Author Topic: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?  (Read 2870 times)

Offline TurcoLoco

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Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« on: January 30, 2024, 07:46:17 PM »
Hi Fellow Riders,
During the initial several years of my ownership, the bike was parked near ocean and was exposed to salty air and humidity so there is a certain degree of rust and corrosion around the bike but nothing excessive.
The biggest issue this situation has created is, the seized/stuck nuts and bolts in certain areas that I have not accessed in over 2 years because there was no need.

A few days ago, I topped off the battery, completed the routine check up and warmed up the bike and went on a ride. 15 minutes into the ride, the bike started shaking and dash lights flashed as the engine started running erratically.
Service light came on and with a few seconds off all this happening, I started to pull the bike to the side of the freeway to a safe spot. At almost a full stop the bike abruptly died with the screen showing ECU and a disconnected plug/cable image.
I am guessing "ECU Disconnected". There was no other message, diagnostics had nothing reported, everything on the surface appeared OK. Shut off the bike and turned it back on. No change.
Disconnected the battery for a few minutes and reconnected hoping it was a glitch, no suck luck.

Bik is back at the house. Decided to tear down the bike starting with the side panels to investigate all relevant part starting with the ECU. Checked connectors/pins dry and no visible rust/dirt.
Checked and cleaned the ground connection, no help. I know the battery was OK and got a new battery just to make sure and the issue was still there.
Then decided to check all the fuses and the dash and that is where I managed to create a new headache; the top bolt that screws in and holds the side panel, headlight assembly and the gas tank together is just spinning and not coming loose!!
I tried using Tri-Flow, PB Blaster and sprayed from the top, side, any which way I can but no change. The thread piece/nut that this big bolt screws into must somehow come loose inside its groove and I am not able to pull it out either.
It was not overly tightened but tight enough where I can't really get much of an opening in between the pieces. Due to plastic layers and gas tank involved I can't really do most of the usual stuff I could normally try either.
The loose piece is also not visible or accessible so I really to not know what I can do to break this bolt loose. I tried wedging the nylon prying pieces HFT sells but it still wouldn't budge. I also use a very skinny pick tool and tried poking it all the way down next to the bolt in hopes of reaching all the way down to the loose piece to stabilize it so I could perhaps break the bolt free but I wasn't able to get it that far down and I didn't want to hammer it down and damage the gas tank.

I really do not want to cut any of the parts there just to break them free in order to have access to the rest of the bolt and gas tank.

Can anyone suggest anything that might help?
I am at my wits  end at this point.

Note: Top photo shows the left side that I was able to remove fairly easily, the other photo is showing the side that is stuck and just spinning regardless of using a wrench, socket wrench or power tool.

<iframe title="vimeo-player" src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/908065192?h=83be416d58" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0"    allowfullscreen></iframe>



« Last Edit: January 30, 2024, 07:47:57 PM by TurcoLoco »

Shiny Hat

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2024, 08:32:54 PM »
Get a drill bit the same diameter as the bolt threads. Hold the bolt with a wrench and drill straight through the center.
When you hit the threads the bolt will release. You can then remove the parts to get to the nut (the brass nut is already spinning so the damage is done. This will allow you to remove the bolt and save the parts it attaches.

Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2024, 10:16:56 PM »
Get a drill bit the same diameter as the bolt threads. Hold the bolt with a wrench and drill straight through the center.
When you hit the threads the bolt will release. You can then remove the parts to get to the nut (the brass nut is already spinning so the damage is done. This will allow you to remove the bolt and save the parts it attaches.
Hi Shiny,
Thank you for the reply! I did consider that but I can only use a drill bit that would fit on the inside hole of the stuck bolt.
Is that what you were also suggesting? If so, when I drill down and eventually drill thru the bottom part of that big bolt, how would that break free the bolt from the nut below it exactly?
Or, even if it didn't, I wonder if I could stick a fitting screw driver down thru that new hole until it can reach the bottom and hold that loose piece in place?
Hmm....you have given me an idea that I can test tomorrow.
Hopefully, I can get this issue resolve so I can focus on the main ECU issue!
I will report back either way.

Cheers,
TL
« Last Edit: January 30, 2024, 10:33:42 PM by TurcoLoco »

Online John A

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2024, 04:42:49 AM »
You’re just drilling the head off . Keeping it from turning while drilling it is the trick. I’d start with a drill bit that doesn’t grip the edges of the hex. If a small vice grips or pliers won’t grab the head to hold it, you may have to file some flats on the head. A pitfall is if the bolt spins as you are drilling, it may heat up the plastic and melt it. Once the head is off the panel can be removed and you can extract the rest of the bolt more easily
Edit~ its way different than I imagined, I thought it was a button head . No wonder you needed to save the bolt!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2024, 09:14:59 PM by John A »
John
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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2024, 04:42:49 AM »

Shiny Hat

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2024, 06:47:14 AM »
Hi Shiny,
Thank you for the reply! I did consider that but I can only use a drill bit that would fit on the inside hole of the stuck bolt.
Is that what you were also suggesting? If so, when I drill down and eventually drill thru the bottom part of that big bolt, how would that break free the bolt from the nut below it exactly?
Or, even if it didn't, I wonder if I could stick a fitting screw driver down thru that new hole until it can reach the bottom and hold that loose piece in place?
Hmm....you have given me an idea that I can test tomorrow.
Hopefully, I can get this issue resolve so I can focus on the main ECU issue!
I will report back either way.

Cheers,
TL

You are drilling through the bolt with a bit the same size as the bolt thread diameter. This will ruin the bolt so you can remove the panels without damaging the panels, tank or whatever the bolt is holding. You are sacrificing the bolt.
You only have to drill until you hit the threads, at that point the bolt will fall off. The remaining threads will still be stuck in the nut but you will now have better access to deal with that.

Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2024, 10:35:39 AM »
You’re just drilling the head off . Keeping it from turning while drilling it is the trick. I’d start with a drill bit that doesn’t grip the edges of the hex. If a small vice grips or pliers won’t grab the head to hold it, you may have to file some flats on the head. A pitfall is if the bolt spins as you are drilling, it may heat up the plastic and melt it. Once the head is off the panel can be removed and you can extract the rest of the bolt more easily
I am guessing by head you mean the threaded part of the bolt, right? Sorry by vocabulary when it comes to mechanics lingo is very limited.   :embarrassed:

Based on Shiny's last post, I think my only option is to use a drill bit that is just about the same diameter as the threaded part of the bolt (which from what I could tell a 11/64 bit should work) so the threaded tip of the bolt is, sadly, destroyed freeing up the nut and the rest of the parts held together. As I expected such an exotic bolt/spacer (MG Stelvio wind deflector spacer #887033) seems to cost A LOT from any parts vendor online I could find but that also seems to be the only way. :weiner:

I am currently not working so if any of you knows a good online seller with the best prices, please do let me know.  :smiley:

Well, thank you again! I will tackle that today and see how it goes.

Shiny Hat

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2024, 11:51:43 AM »
I think you got it, see pic. Unfortunately the bolt will be ruined.
The nut is knurled on the outside and bonded to the plastic, it broke free and is spinning. You can try grabbing the top of the bolt with vice grips and pull up and twist, you might be able to pull the nut out and work on it from there.
If the nut is a T type you won’t be able to pull it through.
Best of luck, take your time and think about options before you proceed.




Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2024, 03:09:05 PM »




Well, I got it out using the power drill/friction hack shown in this video.
It took a bit of effort using a HFT vinyl pry tool to push it up once it got heated enough.
Around the same time I saw smoke coming out so I used a large set of pliers to pull the top bolt up and push the vinyl pry tool under the captive nut then sprayed cold water onto the tank.
I am happy to have saved the bolt so I am guessing if I JB Weld the captive nut back in, it should be good to go!  :popcorn:

From the looks of it, there is no direct connection or opening from that hole to the actual tank which was a bit of relief.
IMO, using a captive nut on gas tank is an utter "Sh.t Design"!  :violent1:
« Last Edit: January 31, 2024, 03:16:34 PM by TurcoLoco »

Shiny Hat

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2024, 03:44:16 PM »
Good job, way different style nut then I thought. Glad to see you researched and found a method that worked.

Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2024, 04:39:26 PM »
Good job, way different style nut then I thought. Glad to see you researched and found a method that worked.
Yup, I am a bit of a hot head but I am trying to keep the saying "Measure twice (or thrice), cut once" in mind when applicable.
Thank you for chipping in to help! I am not celebrating yet since the main issue (ECU Disconnected showing on display) is still unresolved.
Battery checked out, the big fuses under the seat or good (as I predicted), I am going to check the fuses behind the headlight.
I seriously doubt the ECU had crapped out but there is definitely a "disconnect" between the ECU and the dash.
Checked ECU connectors, looked dry and clean, no rust. Removed ECU ground wire connector, cleaned the area, still no change.

Just not sure what else to check not good with electrical system troubleshooting!  :rolleyes:



Online Tkelly

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2024, 04:40:22 PM »
Congratulations so far but did you figure out the original problem?

Online Tom H

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2024, 08:12:18 PM »
Even though the ECU connector looks clean. You might pick up a bottle or spray can of De Oxit. It's a contact cleaner. Might?? fix the issue?? Also, clean all connectors with it before you decide the ECU has failed.

Hope this helps,
Tom
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Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2024, 08:51:13 PM »
Congratulations so far but did you figure out the original problem?
No, not yet. Now that I am able to remove the headlight assembly, I will be focusing on that.


Even though the ECU connector looks clean. You might pick up a bottle or spray can of De Oxit. It's a contact cleaner. Might?? fix the issue?? Also, clean all connectors with it before you decide the ECU has failed.

Hope this helps,
Tom
Thanks, Tom.
It got dark by the time I got done with the car. Tomorrow, I will put my full focus on Stelvio.
I got me a can of CRC Contact Electronics cleaner (boy did they go up in price!).
I will definitely be spraying inside the ECU connectors as well as the big Dash pin connector with that cleaner.
The bike wasn't exposed to any serious rain and I do not typically wash that part of the bike so kind of odd that the connectors would be corroded or dirty but it'd be a fairly easy thing to eliminate.

Not sure where exactly the ECU or any related component fuses are but I will check them all to make sure.
Other than those, not sure where to go next.

Online Tom H

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2024, 09:09:30 PM »
Maybe I missed it. What exactly are you working on?

Tom
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Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2024, 06:49:49 PM »
Maybe I missed it. What exactly are you working on?

Tom

Sure, no problem. From my op:

Quote
A few days ago, I topped off the battery, completed the routine check up and warmed up the bike and went on a ride. 15 minutes into the ride, the bike started shaking and dash lights flashed as the engine started running erratically.
Service light came on and with a few seconds off all this happening, I started to pull the bike to the side of the freeway to a safe spot. At almost a full stop the bike abruptly died with the screen showing ECU and a disconnected plug/cable image.
I am guessing "ECU Disconnected". There was no other message, diagnostics had nothing reported, everything on the surface appeared OK. Shut off the bike and turned it back on. No change.
Disconnected the battery for a few minutes and reconnected hoping it was a glitch, no suck luck.

Online Tom H

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2024, 07:21:04 PM »
I must still be missing it after re-reading the thread.....

What year and model of Guzzi are you working on?

Sorry confused,
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
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Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2024, 05:10:50 PM »
My bike is a 2017 Stelvio with about 22K miles on it.

Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2024, 09:04:17 PM »
Battery checked out, even a new battery I got didn't help.
ECU Ground connector is intact, removed and cleaned it, didn't help.
Cleaned ECU and Dash connectors using Electronics Cleaner, didn't help.
All fuses checked out OK.

I have not use Guzzi Diag before but I was thinking about giving it a shot just to see if ECU is good or not. I am guessing it'd help with that.
Other than that, not sure what to do next, anyone any ideas?
TIA
« Last Edit: February 04, 2024, 09:07:29 PM by TurcoLoco »

Offline Zenermaniac

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2024, 09:20:55 PM »
When I had an “ECU Disconnected” message my ECU (MIU3) was bricked. Had to replace it.

Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2024, 12:25:39 PM »
When I had an “ECU Disconnected” message my ECU (MIU3) was bricked. Had to replace it.
Was your fuel pump pre-loading when you turned on the ignition? How old was your bike when that happen, and more importantly were you able to figure out the cause?
I didn't see MIU3 on display. Dash diagnostics were empty/blank.

I have a (bad) feeling mine might be too as any other possibility would not likely to happen in mid ride (me thinks).
I also didn't notice the fuel pump pre-loading which typically happens when you turn the ignition on. I am guessing this is controlled by the ECU which would prove ECU is definitely not alive (either not getting power or gone bad).
Not sure if my assumptions are accurate or not.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2024, 12:26:42 PM by TurcoLoco »

Online Tom H

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2024, 01:02:40 PM »
Your fuel pump "should" be controlled by the ECU.

Before just deciding the ECU is bad. You said you checked the fuses. Did you check them with a volt meter or just look at them? Did you check the fuse sockets and the wires to them?

I don't think this would matter to the ECU, but the fuel pump it would. Kill switch is in the run position?

Guzzidiag is free, the cables will cost a few dollars. Amazon has them as well as the likely best source Lonelec in England.

If it really is looking like the ECU died. I read about one being bricked while uploading a new map to it. I can look this up, but they decided to try a few things while loading the map, doing it the completely wrong way. They were able to revive the ECU. I know this is not your case, but if it was my bike I would try it before buying a new ECU.

If you do need a new ECU, you should be able to find a used one of the correct model on the bay of fleas for instance. Then if it was for another bike, you could load the map for your Stelvio in to it and be on your way. Someone here may be able to provide you, via email. the map if you ask.

Good luck!
Tom
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Online Vagrant

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2024, 06:43:17 PM »
Did you replace or at least clean all the relays?
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Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2024, 10:16:03 PM »
Your fuel pump "should" be controlled by the ECU.

Before just deciding the ECU is bad. You said you checked the fuses. Did you check them with a volt meter or just look at them? Did you check the fuse sockets and the wires to them?

I don't think this would matter to the ECU, but the fuel pump it would. Kill switch is in the run position?

Guzzidiag is free, the cables will cost a few dollars. Amazon has them as well as the likely best source Lonelec in England.

If it really is looking like the ECU died. I read about one being bricked while uploading a new map to it. I can look this up, but they decided to try a few things while loading the map, doing it the completely wrong way. They were able to revive the ECU. I know this is not your case, but if it was my bike I would try it before buying a new ECU.

If you do need a new ECU, you should be able to find a used one of the correct model on the bay of fleas for instance. Then if it was for another bike, you could load the map for your Stelvio in to it and be on your way. Someone here may be able to provide you, via email. the map if you ask.

Good luck!
Tom
Thank you, Tom.
I am still puzzled as to how a bad connection or corrosion could cause this in the middle of riding the bike. That just didn't seem like a possibility to begin with but hey, I am here asking for help so...
I didn't check the actual fuse ports inside the aux fuse box. I will check at least the one with 3A which I believe is for the ECU.
Since the bike has power (lights, dash, etc.), I don't think power is the problem. Also, as I mentioned the battery checked out and the brand new battery I got didn't help either.
I found the cables I bought when I downloaded Guzzi Diag a little while back. Hopefully, I will get around to using it before the weekend.
Would using it provide 100% certainty whether the ECU is bad or good depending on whether it could/couldn't see the ECU or could there still be something else?
I am really hoping it is not the ECU but an ECU going dead while riding, however unlikely it seems, would explain what happened, am I wrong?

If there is anything else I should be checking, please fire away. I will keep checking the thread while staking stabs at this in the upcoming days.

Cheers!


Quote from: vagrant
Did you replace or at least clean all the relays?
Thank you. 
I removed and checked them visually and sprayed some contact electronics cleaner but nothing else.
Not sure which one is the ECU relay or if there is even one for it or any others that may actually cause this.
If there is a specific one for ECU, which one is it please?

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2024, 10:21:53 AM »
The smartest thing to do is replace all of them with new 5 prongs units. A guy here sells them at a good price. Someone help out with his name.
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Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2024, 09:20:51 PM »
The smartest thing to do is replace all of them with new 5 prongs units. A guy here sells them at a good price. Someone help out with his name.
Hi Vagrant,
Sorry you lost me, replace all of what exactly?

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2024, 11:45:03 PM »
He means replace all the relays with better ones.
Siemens relays have a high failure rate.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2024, 12:36:52 AM by John A »
John
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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2024, 07:42:32 AM »
The smartest thing to do is replace all of them with new 5 prongs units. A guy here sells them at a good price. Someone help out with his name.

The guy with the relays everyone liked was Pyrodan. His website is or was dpguzzi.com. I have no idea if he's still around or not.

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2024, 08:16:14 AM »
Pyro is alive and well here in WI.

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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2024, 09:14:53 AM »
Yes, the relays. I got mine from pyro Dan.
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Re: Any Ideas On What to Do With This?
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2024, 09:59:33 AM »
http://dpguzzi.com/
Here is a link to his site.
John
MGNOC L-471
It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled-Mark Twain
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