Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: twodogs on June 08, 2021, 01:04:10 PM

Title: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 08, 2021, 01:04:10 PM
Well I started to play with the new to me convert, so far everything is looking pretty good to me even though I'm not sure of a lot of it, I have a can of deoxit and will clean up everything with the wiring but so far what I've played with has been clean. I have all the gaskets and crush washers and fluids except trans fluid, I'm not sure what works the best since simple Dexron is no more, any help there would be of a great help.I sold the g5 that I had for a little bit to a member here and it sounds like he has had to build it from the ground up and I thought the bike was fine if that tells you anything  :violent1: so I'm open to any suggestions. Thanks ahead of time.
Bruce
(https://i.ibb.co/2Nwc7q6/16231752512442022514523.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2Nwc7q6)

(https://i.ibb.co/vszvcx4/1623175294889143465494.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vszvcx4)

(https://i.ibb.co/jgVq2Fx/1623175336244592063099.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jgVq2Fx)

(https://i.ibb.co/NLNM9mJ/16231753744422146849108.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NLNM9mJ)

(https://i.ibb.co/t2WZ10K/16231754050651024884985.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t2WZ10K)
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: TOMB on June 08, 2021, 01:21:53 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/59xqpTx/20210608-141341.jpg) (https://ibb.co/59xqpTx)

(https://i.ibb.co/f8jm1dY/20210608-141329.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f8jm1dY)

(https://i.ibb.co/qBjR3DT/TOMS-CONVERT.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qBjR3DT)

My convert is a 1977 I've been using the Napa ATF in the picture below over 40,000 miles I plan at the end of the year to change it over to the ATF from Valvoline the max life give it a try other people will chime in from what they've used suggest don't do that it'll blow up and leave your parts all over the road you should use  your good judgment and go forward from there.
Besides you don't know if it has ever been changed so that's one item to consider and if it has been changed and you have no history you really don't know what's in there to begin with you should good judgment things will work out and others will chime in
TOMB
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 08, 2021, 02:23:18 PM
Thanks TOMB, the po told me that he had changed all the hoses and seals? But he also said he put type F back in it, I was told it would be ok but it don't sound right to me so I'm going to flush the system, where is this mesh screen that is supposed to be cleaned?
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 08, 2021, 04:08:18 PM
I've been using the same thing as TOMB - the NAPA or similar Dex III/Mercon. I have some Redline D4 ATF that I plan to try soon. Not sure I'd use Type F.

The screen to clean is part of the largest/lowest hex plug on the tank.

Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 08, 2021, 04:35:15 PM
Thanks Charlie, I'll get some of  it tomorrow, I hate to ask you or TOMB but what earl are you 2 running, I don't want to start a thread. I have the 7100 motul 10w60 but was told not to run full syn.
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: spmoto on June 08, 2021, 05:04:55 PM
Hey Bruce,
I can't speak to the ATF question, but as far as earl goes I've been using Mobil One, stem to stern, for decades based on the recommendation of Manfred Hecht at of Raceco fame. This includes many Guzzi's of similar vintage to yours.
Steve M
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 08, 2021, 05:39:48 PM
Thanks Steve, that's all I ever run in my Harleys when I had them, I know some here have been running Guzzi for alot of miles and I figured I would follow suit  :boozing:
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: TOMB on June 08, 2021, 06:27:23 PM
@twodogs

For oil usage

Engine Mobil 1 15-50 syn  (Walmart)
Gearbox Mobil 1 75-90 syn (Walmart- Auto zone Etc.) DONT OVERFILL
Rear end Diff Mobil 1 75-90 syn (same as above)
ATF usage see my response above

For your own piece of mind  (CHECK TO SEE IF YOUR BIKE HAS THE NEWER TYPE OF FLYWHEEL) YOU'LL BE HAPPY IF IT DOES.
the earlier flywheel was prone to disintegrating.

Look in my signature below for the bikes and mileages , Mobil 1 products was used in every one .

TOMB



Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 08, 2021, 07:40:38 PM
Thanks TOMB, next question, how much do each hold? Notice a pattern here, no manual  :violent1:
Thanks.
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: Cal3Me on June 08, 2021, 10:01:46 PM
Bruce needs to get a copy of Guzziolgy for all his info on his new bike ............ :boozing:
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 08, 2021, 10:24:59 PM
I just use Rotella T4 in the engine, Bel-Ray Gear Saver in the transmission and rear drive. Capacities are in the owner's manual:
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/owners_manual_v1000-i-convert_1975-06_en.pdf


(https://i.ibb.co/jHhYCpb/Screenshot-2021-06-08-at-23-24-04-owners-manual-v1000-i-convert-1975-06-en-pdf.png) (https://ibb.co/jHhYCpb)
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 09, 2021, 04:53:33 AM
Doh! Thanks for the reminder, I totally forgot I had guzziology, now I have to remember where I stored it.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: chuck peterson on June 09, 2021, 09:40:10 AM
I’d suggest…. :popcorn:

Wait on the atf fluid change. Spec is once every 16k, or some such. It’s not an immediate concern if you’re moto-tating down the road and it’s a good looking red. The older trans fluids worked better, it seemed to me. My 2nd vert w new fluids ranged 32-35 mpg, while my first was a solid 42mpg all the time

However, someone recently posted about checking for water in the atf tank. Great idea. H2O is heavier. Never considered this as a possibility

It’s possible whatz in there now could be working better than new fluids

Ymmv…my experience was 10 years ago, not with these two newish fluids

Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: ozarquebus on June 09, 2021, 10:02:29 AM
This question has probably been asked before. Has anyone ever experimented with adding pure silicone oil to the ATF in a Convert?


(https://i.ibb.co/tJssssD/45-NA66-AS02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tJssssD)
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 09, 2021, 10:33:28 AM
I already have the rottela t4 and just picked up the valvoine max atf, never heard anything about running the silicon. After I finish up on the wiring clean up I'm going to start on the fluids, everything looks good so far. I went to title the bike and it got flagged, they say it has been purged from the system, so now I wait just like the 76 they have to make sure it's a motorcycle  :violent1:
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 09, 2021, 11:12:34 AM
Well I pulled the front cover and everything to me looks good, what do you guys think? I talked to the PO and he said he had it all serviced and went through the air filter box with a new filter, I'm still going to change the fluids though  :boozing:
(https://i.ibb.co/ysRFM1J/1623254986107541074467.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ysRFM1J)

(https://i.ibb.co/ZLN2wrd/16232550380221490702465.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZLN2wrd)

(https://i.ibb.co/w4pPdL1/16232550736561524280287.jpg) (https://ibb.co/w4pPdL1)

(https://i.ibb.co/zG2Q6nW/16232551131231369378770.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zG2Q6nW)
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 09, 2021, 11:51:09 AM
Inspection plug out, is this good or bad?
(https://i.ibb.co/3f90gWR/1623257274546790032521.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3f90gWR)

(https://i.ibb.co/WkTqrHH/16232573295591749263898.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WkTqrHH)

Sorry, I'm trying to take pics with a iPad.
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: TOMB on June 09, 2021, 02:47:54 PM
@twodogs

Looking at your pictures i would say you have the later flywheel

It one of the three types that i know of

1. Heavy with a separate bolt on starter ring. I believe this is what you have. Good

2. Heavy flywheel with the starter ring (teeth ) machined directly to the flywheel.   .This is the version that I'm using. Good

3. The original version. This is the one you don't want.  Bad

Ohers may disagree but that's my 2cts.

TOMB
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 09, 2021, 05:41:20 PM
Thanks TOMB, that's good to know, plus I found my guzziology book, I put it away after I got it because it was not really for the newer models but now it is starting to make sense  :bike-037:
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 10, 2021, 03:14:32 PM
Well I buttoned everything back up and went down the street and back a few times and it did not seem like it was charging, so I'm trying to put the meter on it and rev it up by myself and only got 12.7 so I went back in and unplugged the 3 wire connection which I should have done the first time but it looked so good, and I found the whole back side melted, so I replaced the ends and wala it is charging at 14.7 at a higher rev.now I'm just waiting on dot to give me a plate for it so I can give it a proper test ride.  :boozing:
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: jguzzi on June 10, 2021, 03:39:55 PM
This is a great thread for us Convert owners. Pics are really helpful.  Twodogs can you tell me where your 2 throttle cables enter under the tank area.....I can see they are zip tied on the spine but I am wondering if they enter at the front of the tank in the open area near where the key/ignition is or under the tank on the side.  Also, TOMB can you tell me what you looked at to determine the flywheel?  Mine is 1978 so I assume it is the latter one.....can you tell by looking in the inspection hole?
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: fotoguzzi on June 10, 2021, 03:52:14 PM
I too believe you have the heavy FW. This is the one with ring as part of the FW
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-KF6xBmc/0/M/i-KF6xBmc-M.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-KF6xBmc/A)

The early light flywheel has a narrower edge, seen here, ignore the tabs, I put those on to trigger the FW sensor when I put it on an EV 1100 motor to build the SPEVert.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-B3gB9Kz/0/M/i-B3gB9Kz-M.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-B3gB9Kz/A)

SPEVert,
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-7WNfStc/0/S/i-7WNfStc-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-7WNfStc/A)
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 10, 2021, 04:21:16 PM
Hi jguzzi, the po had it set up like this and then split under the tank, nice foto, love that look.
Bruce
(https://i.ibb.co/C8f6dY4/16233600372921276121349.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C8f6dY4)
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 13, 2021, 11:48:22 AM
Well I had this windshield laying around for about 8 or 9 years that I took off the wife's sportster when I sold it and the kid that bought it didn't want it, so I pulled it off and kept it, well today I was wondering what it would look like on the convert, the bottom is blacked out so it kinda hides the breadbox in front.I think it was a Memphis shade but I can't remember, so what do you folks think  :boozing:
Bruce
(https://i.ibb.co/0syqnx3/16236028006311031233956.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0syqnx3)

(https://i.ibb.co/GddRnqx/16236028354081625943200.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GddRnqx)

(https://i.ibb.co/WHmp5SR/16236028713811941549284.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WHmp5SR)
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: brider on June 14, 2021, 12:04:15 PM

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-B3gB9Kz/0/M/i-B3gB9Kz-M.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-B3gB9Kz/A)


Notice the additional non-factory brazing around the center mounting boss, at the juncture between the ~2-in diameter boss and the flywheel pan. This is what I did on my '77 Convert, in an effort to still use the lighter failure-prone flywheel. People said you could feel the difference between the lighter flywheel and one of the heavier later versions, but I couldn't. It is really amazing that MG let the lighter flywheels leave the factory without this critical reinforcement. Seems to me it would have been MUCH cheaper production-wise to just add this bit of reinforcement, rather than commit to machined-aluminum flywheels.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: Don G on June 14, 2021, 12:19:07 PM
Guzzi is famous for letting half baked stuff out the door, just be glad that they finally rectified the flywheel problem, now for the Hokey pump drive.........   DonG
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: Tom H on June 14, 2021, 12:46:32 PM
On the shield.

The question is....Do YOU like it??

Looks fine to me. I'd go with it. I'm pretty sure Memphis Shades. They do a lot of shields with the colored lower section.

Tom
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: Bulldog9 on June 14, 2021, 08:10:50 PM
Looks great!

I concur that you have the heavy drive plate. I have a 76 which has the thin plate, but AFAIK, it is the original and unmolested w/ 45K miles now. Some believe that the center plate tears out when the unit is not perfectly aligned. Dave R (Guzziology) reported about a few that lasted the life of the bike.  I have an heavy unit on the shelf if I ever need, or end up tearing the bike down.

I also have a small bar mounted windscreen I recycled out of my 'boxoparts' I like how the darker section bridges the gap from the headlight to the gauge.

(https://i.ibb.co/mTTkJpq/IMG-20200513-144255774.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mTTkJpq)


If you (or anyone else) are interested I have a windjammer, king/queen seat and rear luggage rack with the lollipop turn signals gathering dust. I'm keeping the DB Bags and Bench seat, but won't use the Fairing, rack or K/Q seat. Fairing has the wire harness.

(https://i.ibb.co/g3mB6J7/IMG-20200306-170603068.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g3mB6J7)


Some pics of the items mounted before I removed.

(https://i.ibb.co/NnvWYtq/IMG-20200305-173637517.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NnvWYtq)

(https://i.ibb.co/vPvcsQ2/IMG-20200305-173645564.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vPvcsQ2)

(https://i.ibb.co/WzyvPYy/IMG-20200305-173656052.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WzyvPYy)


Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 15, 2021, 08:37:30 AM
I won't know if I like the shield till I ride it, I'm still waiting on the plate from dot. I think I'll drop it down closer to the headlight bucket like on yours bulldog, I like your bags better, mine are about the size of a kids lunch box. :boozing:
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 19, 2021, 12:44:25 PM
Ok, so I forgot to post when I was changing the fluids the transmission where the clutch is had a bit of metal on the magnetic fill plug and when I drained it there was a bit more in my container, is this something to be concerned about? All the fluids I drained looked like everything had just been done and looked real clean except for some metal swarf, what do you folks think?
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 19, 2021, 01:22:22 PM
The clutch runs dry, I'm guessing you mean that you drained the gear oil from the high/low gearbox section. Metal fillings could mean that someone has been shifting on the fly, hopefully that's all.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: fotoguzzi on June 19, 2021, 06:22:17 PM
Notice the additional non-factory brazing around the center mounting boss, at the juncture between the ~2-in diameter boss and the flywheel pan. This is what I did on my '77 Convert, in an effort to still use the lighter failure-prone flywheel. People said you could feel the difference between the lighter flywheel and one of the heavier later versions, but I couldn't. It is really amazing that MG let the lighter flywheels leave the factory without this critical reinforcement. Seems to me it would have been MUCH cheaper production-wise to just add this bit of reinforcement, rather than commit to machined-aluminum flywheels.
i had that done, I believe it is actually brazed not weld so the pan wouldn't warp with the heat. I had a pro welder do it, it's also strengthened on the in side. Then had it balanced before using it.

If any one wants to try that I have a couple nice light stamped flywheels for your attempt.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 20, 2021, 08:20:00 AM
Thanks Charlie, that is what I was talking about, the po did not know the history of the bike except that it came out of a auction in Ohio.I did ask him if he ever shifted on the fly and told me no, he knew about that. So what does everyone think about running a full synthetic 10w60 in a convert? I know 1 member runs full synthetic but not 10w60, I have about 50 50 saying no it will leak all over and the other half saying it won't hurt a thing, the only reason I ask is I have 8l of the motul 7100 sitting around. I have the rotella t4 in it now  :boozing:
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: JayDee24ca on June 20, 2021, 04:56:49 PM
Bruce, stick with the Rotella T, its an old flat tappet bike, and the newer oils are lacking in a few essentials for the older machines.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 20, 2021, 06:12:30 PM
Bruce, stick with the Rotella T

That's what I use. Now called T4. Tried Valvoline VR-1 20w50 and my mpg dropped by 3! Back to Rotella this change.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: Irishflyer on June 21, 2021, 10:13:57 PM
That's what I use. Now called T4. Tried Valvoline VR-1 20w50 and my mpg dropped by 3! Back to Rotella this change.

Interesting on the mpg, I am using the same oil on a 96 Cali, mpg is around 40-42, depending on Nebraska winds.. :grin:
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: herk5 on June 21, 2021, 10:35:43 PM
Bruce, glad to hear you found a convert. Now I don’t feel guilty not selling you mine.  :grin:
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 22, 2021, 05:27:05 AM
LOL herk5, as soon as the dot figures it out and titles the bike I'll ride it down so you can have a ride and check it out  :boozing:
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: herk5 on June 22, 2021, 09:04:21 PM
Sounds good, Bring Carl with ya. Looks like fun project.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: Kiwi_Roy on June 24, 2021, 11:21:36 AM
I'm following this thread closely since I picked up a 76 on the island.
Mine has been repainted from a blue to black, the painter left a patch inside one of the side covers blue.
I'm still trying to figure out what milage it has done, everything looks to be in similar condition to yours, odometer shows just over 15,000 miles.
The front Avon tire has an 1987 date code.
I pulled all the coloured plastic bezels out of the dash and rubbed them on 800 grit sandpaper. it made them a little better to see but I think I will switch the lamps to LEDs as soon as I get some time, I did that to all my older Guzzi's.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on June 24, 2021, 01:34:23 PM
Hi KR, I'm still waiting for Ia DOT to get their heads out of their a#@&= I've registered several bikes in Iowa that did not have a 17 digit vin. I'm not sure what is going on but it has been more than 2 weeks now  :violent1: now that I figured out the charging problem the bike seems like it is ready to go. I will probably go to led lites once I put some miles on it, plus the hex piece update, but I'm not real sure about that one yet or really what to do about it, my dash lights were bright on mine so far and the mileage shows 9010 miles at the moment, hope to ride it soon, good luck with yours and I hope you enjoy it. :boozing:
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on July 07, 2021, 12:19:26 PM
Finally after 4 weeks and 1 day I finally got the call that the title and plate is at the DMV, so I'm heading into town to pick it up, the only bad thing is I have to head to southern Missouri and won't be back till tues or Wed, sick friend.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: rodekyll on July 07, 2021, 07:23:14 PM
misc thoughts.

Someone said they have a heavy flywheel on the shelf and are running the stamped plate.  Trust me -- you want to be proactive on the swap.  The potential damage from a flywheel coming off is astounding.

Someone else suggested that the stamped plate breaks from not being exactly centered.  Yes, it does.  But the main reason is that the outside of the plate can't accelerate as fast as the hub does.  So the solid plate tries to act like a cush drive.  Since there is no give in the plate, it spins the hub portion off with disasterous effect.

ATF -- I've experimented with just about everything that doesn't involve a hazmat suit to handle.  I've run it on straight hydraulic fluid, power steering fluid, and about every flavor of ATF you can mention.  Type F and tractor hydraulic fluids are the worst.  ATF+4 and other Dex/Merc varieties seem to work ok.  I prefer aircraft hydraulic fluid, but I don't recommend it anymore because it's becoming very hard to source.  When you need fluid, it's easier to find a NAPA than an airstrip with a service center.  When experimenting, watch for overheating, slipping, and foaming.  Someone mentioned losing 3mpg with a fluid switch.  That's a good indication of slipping.  Having gauges for this helps -- tranny pressure and temp, and a tach.

85% of Convert problems are leaky pump o-rings.  When in doubt, change them out.

That VIN issue can be huge.  I think I have the only 1974 Convert out there.  Even after I showed DMV the original title and the history of the 'vert, they issued the title for a year before the bike was invented.  Now they say it's cast in stone and can't be changed.

The OP most likely has the heavy flywheel.  That's great for longevity, but not so good for performance.  The heavy flywheel has no brake effect.  In fact, it has the opposite -- a "coast" effect.  That's why the flywheels on the shifty BB's have gone from 12+ pounds to about 4 pounds over the years.  My 1200 Breva for example has only enough structure for the ring gear and a clutch surface.  There's no reason why a Convert can't have the same.  In fact, with a larger engine, I've sheared the flywheel bolts off of two crankshafts because the heavy plate can't spin up as fast as the engine does.  I've put my flywheels on various diets, cutting the fat by half+  (11.5# >5.2 and 4.5 on my last two).   If you do that, don't mess with the hub part.  The best effect for reducing rotating mass comes from material removed farthest from the center.  The good news is that on a Convert, there's a lot of mass near the ring gear.

For the oil thread part of the discussion, I'm a big fan of Castrol GTX 10/40 in the cold weather, and 20/50 in the summer.  My original engine's 175k miles will do my arguing for me.

(https://i.ibb.co/zQZrpg9/done-close-front.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zQZrpg9)
   You can see the "spokes" of solid metal between the holes.  The area around the ring gear is removed to leave only enough meat to hold the t/c.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on July 07, 2021, 08:14:40 PM

Someone mentioned losing 3mpg with a fluid switch. That's a good indication of slipping. 

As I posted above, I lost 3 mpg by switching from Shell Rotella T4 15w40 to Valvoline VR-1 20w50 in the engine. When I switched back, my mpg went up by 3. Nothing to do with "slipping".
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: rodekyll on July 07, 2021, 08:27:22 PM
Sorry, I wasn't reading close enough.  Reference wrong, but the point stands -- a slipping TC will affect your fuel economy.  If you change ATF type and your economy suffers, it's probably not an efficient fluid.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on July 08, 2021, 07:24:53 AM
Good advice all, I drained the type F the po had in it and went with the valvoline max and the t4 for the engine. I'm not going to beat it, just putt around and go from there  :boozing:
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on July 13, 2021, 10:46:25 AM
Ok I finally got my tags, I went to the local BP and put straight premium no ethanol in her, then I went for a 10 mile shake down run and everything seemed in order till I caught a light, sat there for a little less than a minute and went to take off and it didn't really want to go, let off the gas and then tried again and she took off like normal, any ideas from you folks? I'm waiting for the wife and as soon as she is ready I'm going for a longer ride, so far all the fluids are up and no leaks anywhere  :boozing:
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: rodekyll on July 13, 2021, 10:36:30 PM
When you say "didn't want to go", what do you mean?
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on July 14, 2021, 06:10:26 AM
Real sluggish, pull in the clutch and blip the throttle and release the clutch and everything thing is normal, only happens when I sat at a light for 30 seconds or more,  slowing down and stop for a second and take off,no problem, oh by the way. Welcome back.
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: rodekyll on July 14, 2021, 12:59:31 PM
Let's start with the easy stuff.

You changed from type F to something else.  How did you purge the old fluid?  If they mixed, it's contaminated.

What is the fluid level?  It MUST NOT reach the top mark on the stick.  I keep mine near the bottom.  As long as I can see any on the stick it's good.

Is there any foam when you look in the tank IMMEDIATELY after stopping the bike?  That could be  a leaky banjo (sucks air but doesn't leak fluid), too much fluid in the tank, or a bad pump flange o-ring.

Check these things first and report, please.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on July 14, 2021, 01:29:32 PM
Thanks rodekell, there was no foam and the cooler and tank was not hot but it is at the top mark on the dip stick and I'm going to take it down to the bottom mark and report back, thanks for the info.
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on July 17, 2021, 08:19:20 AM
Well I dropped the fluid down to the add mark and did a 70 mile stop and go ride (painful) and it only paused for a split second once and seems to take off better now with no hesitation, now I need to dial the carbs in, stalls once in a while, seems to be out of sync, trying to remember where the starting point was.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: rodekyll on July 17, 2021, 12:51:22 PM
Thanks for the report, and goodonya for sorting it out.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on July 20, 2021, 01:57:17 PM
Well I took the convert out with a couple of riders to to a cool shop about 45 miles away with speeds up to 70mph and everything seemed great, marked it's spot at the shop with a drop from the breather tube and on the way back at about 15 miles it started slowing down like it wasn't getting gas, kept playing with it to another shop and pulled the plugs and they looked pretty good, so went ahead and change them with new and took off, the last 30 miles it would not run above 50if I gave it any more throttle then off idle and then ever once in awhile it would run up to 70 and then start all over again like it was not getting fuel, so I went through town at slower speeds and limped her home. Back to the drawing board.
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: rodekyll on July 20, 2021, 02:16:27 PM
That's probably not the fault of the ATF.

It reads like simple fuel starvation.  Are both petcocks open?  Are they flowing fuel?  Filters? Banjo screens?  float bowl volume?
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: jwinwi on July 20, 2021, 02:29:22 PM
Well I took the convert out with a couple of riders to to a cool shop about 45 miles away with speeds up to 70mph and everything seemed great, marked it's spot at the shop with a drop from the breather tube and on the way back at about 15 miles it started slowing down like it wasn't getting gas, kept playing with it to another shop and pulled the plugs and they looked pretty good, so went ahead and change them with new and took off, the last 30 miles it would not run above 50if I gave it any more throttle then off idle and then ever once in awhile it would run up to 70 and then start all over again like it was not getting fuel, so I went through town at slower speeds and limped her home. Back to the drawing board.
Bruce

Tankbag on the tank? I've had the neoprene tank bag pad seal off the vent on the gas cap which caused similar symptoms... :popcorn:
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on July 20, 2021, 03:16:46 PM
Newer petcocks and new fuel filters, opened the cap going down the road, no real change, atf tank and cooler felt good,warm but not hot, no tank bag, was going to get it back on the lift and drop the float blows and take a peek inside, the fuel lines look fairly new, I refueled it just cause so I'll have to drop some fuel if I take the carbs off if something shows up in the floats and I'll drop a petcock and check the screen on the carbs, after that I'll probably be lost if I don't find something.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: rodekyll on July 20, 2021, 03:39:16 PM
Are the fuel filters on backwards?  Are the screens on the petcocks?  are you running with both sides open?  does it make a difference if you move the petcocks to reserve?
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on July 20, 2021, 04:39:09 PM
Petcocks were on and it did not make a difference if switched to reserve , fuel filters on correct, I have to drop almost 6 gallons before I pull a petcock, no place to put fuel yet then I'll check the screens, my mower and gas cans are all full and I just mowed, so I'll take it out tomorrow and try and burn some fuel off, seemed to run good till today's blast so I'm hoping I can just putt around for a bit and go from there. I really appreciate your input rodekyll, I look at it that you have your masters degree and I'm just starting 1st grade, but I am willing to listen and learn. :boozing:
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: rodekyll on July 20, 2021, 05:07:41 PM
You don't need to dump fuel to check petcock function.

Turn the petcocks off
remove the banjo at the carbs
turn one petcock on/off and then the other, catching the gas in identical containers l/r.  Compare and empty containers between tests.

There should be a solid, gravity flow from both petcocks to both sides.  If the flow does not look reasonable, or it's not balanced, there's a petcock or tank vent issue.  Also look to see if crud or water is draining with the gas.  I got some once that was so bad it looked like cow piss with chunks when I drained it.  If all is good, the problem, if indeed it is fuel, is in the carbs or perhaps the fuel itself.
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: moto on July 20, 2021, 06:00:54 PM
You can time the flow with a measuring cup to see if it is sufficient. For example, to go 70 mph at 35 mpg would take 2 gallons per hour. That's 32 cups of gasoline per hour, or a rate of 1 cup every one-thirtysecondth of an hour. Using 1 thirtieth as an approximation, that's about 2 minutes to fill an 8-ounce cup. If both petcocks together can't do that you may have a problem.

Moto
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on July 21, 2021, 08:45:02 AM
1st round, I pulled the right side while sitting on the bike fuel line and measured about 6 ounces in 15 seconds with a stop watch then went to the left side and measured a hair over 5 ounces in 15 seconds, there was no water or debris in the gas that I could see after letting each time sit for about 3 minutes, so I'm not sure if the petcock screens have debris on them, seemed to me to flow pretty good to me, what do you folks think? I think I'm going to take it out and see if I can replicate the problem and then do the flow test again if it acts up again, I've run the bike for 220 miles so far with only the last 30 with the problem of not being able to get fuel, that feeling anyway, plus when I take it out again and burn more fuel off it will help if I have to remove the tank, who thought that about 6 gallons in a tank could weigh so much  :rolleyes:
Bruce
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: moto on July 21, 2021, 09:59:42 AM
1st round, I pulled the right side while sitting on the bike fuel line and measured about 6 ounces in 15 seconds with a stop watch then went to the left side and measured a hair over 5 ounces in 15 seconds, there was no water or debris in the gas that I could see after letting each time sit for about 3 minutes, so I'm not sure if the petcock screens have debris on them, seemed to me to flow pretty good to me, what do you folks think? I think I'm going to take it out and see if I can replicate the problem and then do the flow test again if it acts up again, I've run the bike for 220 miles so far with only the last 30 with the problem of not being able to get fuel, that feeling anyway, plus when I take it out again and burn more fuel off it will help if I have to remove the tank, who thought that about 6 gallons in a tank could weigh so much  :rolleyes:
Bruce

The rate I calculated was 2 gallons per hour, to support a (dismal) 35 mpg at 70 mph. Since there are 128 ounces in a gallon, that rate is 256 ounces per hour, or 4.27 ounces per minute, or 1.07 ounces per 15 seconds. So your flow at the petcock is five or six times as great (on each side) as your actual total requirement at that speed. It is also more than enough to support 100 mph at any reasonable mpg figure.

But what about the flow rate after the fuel leaves the petcock? For that, just take off the drain plugs at the bottom of each carburetor in turn, and turn on the petcocks without trying to start the engine. If you again see flow rates of multiple ounces per 15 seconds through each carb, then your problem isn't fuel flow. On the other hand, if you get down near or below 1 ounce per 15 seconds in either carb you can suspect a clogged filter or float valve or other obstruction in the flow below the petcock.

It is barely possible that you could have a flow problem that only manifests itself when both carburetors are demanding fuel. To check for that, open both the drain plugs at once and measure the combined flow. Anything above 1 ounce per 15 seconds in total supports 70 mph at 35 mpg, but you should really see substantially more than that for higher speeds.

Moto
Title: Re: 77 convert
Post by: twodogs on July 21, 2021, 11:25:24 AM
Thanks for the reply moto, I could not get to the left side because of the stock air box so I did both sides after the fuel filters I put on and I was thinking that they were the problem, anyway I forgot to mention I put sea foam in it yesterday, so I took off this morning just to see if those filters were the problem and I got about 1 mile out of town and it would not go so I turned around to nurse it back home and it started picking up, so I turned back around and gave her hell in 1st and it run like a scalded dog (vert) style anyway, so after about 15 miles of that I stopped and put it in 2nd and rode for another 55 miles at 70 and then backing off and charging back up to 70 and it never missed a beat and then the speedometer cable broke, so I got a cable coming and I will try it again,plus I need to tighten the neck bearings up a little, gets a little weird above 70. I always thought seafoam was all between the ears but maybe it knocked some crap loose and just took it awhile to work, don't know for sure but after I take care of the neck bearings and speedo cable I'll take her back out and try it again. Thanks for the help folks.
Bruce