Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.

[ITSec]

I'm puzzled why so many posts appear to personalize or be taken personally. It's perfectly understandable that people affected by (or at some unknown future risk of) such problems are frustrated, upset and angry, but so far I haven't seen a member of the Piaggio design team or accounting team show up in the threads on this and related subjects. If there were, perhaps the venting could be directed to them.

Based on what I've read, if I had a flat tappet 8V, I would probably ride it till it had between 8-10,000 on it. From all the evidence, that should be far enough that wear could definitely be seen, but unlikely to be so far as to cause failure and subsequent additional damage. I would plan on paying for an oil analysis if mayo is not already clearly evident. I would work with my dealer before the tear-down to set expectations and define clearly (even if they already should know) what needs to be examined and what previous experience has shown. I might try to negotiate a strategy with the dealer to pay a certain amount (perhaps his cost) for work and parts if Piaggio balks at full warranty coverage - and that might get them on my side as the negotiation with the mother corp plays out.

A lot of this is easy for me to say since I have a 2V bike - but it's the same approach that got me a complete transmission rebuild when the throw-out bearing in my Subaru unexpectedly and spectacularly failed, damaging the case and many of the parts it contained. That happened about 3 months after the warranty ended, but the company ended up covering it.

[Lannis]

I'm puzzled why so many posts appear to personalize or be taken personally. It's perfectly understandable that people affected by (or at some unknown future risk of) such problems are frustrated, upset and angry, but so far I haven't seen a member of the Piaggio design team or accounting team show up in the threads on this and related subjects. If there were, perhaps the venting could be directed to them.

Any venting I've done about flat tappets is and has been directed at whoever at Moto Guzzi forgot how to build a valve train while they were inventing an engine computer.   That's all.   

Now, if someone says, on the subject of early, expensive engine failures, "You should expect that sort of thing, it's part of the game of owning a modern touring motorcycle, and if you can't handle it you should quit whining and get out of the game", I may offer a counter opinion to THAT sentiment, since that is NOT a technical matter of fact being reported by an engine expert (which I appreciate), but is a totally emotional opinion being offered by someone who has imbibed more Moto Guzzi Brand Kool Aid than I have.   And MY opinion on THAT subject (of owner suitability) is just as good and just as valid as anyone's .....

Lannis

[BRIO]

It wouldn't be right if there wasn't a self grenading couple of model years to avoid. I suppose we've found the chrome bores of the 2010's

[pebra]

Oh well, I had hoped I would have been lucky and avoided having to rollerise my 2009 Griso 8V, now only 11,000 km.
Thanks for the warning Pete, I will have this looked into this winter or next.

Might not be expertise for sorting out and rollerising around here, so I suppose I might have to take the bike to Germany.
I guess a discussion with the Norwegian importer would be in order, although I'm not optimistic about getting any sorts of financial support from Guzzi.

Meanwhile I'm enjoying the old big block Guzzi. This season she's actually got lots more km than the Griso!
(Not that I think there is any need for sparing the Griso at this stage)

[Vasco DG]

Any venting I've done about flat tappets is and has been directed at whoever at Moto Guzzi forgot how to build a valve train while they were inventing an engine computer.   That's all.   

Now, if someone says, on the subject of early, expensive engine failures, "You should expect that sort of thing, it's part of the game of owning a modern touring motorcycle, and if you can't handle it you should quit whining and get out of the game", I may offer a counter opinion to THAT sentiment, since that is NOT a technical matter of fact being reported by an engine expert (which I appreciate), but is a totally emotional opinion being offered by someone who has imbibed more Moto Guzzi Brand Kool Aid than I have.   And MY opinion on THAT subject (of owner suitability) is just as good and just as valid as anyone's .....

Lannis

I'm not, and never have said that Lannis. In fact if you care to read my earlier comments in the rollerisation thread I actually said that I thought the way the problem was being handled sucked big-time. The thing is though that no amount of complaining is going to change the way the issue is going to be tackled by Piaggio and the answer seems to be to attack the messenger when all he is trying to do is offer what he believes is the best way to go about getting the best outcome possible under those circumstances.

If people don't like the 8V for whatever reason, that's fine but its reliability issues seem to of been addressed and to some of us at least it is an addictive and joyous device that although none of us are happy about being made the 'Bunny' we're willing to grit our teeth and get on with it to continue to enjoy what it offers.

[Lannis]

I'm not, and never have said that Lannis. In fact if you care to read my earlier comments in the rollerisation thread I actually said that I thought the way the problem was being handled sucked big-time. The thing is though that no amount of complaining is going to change the way the issue is going to be tackled by Piaggio and the answer seems to be to attack the messenger when all he is trying to do is offer what he believes is the best way to go about getting the best outcome possible under those circumstances.

If people don't like the 8V for whatever reason, that's fine but its reliability issues seem to of been addressed and to some of us at least it is an addictive and joyous device that although none of us are happy about being made the 'Bunny' we're willing to grit our teeth and get on with it to continue to enjoy what it offers.

All true.   Next valve clearance check, 40,500 miles .....

Lannis

[Vasco DG]

As ITsec has said above regarding the problem that is how, with hindsight, I would of handled the issue. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

The strange thing is that there was that run of early 2V Norges with the duff oil pump. Now when they went west it was enough to kill the whole engine pretty much instantly but I can't remember anybody baying for blood or claiming the engine was a POS?

Then there is the issue with pre gen-2 smallblock 750's, (Brevas, Classics etc.) suddenly vanishing all their engine oil into some sort of fifth dimension and running their big ends and mains! Nobody cries foul on the whole engine for that or condemns smallblocks out of hand.

It just seems that for some hating on the 8V is done more out of blind prejudice and a dislike of change than any problems it may have, real or perceived.

Pete

[swmckinley54]

Some of us obviously just have too much of the "Northern Hemisphere Needy Whiner" in us to appreciate the overall New Moto Guzzi Riding Experience.     Best to just suck it up and keep on shucking out the spare change ...   

Lannis

You can suck it up and keep shucking out the spare change, me, not so much. I am trading her in on a more proven design.

[BNG08]

Just to double check - is it an reasonable to say that 8V motors with rollers should be fine.  I know there is no guarantee but the roller setup, either form the factory or retro-fit, is the 'best fix' so far and hopefully the cure.

Is this correct or am I missing something?

[Vasco DG]

As I've pointed out numerous times the roller system has been used since the first Cali 14's and on all the 1200's since mid 2012. I haven't heard of a failure yet.

Pete

[Kev m]

Pete,

Are you sure that's not revisionist history regarding the early CARC pump failures, or the mysterious smallblock grenades?

I seem to recall weeping and gnashing of teeth then too.

Of course in those cases it was a mysterious/unexplainable couple of cases.

This seems to me a case now of not if but when, and then changes the simile.

[beetle]

Come on pete, two years ago there was no problem because bikes you had serviced didn't have a problem, and now Beetle has it, you tell all bikes are going to fail.   

To be fair Paul, Pete knows the history of my bike. He knows I don't commute on it and when I do ride it, I ride it hard and get the engine nice and hot. The early evidence (whether it be anecdotal or not) seemed to indicate that cold climate bikes used for commuting were that likeliest to have a failure. If any 8V was unlikely to fail, mine was it.

[Vasco DG]

And I still maintain that climate, use and servicing will play a major role in the longevity of the DLC coating. If, as seems inevitable (and I am, as I keep repeating, willing to accept I was wrong.) failure occurs it should be remembered that the location, frequency and nature of the failures is something that I have been following and documented ever since the 8V was launched. Why? Because it really interested me and it still does. Those three factors are the overriding common denominators in the systematic failure of the tappets and the evidence remains strong that my causal analysis was right, just not completely right.

Pete

[Green1]

How do you know when a bike was built,i has a 13 Stelvio NTX but don't see a build date on the frame

[drw916]

I guess this kind of sucks, but in the big scope of things I just get it fixed and keep on trucking.  A few hours of labor really won't kill me.  Heck, I lost $1000 when I hit a deer on my Griso, and compounded it by buying a BMW RNineT and selling it for $4000 less than I owed 8 months later cause I didn't like it.

Well, I like the Stelvio.  It is worth the expense, and still much cheaper than dumping it and buying a new bike with different problems.

My biggest concern is a mechanic who knows what to look for.

Hey Pete, ever been to Spokane in the Winter?

[Vasco DG]

In Oz it's on the compliance plate I believe. Although that may be more related to despatch from factory.

If you want to know if your bike is roller or flat as I keep suggesting just lift a rocker cover and look.

Pete

[kevdog3019]

It wouldn't be right if there wasn't a self grenading couple of model years to avoid. I suppose we've found the chrome bores 8 valves of the 2010's'80's

fixed it for you. 

[canuguzzi]

We can likely expect to see a lot of 8Vs up for sale in the future as this info makes the rounds. Unfortunately, this is unlikely to be limited to flat tappet bikes and maybe evidenced by support vans following 8V riders on trips longer than the local 7-11.

Too bad it seems that MG can't see what is sure to happen next but then clowns rarely look in mirrors and laugh. MG should probably be happy it doesn't sell as many as some other brands but then if you treat customers like they are 5th rate, that probably has something to do with sales being on the same scale. Rather shameful.

Now, what happens next does matter. Sure, owners can suck it up and compare this to something that happened on a BMW.

Yeah, it might take longer to get to the valves on  suzukayamda but the owners aren't buying self destructing engines anymore, that was 1980s folks, this is long after that. They also don't check valves every time they take a long weekend ride either.

If all this continues to pan out, MG will be forced to do something and the sucking sound won't be coming from the wallets of owners, at least not in the USA.

This is brand damaging stuff. There are only so many people who want to suck it up, especially henceforth since the info is out and MG really can't claim ignorance of the matter.

Kudos to Pete for offering info on his experiences and proposed remedies. This info will help everyone who either has an 8V or contemplates owning one. Some will pay for the inspection but reality says many will not and simply get something else. Since this isn't the valves on the wheels with the problem, I'd be more than mildly surprised if sales weren't affected shortly.

While engines after a certain date haven't yet shown evidence of the problem, "yet" becomes a pretty important qualifier, usually followed by suck it up. It's one thing to be the sucker, quite another to be both sucker and suckee. This might become an expensive lesson for MG as any claims they didn't know would probably fall on deaf ears, just a matter of time now.

[jlburgess]

Is the roller kit no longer screw and locknut adjustable?  What's the post about shims for the roller?
And no my bike isn't for sale.  Too happy with it 

[Vasco DG]

John, if you go and look at the rollerisation thread it's explained but the shims are added under the valve springs of the inlet valves on early motors to increase the seating poundage slightly to deter valve float.

As for new sales being affected? Why? The roller system has been in operation for three/four years now with no related problems. I can understand people being unhappy who own flat tappet bikes, especially those built after the middle of 2010 but to simply continue to throw the baby out with the bath water is plain stupid, the roller system works, there have to be at least a handful of fairly high mileage ones out there by now.

Pete

[1Sourdough]

Triumph made deck chairs...?

Not the chairs, just the reclining mechanisms.  Finally got the design right so they didn't break when passengers tilted back to take a nap.

[JoeW]

In the 1980s Mercedes Benz replace thousands of camshafts on all their OHC  motors, gas and diesel. About the same time GM was pulling cams with round lobes out of heir V8s. Harley had issues, Honda too, as mentioned. It could be poor maintenance, improper hardening, or an engineering issue. Pete is giving fair warning and priceless information. All cams may not fail for reasons that can't be explained. Have your bike inspected, if you don't have an issue, try higher quality oil and be diligent with your oil change intervals. Before you bad mouth Guzzi for inferior machines remember, BMW motorcycles have the highest number of warranty claims here in the US.

[canuguzzi]

I see the confusion in the last paragraph of my previous post, thank you phone.

My meaning was that in the USA, being host to a litigious population, no doubt, as this makes the rounds, someone will do more than pay for an inspection, they will seek recovery of the monies spent and bit stop there.

As for sales of new, while it is possible to put out these types of problems, they have a way of carrying over. The flat tappet issue while perhaps not new, has taken a bit of time to manifest itself to the degree now know. It happens quite often in other manufacturing usually followed by the discontinuation of a model type. American car makes went through it and still go down that road. I am not saying that MG would discontinue anything but I have little doubt someone right now is deciding that no one should have to pay for an inspection or any parts or labor to fix the problem.

That it might take years for the problem to surface means little because how many people are going to buy a used flat tappet bike unless it has been fixed and who out there is really going to do it? 

When it becomes easier to buy something else other than something with a known problem, sales suffer. BMW did recognize that and their response to the suspension issue is a good example of why people still buy them in large numbers. MG doesn't sell like BMW but there is a reason for that too.

It is one thing to say a problem was fixed, quite another to say we fixed it and also took care of our customers. Two very different things. Anyone can fix a problem on the customers dime.

[Lannis]

I guess this kind of sucks, but in the big scope of things I just get it fixed and keep on trucking.  A few hours of labor really won't kill me.  Heck, I lost $1000 when I hit a deer on my Griso, and compounded it by buying a BMW RNineT and selling it for $4000 less than I owed 8 months later cause I didn't like it.

Well, I like the Stelvio.  It is worth the expense, and still much cheaper than dumping it and buying a new bike with different problems.

My biggest concern is a mechanic who knows what to look for.

Good points about the "another bike" solution (depreciation, possible problems, etc) probably being more expensive in dollars than just fixing the Stelvio.    It must be a matter of principle, then .... 

Lannis

[Wayne Orwig]

Before you bad mouth Guzzi for inferior machines remember, BMW motorcycles have the highest number of warranty claims here in the US.

So on the way to work yesterday, I was sitting at a long red light, thinking about my failed valve tappets on my Stelvio. I started to think about switching to BMW, or Honda, or later as I road past Frazier's Harley Davidson, maybe.......
But then I realized that HD does not have a model that I want. BWM does NOT have a good record of customer support, and neither does Honda. The grass is NOT green over there.
So, I continued to enjoy the nice ride in to work on my EV. I really like the EV.

[Vasco DG]

Good points about the "another bike" solution (depreciation, possible problems, etc) probably being more expensive in dollars than just fixing the Stelvio.    It must be a matter of principle, then .... 

Lannis

And I have no problem with that at all.

Before everyone starts screaming at their dealers though remember that Warranty pays nothing and you only get reimbursed a fraction of the time and effort that goes into the work. In Oz you don't get paid at all. All you get is a credit against your parts account.

Pete

[Vasco DG]

Yeah. Wow! Perhaps you'll understand why people get really short shrift if they come into my shop yelling and poking me in the chest, (Yes, that has happened!) and telling me I have to fix their horrible broken shitter for nothing and 'Sort it out with the importer'. The ones that do that are invariably the ones that bought the bike elsewhere because it was 'Cheaper' than I could provide it but expect me to take it up the arse and do all the work, usually caused by the incompetence of the 'Box Shop' *Mechanics* or their own fiddling, when it all falls in a screaming heap.

Treat me right and I'll try and move heaven and earth to get a good outcome. Give me crap and oddly enough you'll find me *Busy* until long after hell has frozen over!

Pete

[molly]

18 months ago my local long established Guzzi dealer here in the U.K. told me that the 8v flat tappet motor was seriously flawed and he was 'fiddling' warranty claims so that even healthy motors were getting rollerised. He was doing the work for a nominal fee to keep his customers from leaving the brand.
At the time I was thinking of buying a new old stock 1200 Sport and part of the deal was that I rode it round the block and the warranty claim was put in for the rollers. I was very tempted but just couldn't get my head around the concept of repairing a brand new bike so left the deal on the table.

I have no problems with the repair to the flat tappet motors which I'm sure is now sorted but the way Piaggio handled it was lamentable. Unlike Honda who had plenty of other engines on the market when they had cam problems the Guzzi 8v motor was a big part of the model range and after the 1200 2v motors owners moved on to 8v's thinking Guzzi was on the way back to main stream popularity. The whole 8v debacle has done great damage to the brands reputation here in the U.K. I hope the cost saving mean spirited response was worth it for the company but it's reputation might take a while to recover.

Let's face it Guzzi knew full well there  was a problem from the earliest failures. If they didn't their  engineering expertise must be seriously questioned. They left owners with bikes that would inevitably fail at some stage and took the head in the sand approach. They are not the only ones playing this game but it still stinks.

[Rough Edge racing]

 On the Guzzi, exactly what parts are changed and what would be the total cost if the bike owner paid out of pocket?

  In the car world flat tappet refers to older push rod engines. The tappets or lifters as we call them are not flat but have a very slightly domed surface.In addition the cam lobes have a slight taper and the lifter center line is offset a touch to the side from the cam lobe. This engineering creates a spin to the lifter and push rod to even out wear...

 As Lannis mentioned the old British twins don't normally have tappet problems. The general design is a tappet with a radius face that is not free to rotate. And on the BSA the cam is well lubricated by oil thrown off the flywheel. Old Triumph twins have a dual cams and the forward cam/tappets can be a wear issue with more aggressive lobe profiles.

[Vasco DG]

Please excuse me if I don't cover the same ground again, (And again, and again.) but the tappets spin but do so by a very slight radius of the cam lobe rather than the tappet. Why? I have no idea. Perhaps something to do with he application of the DLC.

Sorry, this stuff has been considered. Long time. Not that I'm not thankful for the input.

Pete