State of Guzzi

[MotoG5]

Well the end of another riding season has come to an end here in the Midwest. Snow and a good layer of ice on the roads this morning. Tons and sand and salt soon to follow. I like many here have been riding and wrenching on Guzzis for quite a few years and I must say things have fundamentally changed on how I see my chosen brand of bike. Over the years I have owned and at least ridden at one time or another just about anything Guzzi ever imported to the US. Until this year when ever asked about Guzzi I have promoted and recommended them at every opportunity. That has come to an end along with this riding season. The things that have been going on in the last three years with quality control issues, poor dealership relations and just plain dishonesty have combined to make me tell anyone interested that they had better get VERY well informed about the model and year of bike they may be looking at. And, if they do not have a good solid background in bikes and working on them that it would be best to pick something else to buy. I lay the blame on Piaggio. I find it hard to forgive selling me a bike, 12' Stelvio NTX , that they knew was going to fail and even after that making it extremely difficult to get the needed parts to make it right. More than that making the parts process so difficult that my dealer finally threw in the towel after years of being with Guzzi. To be honest my bike is still on the road and I was able to keep ahead of the problems and ultimately the coast in dollars, thanks to great support from my dealer, was not too great. But the future has become much more uncertain if the bike will continue to run and not finally cost a great deal more to keep it going. Also I as a basically honest man could not sell this bike to anyone with out full disclosure as to where things are with it. So unless I want to take a bath on it I am pretty much stuck with things as they are. If I were to buy a new bike this next year for first time in over forty years it would most likely not be a Guzzi. A sad state of affairs indeed.     

[fotoguzzi]

you could always get a Vstrom or something that you just ride and not wrench.

[elvisboy77]

I don't think anything described in the OP is anything new under the Guzzi sun.  Been riding them since 1986, they are quirky as is the company that sells them.  There are cultural differences (just like other foreign manufacturers) that will sometimes make your experience rather mind blowing.

Yes, if you get a Suzuki VStrom then you will be free of the tyranny of Piaggio.  So there's that.

[bad Chad]

Piaggio is no different than most big companies, in many ways.  Vehicle manufactures are well noted for willing selling products with known safety defects, let alone know defects of another kind.  Look at very partial list, GM-faulty ignitions , Ford- faulty gas tanks, Toyota-faulty ignitions systems, the list goes on and on. 

All I'm saying is these big companies care about making money, don't ever think they care about you.

[oldbike54]

All I'm saying is these big companies care about making money, don't ever think they care about you.

 Sad , but true .

  Dusty

[Matteo]

My riding partner just swore off BMW after losing patience over his K1600 problems. Sold it after 2 years.

[WitchCityGuzzi]

Well the end of another riding season has come to an end here in the Midwest. Snow and a good layer of ice on the roads this morning. Tons and sand and salt soon to follow. I like many here have been riding and wrenching on Guzzis for quite a few years and I must say things have fundamentally changed on how I see my chosen brand of bike. Over the years I have owned and at least ridden at one time or another just about anything Guzzi ever imported to the US. Until this year when ever asked about Guzzi I have promoted and recommended them at every opportunity. That has come to an end along with this riding season. The things that have been going on in the last three years with quality control issues, poor dealership relations and just plain dishonesty have combined to make me tell anyone interested that they had better get VERY well informed about the model and year of bike they may be looking at. And, if they do not have a good solid background in bikes and working on them that it would be best to pick something else to buy. I lay the blame on Piaggio. I find it hard to forgive selling me a bike, 12' Stelvio NTX , that they knew was going to fail and even after that making it extremely difficult to get the needed parts to make it right. More than that making the parts process so difficult that my dealer finally threw in the towel after years of being with Guzzi. To be honest my bike is still on the road and I was able to keep ahead of the problems and ultimately the coast in dollars, thanks to great support from my dealer, was not too great. But the future has become much more uncertain if the bike will continue to run and not finally cost a great deal more to keep it going. Also I as a basically honest man could not sell this bike to anyone with out full disclosure as to where things are with it. So unless I want to take a bath on it I am pretty much stuck with things as they are. If I were to buy a new bike this next year for first time in over forty years it would most likely not be a Guzzi. A sad state of affairs indeed.   

It's a shame that you've had that experience. Many years out of warranty, my dealer got my parts for the rollerization for my 09 Stelvio from Guzzi gratis. My wife's '11 Griso also got done in about a one month of down time. Also gratis except for labor, which I still don't consider that big a deal. I don't understand why the dealer couldn't get parts. I think my dealer waited 2 weeks for them. All in all after dealing with manufacturers on manufactured defects (rot in hell Porsche) Guzzi handled the cam issue pretty well from my perspective.

Since its been rollerized, I've flogged the crap out of the Stelvio for another 18,000 miles. No issues. I don't give it a second thought. My original plan was to trade it in at 100,000 miles, but at this point, I don't think I'll bother.

[MotoG5]

While I tend to agree with all that has been said, I'm also tired of the sense of entitlement in our current culture.  It wasn't that long ago, you bought a vehicle and it was yours.  Little or no warranty, no safety recalls, nothin'.  If something broke, you fixed it or had it fixed.  I can't help but think much of the angst people have over Moto Guzzi is because they didn't honor this or that.  You spend all your time arguing with the dealer and factory reps.  You work yourselves into a tizzy and then swear off the brand forever.  We have enough stress in our lives without worrying about the repair of our vehicles. 

I'm sorry you've had trouble with your bike.  I sincerely am, but the only thing I can blame on Moto Guzzi is poor quality.

I don't think expecting a Guzzi engine to go more than 16K with out eating its top end and trashing the mains is a feeling of entitlement. I agree with you on most of the issues the bikes have had in the past but this one is a little to far over the line to give em a pass on. I opened up my bike out of concern for what I was hearing from other owners and found that I was just in time to catch the tappet failure before it was to late for the lower end too. I am not going to swear off the brand and plan on riding the one I have now but if did replace it I would be real careful if it was going to be another NEW Guzzi.   

[guzzinka]

  In a way, ive always been happy to buy older model used vehicles.  The price is right and despite some blemishes, the bugs are well documented and worked out by that point.  Like Bad Chad says, they all have problems and if you read reviews on any brand made you will find people disgusted with the lack of recalls or warranty back-up, it's just part of the game of making $$$.
  It's sad to see you discouraged with Guzzi, I suggest a nice used model with the problems sorted to keep you happy through the dark times!  They are lovely quirky machines.....

[Shorty]

The best dealers , and long time owners throwing in the towel.     

[professor]

Where I live there are three dealership within an hour (my dealer is fifteen minutes away) of driving. Go an extra thirty minutes and it is up to five, two hours add two more for a total of seven. All are doing just fine. With two specialty shops catering to MG and Italian bikes. V7 Racers sell with some speed. V7 Standards a bit slower. The big bikes linger. There is always a deal to be had. I doubt any ever go a MSRP. And all offer test rides. So, in big metro areas MG has a toe hold. The V7 Racer sells on looks. The young buyers don't know a Heron head from a Hemi head. As for HP they don't care. It just looks cool. They don't race and never will. They don't tour and never will. They like old school cool. The new Roamer will do just fine with these guys. I talk to them all of the time in my job. Vespa does well too.

[Arizona Wayne]

Piaggio is no different than most big companies, in many ways.  Vehicle manufactures are well noted for willing selling products with known safety defects, let alone know defects of another kind.  Look at very partial list, GM-faulty ignitions , Ford- faulty gas tanks, Toyota-faulty ignitions systems, the list goes on and on. 

All I'm saying is these big companies care about making money, don't ever think they care about you.

The Toyota faulty ignition system was a ruse brought  on by unions.  It was never substantiated.  I've driven Toyotas since `75 and have never had any issues with them.


Over 30 years I have owned 6 used Guzzis, never a new 1.  As such I don't expect them to be perfect.  The newest 1 I own is a `04 750 Breva and I don't plan on owning a newer 1 just because they have become too heavy, complicated for  me.  Now if Guzzi ever came out with a maxi-scooter, maybe.    For now it's Piaggio MP3s, which I find pretty much bulletproof. 

[canuguzzi]

What other company in recent history sent out bikes it knew would eat top end, not on some but on all of them?

Sorry but this whole thing about other riders complaining about different brands doesn't hold water. They are selling exponentially more bikes and the percentages of failures are much lower.

Imagine ST1300s eating their top ends, every one of them in several model years. Not buying it. Even the V engines if the early 80s didn't have 100% failure rates nor was it known and then sold otherwise and that was decades ago.

It isn't quirky, its shameful. Ease of maintenance is meaningless if you're doing it all the time.

The OP is basically stuck with a lemon. Every prior to mid 2012 8V with a flat tappet engine is a lemon. Buy an older model? What a great way to recommend a brand.

[professor]

If you really think MG is crap. And your points are all well made, buy a New Royal Enfield and have the entire rear end lock up at speed as is the current state of affairs. Let's face it. If you want a appliance like bike, look east to Japan. Not Europe. Triumph is the exception. Even Ducati as good as it is not a bike for the non- mechanic. Valve adjustments??? $1200!!

[oldbike54]

 Winter has set in early this year 

 Look fellas , every company has problems when new advanced technology is introduced . HD had trouble with the early EVO engines , then again with the TC motors . BMW had issues with the early oilheads being incredibly sensitive to oil levels and then there is the famous bevel box fiasco . Honda had several transmission failures with the introduction of the 1800 GW's . Heck , going back to the 1960's , Honda had major problems with the lack of real cam bearings , and let's not forget how many Suzuki models had complete failure of their charging systems due to stators melting . Yeah , MG has some things to deal with , don't give up yet , it's a brave new world .
 
  Dusty

[Vasco DG]

Sad thing is I can fully understand the OP's frustration.

The fact that the flat tappet top end failed in service, while inconvenient and unfortunate, I can sort of forgive because no matter how rigorous testing is under 'Laboratory' conditions once out in the real world, being ridden by different people in different conditions problems can rear their ugly heads.

Although tappet failure is easily detected by visual inspection of the tappet faces it often won't show up in terms of noise or really rapid valve clearance increase until the issue is in its final death throes. I have only comparatively recently discovered exactly how widespread the problem is, not by having had a lot of instantly recognisable failures in but because any and every flat tappet bike that comes into my workshop I strongly suggest that I be allowed to pull the LH cambox. Most customers are happy for me to do this when I explain the situation and since I have been doing this I haven't had a single bike through that wasn't showing some sign of damage. Even really low mileage ones like the one I aranged for my mate Dave which had only 13,000km on and ran perfectly was showing wear but I'd checked it's clearances only a few months ago when I was tuning it after a re-map and they were spot on.

It may be that as the cams and tappets fail the gaps open up, but only by a small amount, between services. Only when all the DLC has abraded away will the sudden increases in clearance become apparent as the foot of the tappet and nose of the cam disintegrate. This leads to the problem not being detected until the bitter end by which time other, more serious damage, may be occurring. Certainly in five years I never picked it up and believe me, with all of the horror stories being bandied about I was scrutinising things very closely. Once major damage has occurred other, visible, evidence will be present that can be identified without removing the camboxes and inspecting cams and tappets but early failure does require a strip and inspect.

Getting back to the original point though what does make my blood boil is the fact that it must of been known that the problem was unsolveable very early in the piece and by mid 2010 they were already fitting shims under the inlet valve springs and marking the heads to make them identifiable as such. That would seem to indicate to me that they had already designed the *Fix*, (Who knows?! They may of had it ready to roll even before the first tappet change to the DLC ones from the original cast iron ones and decided to try DLC because it was cheaper!) but they continued selling flawed machines for a further two years and I'm sorry, I really can't see any way that they can't of known about it. I have my ideas about why they chose to do that but they are just ideas, I really don't know.

The second thing that really pisses me off is that they make owners and the people who are trying to fix things jump through hoops backwards with a burning branch stuck up their blurter to get their belated and grudgingly offered *Upgrade* kits supplied and if you can't dot every I and cross every T then you get thrown to the lions. Unconscionable!

The 1200 Nuovo Hi-Cam is a wonderful motor. It's performance and character are fantastic and like all Guzzi motors since time immemorial despite their *Low* power output they still punch well above their weight and are a joy to ride, operate and even work on. It is that, and the fact that I think they have been packaged very well in the machines that have been offered with the engine in, that keeps me loyal to the brand and still a cheer-leader for the engine itself. A correctly tuned and mapped 1200 is a truly outstanding motorbike and I for one will part from mine when it is pried from my 'Cold, dead fingers'. That doesn't mean that anybody else should, or will, feel the same way.

I feel that the parent company has behaved very, very shabbily. The denials and dodging of responsibility makes my skin crawl. I can perfectly understand people, even those loyal to the brand, simply walking away in disgust.

Perhaps that's just the way things are nowadays though? I have no idea, I'm aware I'm a product of a different age. Sad to see the brand I've stuck with for most of my life being tortured to death by a bunch of bean counters and corporate suits.

Pete

[Rox]

The best dealers , and long time owners throwing in the towel.     

This is true. Mostly at fault of the manufacturer and their demands of the dealer. Ive seen my local Triumph dealer do it. They are forced to get so in bed with them and dependently invested they end up being "yes men" to the company and forgetting past ethics. Bad business practices from the top. I bought my 6th Triumph last March. A used Rocket with 89 miles on the clock. 12hrs later the rear end seizes and almost kills me. Long story short instead of making things right they tell me to bugger off . They send guys to observe the bike and made a conclusion theyre not liable without even touching the bike. Then afew months later I get a letter from a law firm saying if I slander the brand I can possibly face " legal consequences" . Not shitting you. My insurance in process of sueing them as we speak. And all it would of took was a rebate on a new purchase and I would of been happy. Instead I wrote off Triumph and bought a new Honda.
    Pretty bold of Piaggio to pull that crap.. To this day Guzzi still hasn't got a sure foothold in North America. Customer support is VERY prudent. If the bike is faulty it's financially smarter to just fix it than anything. Especially if it's legitimate. It's not like ge was doing anything to possibly void the warranty , right?
      All these reasons Im reading in this thread is why I go by word of mouth and from people I know when it comes to buying a new or used bike and using a particular dealer. And I have lost trust in dealers. I had a dealer give me a good trade offer on my one bike and the suddenly got shady. They tell me they want to 'inspect the bike" . So I do. They come back 2 hours later and tell me I have a crankcase leak and a bad fork seal and itll be 700$ to fix so they'd have to deduct that from the trade value.  The crankcase seal was replaced 400 miles ago . I take the bike home and discover those "upstanding guys" loosened my oil filter and rode it a few miles getting it to leak . Sadly this was my local Guzzi dealer changing they're ethics. Pro Italia in LA  of all places..
    I guess  the moral to my rant is to do your research and if they try to get shady call them out on it. Find a good source of a dealer or shop and know enough about them.

   
   
   

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

I don't think expecting a Guzzi engine to go more than 16K with out eating its top end and trashing the mains is a feeling of entitlement. I agree with you on most of the issues the bikes have had in the past but this one is a little to far over the line to give em a pass on. I opened up my bike out of concern for what I was hearing from other owners and found that I was just in time to catch the tappet failure before it was to late for the lower end too. I am not going to swear off the brand and plan on riding the one I have now but if did replace it I would be real careful if it was going to be another NEW Guzzi.

This very issue is why I don't own a Stelvio or Griso....  I would have bought at least one of them several times over by now... but the uncertainty swirling around the roller kits, availability, A,B,C and of course finding a dealer I trust within a day's drive to do the work has torpedoed my hopes.

Some will say it's not a big deal, but 99% or vehicle owners (of any type) are not comfortable with rebuilding their vehicle engine themselves after just 10-20k miles

the fact that Guzzi continued to sell the bikes, once it was a known issue... then the rarity of the kits and dearth of dealer support is too big of a triple whammy for me to bike. 

I buy what I want, the money is not an issue.. I would certainly have a Teni Griso or a Stelvio by now if this issue didn't exist.  The prospect of buying a bike and then dropping it off for a month+ for a major repair at a dealer that has only carried Guzzi for a year... that is a tough pill to swallow.

[rocker59]

Well...  for first time in over forty years it would most likely not be a Guzzi. A sad state of affairs indeed.   

Let me guess.  You live in the Houston metro ?

[bad Chad]

This very issue is why I don't own a Stelvio or Griso....  I would have bought at least one of them several times over by now... but the uncertainty swirling around the roller kits, availability, A,B,C and of course finding a dealer I trust within a day's drive to do the work has torpedoed my hopes.

Some will say it's not a big deal, but 99% or vehicle owners (of any type) are not comfortable with rebuilding their vehicle engine themselves after just 10-20k miles

the fact that Guzzi continued to sell the bikes, once it was a known issue... then the rarity of the kits and dearth of dealer support is too big of a triple whammy for me to bike. 

I buy what I want, the money is not an issue.. I would certainly have a Teni Griso or a Stelvio by now if this issue didn't exist.  The prospect of buying a bike and then dropping it off for a month+ for a major repair at a dealer that has only carried Guzzi for a year... that is a tough pill to swallow.

Why would it be an issue for you?   The problem was fixed on new bikes years ago.  You can go buy a new Griso, Stelvio off the floor with no worry what so ever about engine life.   I'll take you at your on your dealer situation, but understand the issue only applies to the first three years or so of 8v production.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

Why would it be an issue for you?   The problem was fixed on new bikes years ago.  You can go buy a new Griso, Stelvio off the floor with no worry what so ever about engine life.   I'll take you at your on your dealer situation, but understand the issue only applies to the first three years or so of 8v production.

I didn't say I wanted a new one...  Besides, they haven't fixed the farcockteh turn signals and fog lights, what would lead you to think other issues are ironed out?

the last sentence in your post is the most telling... "3 years or so"  that's the issue. It's not even entirely clear to anyone who doesn't have dealer info at their disposal (or has opened up a dozen of these things) which models are affected.. seems to me from what I can glean that AT LEAST '09-'12 bikes are in the shit group... but I don't think it's every bike from every year?  I don't feel disassembling a motorcycle engine from model year '12 or '13 with 5k miles on it to 'see' if it is an affected model is a very reassuring course of action.

[Kev m]

If you want a appliance like bike, look east to Japan. Not Europe. Triumph is the exception. Even Ducati as good as it is not a bike for the non- mechanic. Valve adjustments??? $1200!!

Point of order. Our Ducati Monster valve adjustment was only < $600, meaning it was NO WHERE NEAR $1200.

AND FWIW, I realize it's been only four years of a couple thousand miles per year, but it has been turn key appliance reliable.

[Vasco DG]

It's not even entirely clear to anyone who doesn't have dealer info at their disposal (or has opened up a dozen of these things) which models are affected.. seems to me from what I can glean that AT LEAST '09-'12 bikes are in the shit group... but I don't think it's every bike from every year?  I don't feel disassembling a motorcycle engine from model year '12 or '13 with 5k miles on it to 'see' if it is an affected model is a very reassuring course of action.

No, this isn't the case.

The problem affects all flat tappet 8V models. That is all 1200-8V engines built before about the middle of 2012. Checking to see if models at the cusp of the changeover are roller or flat is as easy as pulling off a rocker cover. Next time I'm at my desktop I'll once again post up some pics showing the easily identified difference between the roller and flat tappet camboxes so you can see for yourself. Identifying *Which engines* is easier. Identifying *Which kit* is required is similarly easy. I can do a photo tutorial on that too if required? This isn't some sort of weird *SECRET only available to 'Special' people who are required to don a pink fur Onesie and sacrifice kittens to the Gods of Antiquity! It's no more *Secret* than knowing how to tell the difference between a small, mid or big valve Tonti head!

As I've said before I'd buy another flat tappet bike in a heartbeat! But the first thing I'd do is rollerise it and as you can see from my photo-essay on that its not terrifically difficult. If you can replace the clutch on a Loop or Tonti it's well within your grasp to rollerise an 8V.

And before someone shouts at me, NO, you shouldn't need to but that's just the way it is and there is no point in whinging about it.

Pete

[bad Chad]

I think BBQ just wants to bitch.   That's my opinion, I might be wrong.

[Dean Rose]

you could always get a Vstrom or something that you just ride and not wrench.

Been thinking about doing just that.


Dean

[maquette]

    you could always get a Vstrom or something that you just ride and not wrench.

"Been thinking about doing just that."
"Dean"

There's a lot to be said about those V Stroms Dean, might be a good choice.

That said, I just bought a '98 EV, . . . . . . . .  . . .I'm so confused. 

Tom

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

I think BBQ just wants to bitch.   That's my opinion, I might be wrong.

not particularly...  but it's disingenuous for people like Pete who are MASTER MECHANICS poo-poo anyone for not buying a bike that requires a major engine overhaul after 10k miles...  Sure, its "just as easy as changing a clutch on a loop" but in the real world, 99.5% or people are unable or unwilling to do such maintenance on a like-new vehicle.  Sure it's 'easy' if you have a full shop, bike lifts, special tools, and the parts pipeline afforded to a dealer or factory authorised service tech.

To me it would be 'easy' to prep & cook a plated 4-course dinner for 1500 people in two days, heck I could do it myself with no help... But that doesn't mean anyone would be a fool or a complainer to not be able to pull it off himself in their home kitchen without wholesale food purchasing power, commercial equipment, kitchen space, and hot-holding equipment!

[Vasco DG]

not particularly...  but it's disingenuous for people like Pete who are MASTER MECHANICS poo-poo anyone for not buying a bike that requires a major engine overhaul after 10k miles...  Sure, its "just as easy as changing a clutch on a loop" but in the real world, 99.5% or people are unable or unwilling to do such maintenance on a like-new vehicle.  Sure it's 'easy' if you have a full shop, bike lifts, special tools, and the parts pipeline afforded to a dealer or factory authorised service tech.

To me it would be 'easy' to prep & cook a plated 4-course dinner for 1500 people in two days, heck I could do it myself with no help... But that doesn't mean anyone would be a fool or a complainer to not be able to pull it off himself in their home kitchen without wholesale food purchasing power, commercial equipment, kitchen space, and hot-holding equipment!

My intention was not to be disingenuous, neither do I feel that I was. Wayne has none of the items listed in bold above and he doesn't seem to have any problems. Dave, (Lucian.) I think did his conversion himself, not sure, as have several others here.

As for having access to some sort of 'Hot-line to God'? You jest! just yesterday I got approval through for the upgrade to the bike I just brokered for my mate Dave. Checking the importer's parts site I was amazed to find they actually had another 'C' kit in stock. Usually between approval and processing there is a couple of days but I WANTED that kit so I was straight on the blower. Five minutes of toadying and being abject and an email drops into my inbox saying it's been allocated to me and will be despatched on Monday! Another quick check of the parts site shows that the bloody 'C' kits are back 'On order' No 'Special Treatment' for us any more than any other mug punter.

Good news is though that the bloke who's coming down from up near Lismore on Wednesday will be able to Drag his bike away again in a couple of days rather than waiting for a munf or more for the Gnomes of Noale to pull their heads out of their collective arses and despatch/manufacture another bunch of kits! Very occasionally the golden eagle shits and you're standing underneath it! No missed summer riding for him!

Pete

[canuguzzi]

Sad thing is I can fully understand the OP's frustration.

The fact that the flat tappet top end failed in service, while inconvenient and unfortunate, I can sort of forgive because no matter how rigorous testing is under 'Laboratory' conditions once out in the real world, being ridden by different people in different conditions problems can rear their ugly heads.

Although tappet failure is easily detected by visual inspection of the tappet faces it often won't show up in terms of noise or really rapid valve clearance increase until the issue is in its final death throes. I have only comparatively recently discovered exactly how widespread the problem is, not by having had a lot of instantly recognisable failures in but because any and every flat tappet bike that comes into my workshop I strongly suggest that I be allowed to pull the LH cambox. Most customers are happy for me to do this when I explain the situation and since I have been doing this I haven't had a single bike through that wasn't showing some sign of damage. Even really low mileage ones like the one I aranged for my mate Dave which had only 13,000km on and ran perfectly was showing wear but I'd checked it's clearances only a few months ago when I was tuning it after a re-map and they were spot on.

It may be that as the cams and tappets fail the gaps open up, but only by a small amount, between services. Only when all the DLC has abraded away will the sudden increases in clearance become apparent as the foot of the tappet and nose of the cam disintegrate. This leads to the problem not being detected until the bitter end by which time other, more serious damage, may be occurring. Certainly in five years I never picked it up and believe me, with all of the horror stories being bandied about I was scrutinising things very closely. Once major damage has occurred other, visible, evidence will be present that can be identified without removing the camboxes and inspecting cams and tappets but early failure does require a strip and inspect.

Getting back to the original point though what does make my blood boil is the fact that it must of been known that the problem was unsolveable very early in the piece and by mid 2010 they were already fitting shims under the inlet valve springs and marking the heads to make them identifiable as such. That would seem to indicate to me that they had already designed the *Fix*, (Who knows?! They may of had it ready to roll even before the first tappet change to the DLC ones from the original cast iron ones and decided to try DLC because it was cheaper!) but they continued selling flawed machines for a further two years and I'm sorry, I really can't see any way that they can't of known about it. I have my ideas about why they chose to do that but they are just ideas, I really don't know.

The second thing that really pisses me off is that they make owners and the people who are trying to fix things jump through hoops backwards with a burning branch stuck up their blurter to get their belated and grudgingly offered *Upgrade* kits supplied and if you can't dot every I and cross every T then you get thrown to the lions. Unconscionable!

The 1200 Nuovo Hi-Cam is a wonderful motor. It's performance and character are fantastic and like all Guzzi motors since time immemorial despite their *Low* power output they still punch well above their weight and are a joy to ride, operate and even work on. It is that, and the fact that I think they have been packaged very well in the machines that have been offered with the engine in, that keeps me loyal to the brand and still a cheer-leader for the engine itself. A correctly tuned and mapped 1200 is a truly outstanding motorbike and I for one will part from mine when it is pried from my 'Cold, dead fingers'. That doesn't mean that anybody else should, or will, feel the same way.

I feel that the parent company has behaved very, very shabbily. The denials and dodging of responsibility makes my skin crawl. I can perfectly understand people, even those loyal to the brand, simply walking away in disgust.

Perhaps that's just the way things are nowadays though? I have no idea, I'm aware I'm a product of a different age. Sad to see the brand I've stuck with for most of my life being tortured to death by a bunch of bean counters and corporate suits.

Pete

Pete, if everyone had access to someone like you where they could take their bikes, no one would care about much if this.

But the plain facts are that it isn't so nor will it be.

MG never opened up a single engine to see how it faired after even basic testing? You bet they did and they said screw the customer, by the time most figure it out they'll have to pay.

Some will pay. Others will suffer and then move on and that is where the damage takes place. Few of them will recommend a MG product. The reputation of the brand goes down the crapper and rightfully so.

I hear the people that say this or that brand has had problems in the past. I get it but MG has been around as long as any and much longer than most so that doesn't hold water.

The flat tappet 8v bikes are all lemons because unless you did the upgrade or you bet your hard earned money on the person that did, confidence lasts as long as it takes to sell the thing and move on. We can kick those who leave the brand straight in the rear end but who gets damaged? Everyone else with a MG.

[Chuck in Indiana]

a burning branch stuck up their blurter

  You have a way with words, Pete..