Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jerdo1 on August 16, 2016, 04:28:31 PM
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Hi,
First of all I'd like to say hello to you all - I'm a new member - from Scotland - but currently living in the south west of France - within minutes, or at the most, hours, of some of the best motorcycling roads in Europe - if not the World. I'm here for the summer with my 2010 Stelvio NTX which has taken me through twisty country roads with perfect surfaces and Alpine and coastal roads that put a massive smile on your face.
I've had the bike for 16 months and have had little or no problem with it. There has always been a 'rattle' from the engine - which my mechanic has described as typical of an 8v Guzzi. He says some have it and some don't. I was quite happy with this until I took the bike to a French Moto Guzzi Dealership today for an unrelated exhaust problem (blowing exhaust due to missing gasket). I THINK the rattle MAY have been getting noisier over the last six weeks - but that might have been the exhaust blowing.
My French isn't the best but the mechanic, on starting it up, said he was worried about the noise coming from the engine. He checked the easy accessible valves at the top of the engine and they're fine but couldn't detect what the noise - which he describes as the noisiest Guzzi he has heard - was. He said that to investigate further he'd have to strip the engine but thought it might be the oil pump?. He suggested that I could ride it back the 60 miles to my home in France, but advised I didn't ride it any more than that. I'm caught between parking the bike up for the last 6 weeks of my stay here until I transport it home on a trailer or continue to squeeze every last minute out of this holiday of a lifetime !!
Unfortunately I can't get hold of my mechanic and am reluctant to commit to an engine strip without some other opinion.
My question is / are
1. Any ideas what the noise might be?
2. How major a job is it?
3. Can I continue to safely ride the bike?
4. What warning, if any, am I likely to get if the oil pump does fail - oil warning light / engine temp light etc.?
Any opinion would be welcome
Jerry
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Yes, it's buggered it's tappets. All the flat tappet models will do it. Do a search of this site but here is a link to get you started.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.msg1228436#msg1228436
Pete
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It's hard to tell what you mean by "rattle". Could it be "pinging" because of inferior gasoline? Could it be valve clatter? Could it be a leaking exhaust joint? My Norge seems to rattle a lot, so did my other 8 Moto Guzzi bikes over the years. Keep riding it and pay attention to the temperatures and noises.
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Yes, it's buggered it's tappets. All the flat tappet models will do it. Do a search of this site but here is a link to get you started.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.msg1228436#msg1228436
Pete
Hi Pete,
Not being of a technical mind, but having read the link, it sounds as if this is probably what is wrong with the bike.
Can I still use it or will I
a) Cause more damage
b) Run the risk of an engine seizure or other failure without warning ?
Thanks
Jerry
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Can I still use it or will I
a) Cause more damage
b) Run the risk of an engine seizure or other failure without warning ?
Do NOT RUN IT.
Find out if it is worn tappets. The DLC powder that might be floating around in there can grind things up.
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Damnit , how many more times must this happen before every Guzzi mechanic catches on ?
Dusty
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I say ride the sucker, enjoy your holiday and fix it later, make the filter earn it's keep.
How practical is it to strip a bike down for a major overhaul in a strange country?
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I guess none of the techs in the whole freekin world ever read the Tech Bulitans or MG website or give 2 sh^ts. No homework either. Real glad I retired completely.
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I say ride the sucker, enjoy your holiday and fix it later, make the filter earn it's keep.
How practical is it to strip a bike down for a major overhaul in a strange country?
Roy , France is familiar to the OP , and the filter won't help in this case .
Dusty
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If you think you're going to get a Frenchmen to read Pete's excellent tutorial good luck.
Perhaps I'm wrong but I would wait until I got home where I can wait a month or two if I had to.
Hell Roy , apparently even most mechanics whose primary language is English can't seem to read Pete's tutorial , or the tech bulletins as Guzzisteve laments .
Dusty
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Hi Pete,
Not being of a technical mind, but having read the link, it sounds as if this is probably what is wrong with the bike.
Can I still use it or will I
a) Cause more damage
b) Run the risk of an engine seizure or other failure without warning ?
Thanks
Jerry
Sorry Jerry. Do NOT ride it. Don't even start it again if you can avoid it.
Will it risk seizure? Unlikely. Will it risk other serious damage? Absolutely.
Actually inspecting for damage is very quick and easy, it simply requires removal of a cambox which takes fifteen minutes. I did a video of me performing the task after another owner here was charged something stupid, (The figure quoted was $2,000US from memory?) for a supposed inspection and then was told his tappets were fine. They weren't but he's been shafted. The video is 13 minutes long and I wasn't rushing.
I can't link the video up here because I'm too computer stupid and I'm a long way from my desktop which is where I can sometimes, by blind luck, embed such stuff but I'll see if I can grab the link to the thread on the Gheto where it's posted up. There is mild profanity in some of the postings on the thread so don't look if you are of a tender disposition.
http://www.grisoghetto.com/t1987-roper-tech-tappet-inspection-on-flattie-8v
Pete
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Shamelessly pinched from someone else on the Ghetto. These are the worst ones I've ever seen! How the owner could ride the bike to this point is completely beyond me? Look at the shrapnel damage to the cambox!
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8194/29038620875_41e14d781e_z.jpg)
Pete
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Ouch !
Dusty
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Yer tappets be jiggered. Aye, 'tis them foul tappets. Uh-hm. {gnaws on corn-cob pipe}
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It's hard to tell what you mean by "rattle". Could it be "pinging" because of inferior gasoline? Could it be valve clatter? Could it be a leaking exhaust joint? My Norge seems to rattle a lot, so did my other 8 Moto Guzzi bikes over the years. Keep riding it and pay attention to the temperatures and noises.
Sorry iMac but this is really poor advice. What is the most important part of the engine? The oil pump. What is the only part of the entire lubrication circuit to recieve unfiltered oil? The oil pump.
If the tappets reach the point where the top end is rattling the wear is pretty well advanced. That means there may be all sorts of particulate matter circulating in the oil. When the engine is cold and the oil thick the filter itself may go into bypass allowing particulates to be passed through the main, big end and cam bearings.
Riding and hoping is NOT an option if serious damage is to be avoided or at least minimised. The machine needs to be rollerised ASAP, delaying the inevitable just increases the risk of comprehensive bearing and pump failure.
Pete
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Great response - thanks.
Bearing in mind that I'm a technotit, I have one question that has been bothering me.
Surely when they removed the top part of the engine for a cursory look they would have spotted if the tappets were worn / damaged as they are (are they not?) located at the top end of the block?. They gave the 'top end' of the engine the all clear but said that the 'problem' was towards the bottom - that is why I assume, he suggested the oil pump.
The noise can best be described as a rattle / clatter - like when you leave a bunch of coins in a pocket and then stick them into the washing machine but it has been with the bike since purchased by my brother at 11000 miles (now 21000). When my brother bought the bike it had full dealer service stamps and has just had the tappets replaced under warranty by MG.
I don't know if this changes anything or is the prognosis / advice the same ?
Jerry
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you cant tell without removing the cam cradle and turning it upside down to see the tappet. as Pete says it is not a long or difficult job, i managed it and am by no means a mechanic - best watch Pete's video and follow every instruction to the letter
any chance it is just a really rattly clutch - my Norge really does sound like spanners in a trash can - until you pull the clutch in.
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Great response - thanks.
Bearing in mind that I'm a technotit, I have one question that has been bothering me.
Surely when they removed the top part of the engine for a cursory look they would have spotted if the tappets were worn / damaged as they are (are they not?) located at the top end of the block?. They gave the 'top end' of the engine the all clear but said that the 'problem' was towards the bottom - that is why I assume, he suggested the oil pump.
The noise can best be described as a rattle / clatter - like when you leave a bunch of coins in a pocket and then stick them into the washing machine but it has been with the bike since purchased by my brother at 11000 miles (now 21000). When my brother bought the bike it had full dealer service stamps and has just had the tappets replaced under warranty by MG.
I don't know if this changes anything or is the prognosis / advice the same ?
What does " They gave the 'top end' of the engine the all clear" mean? Did they pulled both cam boxes and inspected the tappets? Very unlikely, because pretty much 100% of them are failing. I suspect them just looked at it with the valve cover off.
When mine started to eat a tappet, the clearance change was just measureable. Over the next month, the clearance got a little larger. What I didn't know, was that I was cold starting that thing twice a day to go to work. The oil filter goes into bypass on a cold start, and I was washing the crap through the engine. I ended up also damaging the rod big end bearings. Luckily, those are cheap and easy to replace, though the bike waited for 6 weeks for the parts. Unluckily the main bearing in the front of the block is NOT replaceable. If you damage that, it may be 'game over'. DON'T RIDE IT UNTIL YOU ARE 100% SURE YOU ARE NOT FAILING A TAPPET! GET THE DEALER TO TAKE PICTURES FOR YOU! No pictures, it wasn't done.
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The earlier top end work was almost certainly replacement of the original chilled cast iron tappets with the DLC ones, both were flat tappets. Both failed. Hence the change to rollers.
Only a few days ago I posted up a host of pics showing the differences between flat and roller tappets on the AF1 board.
Linky
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?323958-New-to-me-09-Stelvio!
In this thread somewhere I think.
Pete
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Thanks again - particularly to Pete and OMG for their advice given their experience of the problem.
I'm not going to get French Dealer to investigate as, from the replies, it suggests they don't really know what they're looking for. I also don't want issues with warranty of repairs given I'll only be here for the next six weeks or so.
'Looks like it'll be parked up for the remainder of my stay here and I'll have it looked at on my return to Blighty.
Thanks for the help
Jerry
PS. Given I'll have time on my hands - can anyone suggest how to sort out rusty spokes. The bike's wheels are in fine condition - but the spokes, particularly where they join the wheel, are badly rusted - front and back. I assume it's a cold/wet Scottish problem and not something you guys on the other side of the pond suffer from - any advice would be handy. I don't want to have to take the wheels off to do this...
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(Sigh.) where are you? I'll be in the south of France in a couple of weeks. If you are close and have tools I can come and pull a cambox for you if you buy lunch!
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(Sigh.) where are you? I'll be in the south of France in a couple of weeks. If you are close and have tools I can come and pull a cambox for you if you buy lunch!
Jerry , a wise man once said , "never turn down an offer of true expert assistance" .
Pete , that is a very generous offer :bow:
Dusty
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Depends if we are nearby, if he has tools and how good his sommelier is.... :evil:
Pete
PS. Jude will kill me!
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Yer a top bloke Roper. I don't care wot anyone sez. :bow:
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Yer a top bloke Roper. I don't care wot anyone sez. :bow:
I can prove that based upon first-hand experience. :thumb:
Cheers,
Shaun
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Bleary-eyed I get up and read WG before coffee. Did I just read that Pete from Oz is going to fix a lister's 8v in France??
Tales of SuperWrench
Flying across the seas
To fix the
Forlorn's Guzzis
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That's a service call, right there!
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(Sigh.) where are you? I'll be in the south of France in a couple of weeks. If you are close and have tools I can come and pull a cambox for you if you buy lunch!
Hey Pete, you think after you're done over there in wine country you could come over to the states and do your swing arm service on me Griso? I'll buy you a hot dog and some good ol' American Budweiser... :cheesy:
That's the greatest offer of help I've ever seen on a webboard by the way. :thumb:
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Hey Pete, you think after you're done over there in wine country you could come over to the states and do your swing arm service on me Griso? I'll buy you a hot dog and some good ol' American Budweiser... :cheesy:
I think he drinks Miller Light or some such skunk whiz. :evil:
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I know for a fact that Jude likes Margaritas , and if you offer Pete bud or miller he will most likely say things in Ozzie re your ancestry...
Dusty
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I know for a fact that Jude likes Margaritas , and if you offer Pete bud or miller he will most likely say things in Ozzie re your ancestry...
Dustyy
When Pete and Jude visited Singapore in 2012, I suggested to have some light snacks after visiting the sky park.
Pete seems lost but I can sense the reluctance from Jude's expression.
Due of my bad accent, Jude thought that I was offering them 'live snakes' :grin:
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When Pete and Jude visited Singapore in 2012, I suggested to have some light snacks after visiting the sky park.
Pete seems lost but I can sense the reluctance from Jude's expression.
Due of my bad accent, Jude thought that I was offering them 'live snakes' :grin:
That's funny !
Dusty
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Rattle in the Stevio?
Bad Lifters?
Maybe but maybe not.
Could be something else making the noise. OP says it has been there since day 1 and the valve lash has been ok.
Maybe the clutch mechanism?
I cannot say. Not arguing the benefits of roller lifters but that may not be the source of this noise.
My advice is to have someone competent check the lifters and go from there. I agree with that!
.
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It may not. But given the year, the mileage etc it's by far the most likely culprit. Clutches are generally robust. Only one smallish batch in 2012 had problems with the friction plates and they were few and far between.
Sad fact is all flatties are doomed. End of story. The Clearances don't change until the damage is well advanced.
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:violent1:
Bleary-eyed I get up and read WG before coffee. Did I just read that Pete from Oz is going to fix a lister's 8v in France??
Tales of SuperWrench
Flying across the seas
To fix the
Forlorn's Guzzis
No, just an offer to diagnose. Seems the OP has runn'doff.
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Pete,
Wow - It'd be fantastic if you could give me an expert's diagnosis !
Apologies for my apparent desertion - swimming pool duties have kept me busy all day today.
I'm in a village called Puy L'Eveque - in the south west of France, about 15 miles from Cahors - the home of the Malbec grape. If it's wine and food you're after - come on down - I'm buying!.
As for tools - I have none - there is little point in travelling with a box of things that I can't spell, let alone use. That said, I have access to a very friendly garage owner who, if you tell me what you need, I'm sure will loan me?
I'm here until 17 September and, save for an elderly mother and aunt visiting from 3-10th, I'm here when you need me. I've also got spare accommodation if you want to spend a day or two to explore what's around here?
I don't know what the rules are regarding e-mailing or calls but I can send you one, containing the other and we could chat in more detail?
Thanks again for the REALLY generous offer !
Jerry
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Email me.
motomoda.roper [at] gmail.com and I'll see what we can do. Depending on where you are, (I'll google it.) if I can swing it I will. If that happens it might be good to see if your local car place could give us an hour in a corner of his shop. I know what tools I'll need but if anything goes awry it helps if there is a full toolbox nearby. If that isn't possible I can list what I'll need, it isn't much.
Pete
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Email me.
motomoda.roper [at] gmail.com and I'll see what we can do. Depending on where you are, (I'll google it.) if I can swing it I will. If that happens it might be good to see if your local car place could give us an hour in a corner of his shop. I know what tools I'll need but if anything goes awry it helps if there is a full toolbox nearby. If that isn't possible I can list what I'll need, it isn't much.
Pete
Great.
Have a look at the map and see if it's possible - and I'll try not to get too excited - just in case it's off your route.
My garage guy might be a bit precious about the space - cos it's not his garage - but I don't see the tools being an issue.
Jerry
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Jerry , tell your friend that Pete is a World Famous Guzzi mechanic . Like having Jack Brabham grace his shop . Seriously .
Dusty
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The Cahor region has WONDERFUL food...
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Jerry , tell your friend that Pete is a World Famous Guzzi mechanic . Like having Jack Brabham grace his shop . Seriously .
Dusty
Bullshit. I'm just a tradesman who knows his trade.
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Pete deserves commendation for his generous offer of help here.
It's above and beyond the call of duty.
.
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If I'm in the area, why not? As I've stressed before pulling a cambox is NOT the toughest job in the world. Depending on where he takes the bike in the UK he may well get the bum's rush or be told the tappets were loose and they've been adjusted and it's all good now. If we get some pics of damage at least there will be something to show the shop.
Pete
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Bullshit. I'm just a tradesman who knows his trade.
Do you know how rare that is ?? Hell , Jack Brabham , Bruce Mclaren , and Colin Chapman were just hot rodders that were very determined .
Dusty
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OK, looks like this is easy enough. It'll fit in quite nicely. We're staying with friends in Faye la Vineuese just south of Tours, looks like you're about five hours south, if you can tell us an enchanting route that would be great. From your place it's only a couple more hours to Entraygues sur Truyere where some of my mad relatives have a holiday hovel.
We'll be there probably September the first. I'll email you WRT what tools I'll need, it isn't a lot to get the LH cambox off.
Pete
PS. Jude's just looking the place up. Looks like all there is to do is drink plonk and stuff one's face! How awful! :D
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Excellent !
Jerry
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What the hell?!
"I'll meet you in the south of France and take a look at your Guzzi."
Wow.
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I bet ya don't find anything like this on Honda forums.
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Really, I don't see what the big deal is??? I went to California once to rebuild a bloke's Convert on a promise. Got royally stiffed on that one, as did a host o other good Guzzi folks but given whose 'Mate' it was its unsurprising with hindsight.
Pulling a cambox off a Stelvio for some poor sod to ensure he doesn't get rolled, (Unintended, ironic, pun!) by a dealer who doesn't know or the Piaggio behemoth is scarcely arduous and I'm going to be in the area. Having a 'Local' to tell us where the best wine and scoff is is a real BONUS for us.
My mouth is watering just thinking about it! :boozing:
Pete
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I bet ya don't find anything like this on Honda forums.
That is because Honda's never break and are perfect.
I know this, because a Honda Goldwing rider told me so. He told me this, while he was sitting in my garage. He had driven an SUV to my house, because his Goldwing was broken. But never mind that, they are perfect.
de·lu·sion.
[dəˈlo͞oZHən]
NOUN
1.an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder:
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PS. Jude's just looking the place up. Looks like all there is to do is drink plonk and stuff one's face! How awful! :D
Sounds like you will be busy....... :boozing:
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OK, hiccup n this. OP's local tool source is on holiday! (France it seems, like Italy, is frustratingly civilized!). This means tools may be a problem. Do we have any French members with reasonable tools within an hour or two of his location?
This is all that is basically required.
1/2 inch square drive ratchet and a breaker bar with a 24mm socket.
Set of high quality, accurately made, metric Allen keys.
Preferably a 1/4 inch square drive ratchet with a 4mm short Allen key socket.
1/4 inch square drive extension and an 8mm 1/4 drive socket.
A long, thin, flat bladed screwdriver say 300-350mm long with a shaft 6 or so mm wide.
A 10mm socket in 1/2 inch drive. It helps a lot if this is a single hex, (6 point.) type.
A 15mm 1/2 inch square drive socket.
Some sort of prong to hold back the tensioner blade. Even a nail is good enough! It has to be about 50mm long and no wider than 3.5mm
A couple of cable ties.
That's it.
Pete
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Pete
'Can't even begin to think of anyone here (other than my absent friend) who would have or loan me the tools - no matter how rudimentary. I've tasked my brother in law with locating some back home - but the cost of bringing them back here, if he does, seems to outweigh the benefits.
I have deliberately stayed clear of the expat community in these parts - for no particular reason other than I wanted to live the French life. There is a British couple who do motorcycle tours / b&b in a village not too far away. I'll try and make contact with them and extend the hand of friendship / brass neck , and see if they can help a fellow biker in need.
Worst case, as I say, is I trailer the bike home and tell my mechanic what the consensus is. You may know him - Mel Robinson (he used to have a Moto Guzzi dealership - Scotia Bikes I think?) Until a few years ago ?
In the meantime I'll keep trying - do you have a cut off date you'd need to know by?. Obviously (and seriously) the offer of lunch and / or an overnighter still stands whatever...
The road here from Tours is mostly D and N roads - great surfaces and well engineered. The road from here to your relatives is fabulous and can take you through some of the best twisties you'll ever ride.
I'll let you know how I do
Jerry
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Pete,
I've sent an email to Caday Rouge Motorcycle Tours which is a village about 10 miles away and await their reply. Hopefully your kindness is infectious?
Jerry
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Maybe tools are easier to come by in the states ...but I think I would go buy what Pete needs and be happy to have them join my assemblage....
Mark
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Maybe tools are easier to come by in the states ...but I think I would go buy what Pete needs and be happy to have them join my assemblage....
Mark
Mark,
At the risk of conforming to the Scottish stereotype of being "tight-arsed", I think most people in my position would (and will) gratefully take advantage of the kind offer made by Pete. Unless I have misunderstood him, he is doing this to, in the long run, save me money, by not going to unnecessary additional expense having the problem identified at a dealership or elsewhere.
He is offering his skills and expertise for free - yet you suggest I go out and buy a set of tools that I will NEVER use again in "...and be happy to have them join my assemblage" ??!!.
Whilst your opinion is your entitlement and your suggestion is duly noted, I will, on this occasion anyways, choose not to follow either and, instead, continue to endeavour to secure the tools on a 'loan' basis, should that be possible, and perhaps save that money for the inevitable hefty bill that awaits me on my return to the UK.
Jerry
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Great News!
I have just spoken to Trevor from cadayrougemotorcycl etours.com (check out the site - it looks fabulous). He has, incredibly, offered Pete / me the use of not only his extensive tool-kit - but has even suggested we can do the work in his barn?.
I'm meeting him this week to introduce myself and confirm dates etc.
Fantastic
Jerry
"I Have Always Depended on the Kindness of Strangers" - it seldom lets me down.
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"I Have Always Depended on the Kindness of Strangers" - it seldom lets me down.
Hmmm, I have a Mr. Nevada T shirt with that on it.. :smiley:
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Can we fix it?
No it's 'Rhymes with Duck'ed'
Unfortunately exactly as predicted.......
It'll be going back to Bonnie Scotland on a trailer.
Pete
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Can we fix it?
No it's 'Rhymes with Duck'ed'
Unfortunately exactly as predicted.......
It'll be going back to Bonnie Scotland on a trailer.
Pete
Truly unfortunate , is the engine completely ruined ?
Dusty
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Only pulled the LH cambox as a small tank Stelvio tank removal, needed to do the right, rivals the labours of Hercules but the damage isn't so far advanced that if the other side isn't a lot worse I can predict that a *Basic* rollerisation should see it fit and happy again. No guarantees, there never can be, but using my experience I'm hoping for a good outcome.
Pete
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To you all - and especially Pete - thanks for the advice and assistance.
He turned up as promised, with Jude, and put me out of my misery. As predicted by most of you - it is the tappets - and all being well I haven't caused too much damage...
After diagnosis we enjoyed a nice meal and some (!) wine and beer before they headed off east this morning towards some Pommy relatives...
Pete suggested I seek out recommendations for a decent MG Dealer in the UK (preferably the North of England, or better still, Scotland) who I should take the bike to.
My local one - Jim Allen in Falkirk - didn't fill me with confidence following some bad advice. I will try the MGOCUK as well - but I'm sure that most of the folk on that are members here too?!
Any suggestions (and perhaps as importantly - any warnings!) would be appreciated
Jerry
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If youre on Facebook, theres a pretty good Stelvio owners club there. Theres a bunch of Brits on it so I would bet someone can give you that answer.
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Twiggers seem to have a good reputation. They're somewhere in West Yorkshire I think? Skipton? Shipley?
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Dear All
'an update on my efforts...
I called my "local" MG Dealership's Service Department in Scotland today - Forum Rules prevent me from naming them - but, good grief - I thought I didn't know anything about motorbikes !!.
The chap I spoke to had "never heard" of "Rollerisation" or a "Kit" to fix it - ffs !!!.
I tried to talk him through what Pete Roper had done and why - silence! - I honestly thought he was winding me up !.
I then (stupidly) asked about how I could go about getting the "kit" supplied by MG, at no cost, given that it was a well established and acknowledged fault. He promptly supplied me with a telephone number for Piaggio Customer Service Help Desk - telling me that it wasn't a Warranty Issue because the bike was more than two years old, and in any case I would have to take any Warranty or Quality issue up with Piaggio direct !.
I dialled the number he gave me and was connected with the Piaggio Help Desk - in ITALY !
After a futile attempt to make myself understood, the pleasant (but confused) Italian said any warranty claim MUST be initiated by the dealer - along with supporting photos / service history etc - just as Pete explained.
I honestly felt that he had no idea whatsoever of what I was speaking and, given this particular dealership have been an MG franchise for at least 10 years, it doesn't fill me with ANY confidence that they could or should do the job !.
My own mechanic says he can and will do it - but obviously - as he isn't any longer an MG authorised workshop - I assume I won't be able to go down the "free" kit road...
I'll get it sorted when I'm home - but it looks like it's going to be a long road !
Jerry