Author Topic: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?  (Read 18132 times)

Online Wayne Orwig

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2016, 03:16:39 PM »
Have you inspected the solenoid to make sure it is not too tight?
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Offline donn

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2016, 03:55:59 PM »
I sure haven't.  I surmise that there's a sort of piston in there, and if it's a tight fit in its sleeve, thermal expansion / contraction could cause it to bind up or something?

Offline charlie b

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2016, 05:18:38 PM »
Yep, that's what mine would do.  Put in a new relay and it would work great for a few weeks.  Then it would start the 'no start' routine again.  Once I got a "starter" relay instead of one of those generic 30A jobs the problem has gone away.  Now I know why, 40A time after time will kill a 30A relay.
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2016, 03:33:22 AM »

But the circumstances point to the real cause of the problem.  Sure, the switch circuit has kind of low voltage.  But day after day it works fine, in all kinds of weather, with the battery run down so low it will barely turn over, continues to work fine.  Then one day you get it real hot, cool it down for a few minutes, and click.  OK!  The source of the problem wasn't the voltage, was it?
 
I don't know, did you measure it?
Sounds like lack of Voltage across the solenoid coil to me but what do I know?
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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2016, 03:33:22 AM »

Offline tris

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2016, 07:05:54 AM »
Looking at the results so far I say that statistically - no one knows  :grin:

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Offline Huzo

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2016, 12:42:13 PM »
Looking at the results so far I say that statistically - no one knows  :grin:

I'll get my coat
Well said Tris, you do get that feeling sometimes, only thing I'd like to add to that mate, is that when you ask, you're bound to admit that you're somewhat in the dark also and people are doing their best to help.

Offline tris

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2016, 01:11:06 PM »
Completely agree and one of the 1st things I did when I got the Breva was the Startus-Interuptus fix.
Problem with that is that is if I don't ever have an issue was it because my bike didn't succumb to the problem or whether the fix ........ fixed it
I'm still respectful of the people on this forum who share their knowledge so willingly  :bow: :bow:

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Offline charlie b

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2016, 01:28:09 PM »
Yep, if you fix it ahead of time you'll never know if you would have had the problem.  But, if the Guzzi relay is on the weak side, ie, rated at 30A, then it may start to fail on you in the future.  It may take a while as my factory relay lasted to the 70k mile point :)  It was the aftermarket automotive relays that didn't last long.

Basically, if you have the problem then 1) rewire so the relay gets power directly from a fused 12V source.  2) If the problem continues get a new relay.  3)  If you still have a problem when it is warm, then relocate the relay to a cooler location and replace it. 

Again, if it is the relay or current capacity through the circuit/relay, then you can check it by hotwiring the solenoid.  If hotwiring works then it is a relay/current issue, not a solenoid/battery issue.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 01:33:33 PM by charlie b »
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2016, 02:00:19 PM »
I think the cause of Startus Interuptus is this.
The factory engineers measured the current drawn by the solenoid and found it to be around 10 Amps, this is what you will see if you hook a digital meter in series with the trigger terminal because the meter is far too slow to record the inrush current (more like 45 Amps for about 0.1 seconds).
Using the value 10 Amps it seems reasonable to feed the start relay through the ignition switch and a 15 Amp fuse.
I honestly believe if they were aware of the high inrush current they wouldn't think of doing that, it doesn't make sense.

When the bike is new and the contacts are pristine they can take the inrush but as they age a bit the resistance builds up to a point where they fail.
I doubt the engineer ever gets any feedback so he caries on making the same mistake on model after model.

All the fix does is bypass the switch contacts and a bunch of wire, the logic stays the same because with the key Off there is no supply to the start button, this is very important with children around, they like to push buttons.

BTW the Omrons I buy are rated 100 Amp inrush, specs may vary.
http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/en-g8hn.pdf
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 06:16:02 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Huzo

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2016, 06:43:27 PM »

No, no, no, it is not a bit over 10........METERS.



 :boozing:
That'd be METRES .

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2016, 06:47:22 PM »
 Truth is , Startus Interuptus is caused by excessive wheel offset  :evil:

 Dusty

Offline RANDM

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2016, 06:55:04 PM »
Truth is , Startus Interuptus is caused by excessive wheel offset  :evil:

 Dusty

There you go ………… no problemo.

Offline Huzo

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2016, 07:07:03 PM »
Truth is , Startus Interuptus is caused by excessive wheel offset  :evil:

 Dusty
Now now Dusty, I can't see if you're smiling so I'll presume that you are, it'll work out better that way. I'll leave the other thing alone until someone (and it won't be me ) manages to come up with the REAL reason, I've come to realise I'll be waiting a while......

Offline Huzo

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2016, 07:14:01 PM »
There you go ���� no problemo.
There never was a problem Randy, but somewhere there's an answer. BTW, is Arthur's seat chairlift going ?

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2016, 10:25:19 PM »
One thing you guys who claim it's the solenoid sticking haven't considered
The starting circuit fuse is typically 15 Amps
The solenoid will pull 45 Amps
If it's just stuck why doesn't the fuse blow?

I tell you it's not getting enough Voltage to pull the current it wants.
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Offline Sasquatch Jim

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #75 on: April 26, 2016, 12:31:18 AM »
  Just use the kick starter.   Older Guzzis had them, why ever did Guido think they might not be wanted?
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Offline tris

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #76 on: April 26, 2016, 01:19:48 AM »
........When the bike is new and the contacts are pristine they can take the inrush but as they age a bit the resistance builds up a bit, that's when they fail.
I doubt the engineer ever gets any feedback so he caries on making the same mistake on model after model........

And that Roy is quite likely to be the key issue

Probably at new the OEM circuit capability is only a touch over marginal and as time, wear and corrosion kick in drops through the threshold into failure

So a lack of feedback (which is surprising given how long this issue has been about) and a lack of knowledge/experience in the Design Team means that nothing gets changed

Its a shame
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Online Wayne Orwig

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #77 on: April 26, 2016, 09:05:37 AM »
One thing you guys who claim it's the solenoid sticking haven't considered
The starting circuit fuse is typically 15 Amps
The solenoid will pull 45 Amps
If it's just stuck why doesn't the fuse blow?

I tell you it's not getting enough Voltage to pull the current it wants.

In the stuck solenoids I worked on, the fuse DID blow after a second.
Good point on the others. No fuse blowing, likely not a sticking solenoid.
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Offline donn

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #78 on: April 26, 2016, 09:56:06 AM »
Probably at new the OEM circuit capability is only a touch over marginal and as time, wear and corrosion kick in drops through the threshold into failure

So eventually, your motorcycle won't start until you do something about it.  Dang Italians and their crummy electronics!

That makes sense, if that's what happens.  Though for the one person whose failure mode was like that, it was apparently relays that failed because they were light duty stuff from the auto parts store.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 09:58:02 AM by donn »

Offline charlie b

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #79 on: April 26, 2016, 10:34:35 AM »
Relays will eventually fail, sooner if the current is near or over their contact capacity.

Each time you activate a mechanical relay, there will be a slight wearing of the contacts.  Over time this will get to the point that the contacts are no longer 'flat'.  This means the area actually conducting the current is smaller, making the problem worse, until...there is enough resistance so the relay does not flow enough current to do the intended job.  Then, you buy a new relay.

This is part of what the 'startus interuptus' is.  The circuit provided by MG is marginal at providing current to the relay in the first place.  Then the relay is faced with larger currents, which means faster wear and more resistance and more current until it no longer works every time.

So, again, fix 1 is to provide a better current flow to the relay.  Fix 2 is to put a decent relay in there.  I added a fix 3 and relocated the relay to a "cooler" position on the bike.

There is a known issue and a known fix.  What else is there?

PS you should also know that every wiring connection on the bike also deteriorates over time, especially if you are in an area where corrosion is an issue. 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 10:37:11 AM by charlie b »
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Offline donn

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #80 on: April 26, 2016, 11:29:06 AM »
Not to beat this into the ground, but ... with all that old wiring, my motorcycle started fine all the time, except in one situation.

With all that deterioration, the wiring was still providing plenty of juice to get the solenoid going, every day, after sitting around for weeks, whatever.  The stock wiring and stock relay worked fine.  Except in one situation.

Maybe there's a different click-no-start problem for each of us.  Yours was apparently weak relays, maybe someone out there had this problem due to deteriorated wiring.  We'll suspect that when someone shows up who just regularly has the problem, intermittently perhaps but - unlike me - under no special conditions.

(The click-no-start situation in my case, again, is a brief stop after riding a bit, say more than 50 miles, so essentially, during cool down from good and hot.)

Offline rodekyll

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #81 on: April 26, 2016, 01:56:13 PM »
I mentioned earlier that I have a solenoid that I'm using as a hood popper.  It looks exactly like what you'd have hanging off a starter and has a pull-in and hold-in coil.  For purposes of this topic, I'm running it directly through a push-button -- no relay.  I've fused the circuit.  It blows a 10-amp fuse every time.  It takes out a 15a fuse within 5 cycles if you linger on the button at all.  I get a little better out of a 20a fuse, but I never know which pop will be its last.

Bottom line is that unless you've got a starter button good for about 40amp you really do need a relay.

Offline charlie b

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #82 on: April 26, 2016, 04:38:50 PM »
Not to beat this into the ground, but ... with all that old wiring, my motorcycle started fine all the time, except in one situation.

With all that deterioration, the wiring was still providing plenty of juice to get the solenoid going, every day, after sitting around for weeks, whatever.  The stock wiring and stock relay worked fine.  Except in one situation.

Maybe there's a different click-no-start problem for each of us.  Yours was apparently weak relays, maybe someone out there had this problem due to deteriorated wiring.  We'll suspect that when someone shows up who just regularly has the problem, intermittently perhaps but - unlike me - under no special conditions.

(The click-no-start situation in my case, again, is a brief stop after riding a bit, say more than 50 miles, so essentially, during cool down from good and hot.)

Have you changed the relay yet?  If not, try it.  See if the problem goes away.'

Or, when the problem happens try the hotwire and see if that works. 

At least you'd narrow down the problem instead of just writing about it.
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Offline Zoom Zoom

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #83 on: April 26, 2016, 05:40:42 PM »
Startus Interuptus is when you are feeling amorous and she says "not tonight honey, I have a headache!"

Oh wait, you're not talking about.............n ever mind.

John Henry

Offline rodekyll

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #84 on: April 26, 2016, 06:02:18 PM »
Someone had to go there, John Henry -- better you than me.   :boozing:

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #85 on: April 27, 2016, 09:51:35 AM »
Startus Interuptus is when you are feeling amorous and she says "not tonight honey, I have a headache!"

Oh wait, you're not talking about.............n ever mind.

John Henry
I reckon that should be the last word on this topic  :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
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Offline Idontwantapickle

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #86 on: April 27, 2016, 04:01:09 PM »
I have never had the bike fail to start when the battery had sufficient voltage under load.
Blah blah blah relay blah blah blah wiring blah blah blah.
Fix your battery.
Are there other factors at work as the bike gets old? Sure. I did, in fact, bypass the the loom and feed the relay for the solenoid directly just because that's better for everyone involved except lawyers who want the switch to block power directly.
Do you REALLY want to put this to bed forever?
Fix your battery.
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #87 on: April 27, 2016, 04:25:53 PM »
I was just cleaning out my briefcase and found this,
Someone with an EV was experiencing SI so I volunteered to fix mine and document the change it made.


Before I started I cleaned the ignition switch to give it the best chance of working with the original wiring. Using my scope and a current shunt I measured the solenoid current around 30 Amps for 40 milliseconds before the main contacts closed and the engine started turning over, this is acceptable.
I didn't use my storage scope just repeated the sequence multiple times with the engine disabled and sketched what I saw.
After bypassing the ignition switch the inrush current rose by just 17% but notice how the time it took to engage the starter dropped in half.

Note: I consider 35 Amps to be quite low there must be quite a resistance in the wiring from relay to the solenoid I have measured much higher on other Guzzis.
I should have done this test before cleaning the switch.
The point is bypassing the switch made a significant improvement to the starter operation.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 04:43:06 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline RANDM

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Re: What do you think Causes Startus Interuptus?
« Reply #88 on: April 27, 2016, 04:46:54 PM »
There never was a problem Randy, but somewhere there's an answer. BTW, is Arthur's seat chairlift going ?

No, it's not - someone with big pockets must've
bought it though as it's getting a complete re-do.
Pity really, those hairpins are a good scratch and
now half of them have got red clay dust on them
from the work and after it reopens the terrorists
- oh sorry tourists will make it a snail race to the
top again. Place will be full of totally distracted
idiots who don't know where they're going again.

Maurie.

 

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