Author Topic: Classy!  (Read 16982 times)

Vasco DG

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Classy!
« on: February 02, 2015, 09:58:58 AM »
A few years ago I designed and manufactured a baffle plate for the V11 series bikes, they have been a slow and steady seller and I didn't make a lot of money on them but they did prevent the motors torching their big ends.

Well I got an enquiry about one from New Zealand a few days ago so I organized the gaskets and plate and gave the bloke a quote only to be told that he had decided to buy from a mob in the UK because they were a few dollars cheaper. A quick visit to their website reveals that 'Their' plate is in fact an identical copy of mine, even down to the shape of the dipstick hole. I don't even get a Guernsey for the design. I wonder if I could sue them for theft of intellectual property?

This sort of shit really doesn't make a bloke feel like giving out help and advice.....

Pete

Offline LowRyter

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2015, 10:06:44 AM »
what a freakin' rip off.   :-[
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Offline DC950

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2015, 10:08:59 AM »
it never ceases to amaze me how much of a tightwad the average Guzzi guy is. 

Want to make copper wire?  Throw a penny between two Guzzi guys  :)
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Offline john fish

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2015, 10:18:34 AM »
That reminds me. I need one of your plates, Pete. What's the best way to go about it?  PM or email?
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Re: Classy!
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2015, 10:18:34 AM »

Vasco DG

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2015, 10:23:06 AM »
PM me John.

Pete

Offline lucian

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2015, 10:24:17 AM »
Low blow for sure , but I do believe that in life you get back what you put out there, x ten. That being the case, I would say that they are in for a whole pile of shit. Just a matter of time. Nothing better than a payback that someone else provides for you, free of charge.

Offline segesta

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2015, 10:29:33 AM »
it never ceases to amaze me how much of a tightwad the average Guzzi guy is. 


Hey, I recently spent fifteen grand on a California 1400 that today is worth maybe $9000. I'd claim we are a profligate lot.
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Offline steamdriven NZ

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2015, 02:01:59 PM »
PM all us Kiwis so we know who to avoid!
I hope the freight turns out to make it dearer for him than buying (almost) local.

Sheesh.
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Online Perazzimx14

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2015, 02:04:56 PM »
Suing a person and/or business can be hard enough if they are local. I imagine the difficulty level goes up exponentially when they are on a different continent.

Unfortunately even if you won you'd probably loose.

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Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2015, 02:24:38 PM »
that sucks.. maybe one of our UK members could go throw a brick thru their window..
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Vasco DG

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2015, 02:43:11 PM »
I certainly don't want retribution! God alone knows there is enough madness in the world currently without me adding to it. I just think it's a particularly low act which once again deprives me of more faith in my fellow man.

Pete

Offline Daniel Kalal

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2015, 02:50:36 PM »
I'm guessing that if gutsibits.co.uk were giving the plates away with the laudable goal of ensuring the reliability of the motors and safety of the U.K. riders with no self-motive, Pete would be fine with it.  But, to turn a profit on Pete's efforts is beyond...

Offline cruzziguzzi

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2015, 02:54:11 PM »
Seems like one of the base EU mandates should be a protection against this or at least a foil for your use... recognizing the NZ non-EU status and all.
Patent
Trade Mark
Copyright
Intelectual Property
Manufacturing Precedent

Something....

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Offline Lannis

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2015, 03:00:25 PM »
I certainly don't want retribution! God alone knows there is enough madness in the world currently without me adding to it. I just think it's a particularly low act which once again deprives me of more faith in my fellow man.

Pete

Well, I would think that the first thing to do in this situation would be to talk to them.   Just say "Guys, this looks like the windage plate I designed and sell down here in your former colony.   I see that you're selling it now and it doesn't appear I'm getting credit for my original work.   Can we talk about that?"

and see what they say.   They MAY just say "Bugger Off", in which case all of us who care should do what we can do to make them hurt with the same kind of money you're losing on sales there.   It's not "madness" or "retribution" to ask for what's legally yours, and have sanctions against those who want to steal that from you .... ?

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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2015, 03:04:40 PM »
Ethics 101 apparently isn't a popular class in business school any more. That said, what they are doing isn't "illegal". The only power we have as Guzzi enthusiasts is to vote with our wallets and boycott them if they tell you to bugger off..
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Offline Groover

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2015, 03:24:24 PM »
I hope you get this solved or at least to get some credit towards your design. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) that why patents and registered trademarks and such exist. Not sure how it works across countries, but I think there are international copyrights you could apply for. If it's something worth the chase, I believe you can still register as long as you have dated records and such. I think it's pretty complicated to do it that way though. Check with Library of Congress, I think they may be able to answer some questions in that regards.

I would do what Lannis suggested as a starting point.

Good luck.
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2015, 03:33:49 PM »
Trust me, it's prohibitively expensive to get a patent. For something that brings in beer money like this it's not even feasible. Even if you do, there are companies that couldn't care less, and will happily rip it off. Then, you have to defend your patent. That's expensive, too. Ed the Rocket Scientist has been through this many times.
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2015, 03:35:17 PM »
Ethics 101 apparently isn't a popular class in business school any more. That said, what they are doing isn't "illegal". The only power we have as Guzzi enthusiasts is to vote with our wallets and boycott them if they tell you to bugger off..

Yes. I should have said "what is ETHICALLY yours" .....

Lannis
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Offline Waterbottle

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2015, 03:54:29 PM »
Ethics 101 apparently isn't a popular class in business school any more. That said, what they are doing isn't "illegal". The only power we have as Guzzi enthusiasts is to vote with our wallets and boycott them if they tell you to bugger off..

Some people were never taught ethics at home.
If he has purchased the plate locally it might have been to keep local suppliers on side ?
The A-wipes were dealing with here are the ones who have stolen Pete's idea and hard work, this sort of development doesn't happen in a few minutes, or days even.
Personally, I would feel they had invaded my home ....... Grubs !
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Offline rtbickel

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2015, 04:10:10 PM »
As they say,  what goes around comes around and they will likely get theirs in the form of the Guzzi mafia's knowledge of their douchebaggery.   Pete's generosity with his time and advice on this board is a beautiful thing.  As my little old Jewish neighbor lady used to say, a good mensch is hard to find.
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2015, 04:15:26 PM »
In the US, I believe that once something has been in the general public for one year, it's considered public domain, and anyone can make it and/or sell it.  If I ever need one of these, I'll get it from Pete.
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sgtstinky

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2015, 04:42:13 PM »
Contact them, inform them of your position, and let them know about this public thread and see what they say. Post their response and let the chips fall where they may.

Morizzi

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2015, 07:41:35 PM »
Interesting Pete. First time I've seen one in a picture. To me and my marine engineering background and the terminology used its a windage plate not a baffle plate.  :BEER:

Small blocks have them cast into the engine design.  ;-T

The marine engines often have baffle plates. These primarily have vertical plates that stop the oil from swilling around the sump due to rolling and pitching. A lot depends on the shape of the sump but as many of the engines I'm familiar with are inline pistons the sump is usually longer than it is wide so there will be a vertical plate that partly obstructs the sump to delay the oil flow and thus destroy its rhythm. This will be left to right across the sump. Pick ups are usually pretty close to centre to minimise oil level fluctuation too. I have seen pick up lines supported onto these and if the baffle cracks or breaks oil starvation won't be far behind as the oil lines flexes to destruction.

Maybe you could modify yours to be the 'new improved model.' It would just take a 3 sided cut and a fold to do or an 90 angle piece bolted/riveted to the underneath.

I wonder who actually manufactures them?  ??? I now know who sells them besides you.

Rod
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 07:45:56 PM by Yak Fat »

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2015, 08:24:36 PM »
I need one as well. PM coming.
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hammick

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2015, 08:32:28 PM »
Hey, I recently spent fifteen grand on a California 1400 that today is worth maybe $9000. I'd claim we are a profligate lot.

Surely our bikes are worth a fair bit more than 9k.

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2015, 08:40:24 PM »
Not sure who owns windage tray intellectual property, Irving mentions windage in Tuning for Speed.
Personally, I used Bell's book 4 stroke tuning, theory and practise to design and make my Guzzi system in 1986, after seeing Wittner's give away 3 bolts on crankcase.
But much earlier than that Italians were selling plate only that bolted to 4 lugs on ALL sump extenders (maybe 76 on ?)


I'm sure google could find out but I'm guessing it's all well pre war in design, definitely 70's for Guzzi application.

try here for examples of copying/ adapting etc
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=windage+tray&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=oDPQVMiEMMLm8AXC0IHICg&ved=0CAUQ_AU

Brilliant invention for sure but designer is lost in history, never got paid AFAIK.


Offline krglorioso

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2015, 09:52:31 PM »
In the US, I believe that once something has been in the general public for one year, it's considered public domain, and anyone can make it and/or sell it.  If I ever need one of these, I'll get it from Pete.

I believe a patent protects the inventor's rights for 17 years in the USA.  A "patent pending" gives a measure of protection, but I'm uncertain how long one has to actually receive a patent before the "patent pending" protection ceases. 

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Offline Robert

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2015, 10:04:55 PM »
In this case, I would try to approach from a Copyright perspective.

The exact shape of the object can be Copyrighted.  It is Copyrighted because it was produced by the 'author'.  It does not have to have been 'registered or files', but must have some kind of proof of time of creation.

But then, an inconsequensial  shape change could be a new product.  How much change needed?  (Compare to song writers accused of copying.)

What I remember from Copyright class, rules for USA.

But is it worth time, cost, lawyers, etc.?  Probably not.  And you have to develop a nasty attitude to pursue and follow through this action.



Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2015, 10:26:28 PM »
Chuck is right. I've looked into patents and realized unless you're dealing with absolutes it isn't worth it. Change one thickness/hole size the slightest bit and its not the same. Cue the lawyers... now they can sway a jury otherwise if you have VERY deep pockets. It's not as much about the patent as it is the lawyers.
I think it's extremely low for someone to do this. I would never buy anything from these folks knowing this. Please enlighten us on who it is if you would.
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Classy!
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2015, 10:59:09 PM »
I believe a patent protects the inventor's rights for 17 years in the USA.  A "patent pending" gives a measure of protection, but I'm uncertain how long one has to actually receive a patent before the "patent pending" protection ceases.  

Ralph

"Patent Pending" is good as long as the process of applying for and getting or not getting the patent takes.  You have to apply for the patent to use the term "Patent Pending", and its effectiveness is dependent on how scared it makes the entity that wants to sell the item in question, since it means nothing in itself.  As far as I can tell, Pete did not apply for a patent.  Once he lets the design out to the public, the "public domain" clock starts ticking, per USA rules.  I don't claim to know the rules of any other country.

The 17 years isn't as simple as it used to be, because you now have to pay a couple maintenance fees along the way to keep the patent in effect, and the fees aren't insignificant.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 11:02:10 PM by Triple Jim »
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