the styling themes of the Indians produced prior to 1953.  This gives them a classic american bike design that cannot be criticized as just another imitation of a Harley-Davidson.

I think this is a good formula for success.

 ;-T

[boatdetective]

The buy/sell of companies and using the old name/marque is common in the watch industry also. Some do it with taste and integrity- most don't. Seems to me that this is a really sincere attempt at recreating the vibe and essence of the original product, yet using modern technology. In watches, the "new" Hamilton has done a fine job in coming out with some great designs, that are well made, for a very reasonable price. No down side as far as i can see.

I don't know anyone who doesn't give a tip of the hat to Bloor for doing a spectacular job with the modern Bonnies.  Nothing pretentious or phoney about those bikes and they are responsible for putting a sparkle in the eye of many, many folks who have gotten back into riding or are beginning riders. Of course, the V7C hits the same cords with many folks and has been a great boost to our favorite brand. Who really gives a damn what some crotchety, uptight collector thinks.

My gut feeling is that the buzz out there is not just marketing hype. There are lots of people who are genuinely excited to see this roll out. My guess is that LOTS of Harley guys will be applauding the hardest.     

[Andrew Thomas Evans]

This is why Polaris picked up the Indian brand.  Victory started from scratch and has had a tough time picking up a following of any size big enough to worry H-D.  With Indian, presto...instant name recognition.  Everybody not already under the Harley umbrella is pulling for the Chief to make a big splash and at least get H-D's feet wet.  Now I think you are going to see Polaris market Victory to even further out on the cutting edge style wise,  while marketing a very modern technology engineered yet very retro styled Indian for a more traditionalist market.  Very smart.

Well they didn't totally start from scratch. Polaris, though their other products, already has a staff on board to design and produce pretty much whatever they wanted. They also have a extensive dealer network with service (though their snowmobiles, ATV's, and watercraft) that rolling out motorcycles was just a matter of getting current dealers to sign up rather than starting from scratch. The main hurdle was introducing the new brand to the public - which they did to some success (victory as a brand is still around).

This is also why they can focus on marketing Indian right off the bat. They have the means to design and produce the bikes, the dealer network is still there, and unlike victory the public is already aware of the brand.

This is also why Guzzi is having a harder time. They don't have the network around, they IMO were lucky to be around for the past 20 years, and the public doesn't really know the brand.

[Kev m]

  ;D :BEER:
  I have to remember " analytically analyzing " and do I have your permission to use it in print ?
Dusty

one beer royalties per usage... :BEER:

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Then there's Jaguar owned by Ford.  The look is all Jaguar, but the chassis is all Ford.  Then you can take the MG design and sell it to Mazda.  They fix the electrical, put new sheet metal around it, and voila, it's a Miata.  Is it still an MG?  It still rides like one, less the gremlins.

Except Jaguar isn't owned by Ford, hasn't been for years. Now owned by Tata of India. And how was the Miata an "MG design"? Just because it was influenced by the MG and other classic roadsters, doesn't mean it was one of the old designs, far from it. It was a total clean sheet design. 

[wheaties]

Except Jaguar isn't owned by Ford, hasn't been for years. Now owned by Tata of India. And how was the Miata an "MG design"? Just because it was influenced by the MG and other classic roadsters, doesn't mean it was one of the old designs, far from it. It was a total clean sheet design. 

Well, thanks for the correction.  I recall reading that Mazda bought the MG design, then went through it, and modernized the electrical and sheet metal.  But if that's incorrect, then I'm wrong.

Matt

[Eric Plante]

[/quote]

OMG! This looks like a parade motorcycle from a circus. I would not even been cought dead on one of these!

[rocker59]

OMG! This looks like a parade motorcycle from a circus. I would not even been cought dead on one of these!

.

That's  an old stock CMC Indian.  The ones with the HD 4-speed frame and S&S Evo engine. 

[tazio]

Wheaties , brilliantly put . I am exiting this thread , at least for a while because it is so hard to convey my mixed feelings on this badge engineering . Guys ,I see the other side of the argument even if I am not convinced of it's veracity .
Dusty

ALWAYS enjoy your imputs!, ALL opinions welcomed here!
I do a lot of sitting back and just reading all peoples comments, especially the more passionately expressed ones.
I love old bikes and their history but, for me, I still seem to express what my heart believes 60/40 over what my head knows! :BEER:
Rock On Mr. Dusty!!!
  

[Kev m]

The ones with the HD 4-speed frame and S&S Evo engine. 

4-speed frame?    ???

Not sure about motor. I guess that's something the last owners were doing.

My bud's Gilroy Chief has an S&S motor that doesn't look like that...looks shorter like a typical EVO.

[rocker59]

4-speed frame?    ???

Not sure about motor. I guess that's something the last owners were doing.

My bud's Gilroy Chief has an S&S motor that doesn't look like that...looks shorter like a typical EVO.

"Power Plus" engine had the "bottle cap" valve covers.  Still an S&S engine.

"4-speed frame" refers to the style of the frame.  Styled like the old HD 4-speed FL frames.

All that stuff is out of a Custom Chrome catalog.

The CMC Indians were laughable!

[Nick]

Harley and Moto Guzzi have been in business continuously for many years (regardless of who owned the company) so a retro bike from them is still a Guzzi or Harley.

I wish Polaris luck with their marketing but I still just don't get the concept.

Amen!

[Kev m]

"Power Plus" engine had the "bottle cap" valve covers.  Still an S&S engine.

I thought it was "more different" from an EVO though - as oppossed to the S&S EVO motors the Gilroy Indians used.

Here's my bud's... at the Heath Guzzi/BMW Damn-Yankee thing...

"4-speed frame" refers to the style of the frame.  Styled like the old HD 4-speed FL frames.

Ah, never heard it referred to that way before.

FWIW, the Gilroy Indians basically were using a copy of a Harley Softail frame, many parts were interchangeable between the chassis and motor on my bud's bike.

The later ones (the real boutique priced ones) used a lot of high end components - like Baker 6-speeds and decent brakes etc which was nice, but certainly not enough to command the boutique prices.