Author Topic: Moto Guzzi T vs T3  (Read 1206 times)

Offline SydBarrett

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2022, 10:12:54 AM »
Hey Syd

Sounds like youíve decided but my 2c as a long term owner, I fitted a T drum rear to my 1978 Le Mans in 1980, still my main transport, have 3 other Guzzis on the road, one only still with linked brakes, I donít drive cars unless forced.
Twin discs unlinked with 08 calipers are as much brakes as I could use, master cylinder, discs and pads easily changed for as good as mine.
Twin leader rear drum can be set up fierce or gentle with different linings, adjustment etc. My favourite rear brake, bar none.

Alright, the rear drum is good but of course I need to drive thinking I have a 50 years old rear brake style.

Re your original question, only toolboxes and drum brake affect weight, negligible difference between two , where did you get 25kg difference ?
Speaking of toolboxes, a massive advantage imho, steel panels on T3 achieve nothing. Useful storage space is important to me.

I looked at different websites and they reported different weights. A friend gave me the link for the T and T3 maintenance boom and actually the T3 is heavier. T is 235kg and T3 is 243kg. Full weight.

Comfort for two, original seats identical to all intents, aftermarket or specialist seat recovers nearly infinite, footrest position identical so absolutely no difference
To achieve V1000 engine, all you need is 950 kit, a wise man would overhaul the lot at same time (this kit solves chrome issue too)
UJ difference is relevant if you do big miles, doesnít sound as if thatís the case, if you do need to buy another ďsmallĒ one it will probably outlive you.
There are many improvements that can be made to either but none I can think of model specific apart from the above
Buy the T
My only doubt was the brake system, 3disks vs 2 disks plus drum. If the driver position is the same and perfomances are the same, I would just go with the one itís in better condition.

These guys wont be the ones left with a useless lump of an engine by not paying heed to advice that is based in long term Guzzi experience.
 
I know you are new to the forum, but when someone with the experience of Frenchfrog gives you advice, it pays to listen. 

I am not saying I am not listening, in fact, I have already checked the Gilardoni 850 and 950 kit.
I have notice that in Italy it does not seem to be an issue.

My chrome l bores were juiced at around 45k miles...the bike had never been laid up for long, ran perfectly but I had to check and there it was, clear to see.I fitted gillardoni big bores without a rebalence and it was fine if a bit more vibey.I would certainly rebalance the crank now simply because it makes for a smoother engine...at the time I was strapped for cash and needed the bike back on the road as it was my daily rider.
Good to know, the rebalancing consists only on the crank? Did you have to change other parts a part from bores and cylinders?
Are the extra 100cc noticeable?

From FrenchfrogAbout the same experience with my T-3 except I made it to about 70K. I did not rebalance either and notice a bit more vibration. If I had to do it over again I would have also had the crank balanced. Going on 40K after the engine redo and running great.
GliderJohn
Were your bores juiced as well? How do you rebalance the crank?

I am the overthink type of guy. I need to know the small details before I buy something, expecially for a bike. It annoys me as well :grin:
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Offline Frenchfrog

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2022, 10:13:40 AM »
Mines gone up to over 100k and no issues ....then I got LM heads and 88 pistons and the vibrations are much worse,Still have not rebalanced but really must do  :grin:

Offline Frenchfrog

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2022, 10:22:28 AM »
I tend to overthink too Sy but that is a good thing.
Rebalance concerns the crank but for the best job it seems that you should send the flywheel too.I've even heard of some adding on the alternator rotor too. The thing that matters is piston weight and apparently some big bore kits keep the weights the same , so rebalencing is not needed then. You just need good scales and check the comparative weights of all the components.The Gudgeon pins also vary in weight !
I didn't notice any power difference...if anything that engine was sweetest running as an 850 with the original airbox...
BTW I also changed over the springs in the distributor to LM ones and retimed the bike to that spec at one point and it was sharper.The T 3 set up was likely due to emissions that the T was was having problems passing ( why that didn't effect the LM is anyone's guess ).

Offline SydBarrett

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2022, 10:44:37 AM »
I tend to overthink too Sy but that is a good thing.
Rebalance concerns the crank but for the best job it seems that you should send the flywheel too.I've even heard of some adding on the alternator rotor too. The thing that matters is piston weight and apparently some big bore kits keep the weights the same , so rebalencing is not needed then. You just need good scales and check the comparative weights of all the components.The Gudgeon pins also vary in weight !
I didn't notice any power difference...if anything that engine was sweetest running as an 850 with the original airbox...
BTW I also changed over the springs in the distributor to LM ones and retimed the bike to that spec at one point and it was sharper.The T 3 set up was likely due to emissions that the T was was having problems passing ( why that didn't effect the LM is anyone's guess ).

Is the T still having issue passing the emission test? The one I may buy did pass it two years ago.
I may buy the kit from officine08 which uses the Gilardoni kit.
Overthinking is a good thing. I started from the V7 2021 and I travelled back to the 1974 because I wanted a carburettor Guzzi. I donít like the 90s models and the 80s have 16Ē front wheels. In the 70s, teste tonde and first V twins models after the V7 and V7 sport.
I know itís a 50y old bike and it needs more effort to drive it but with EFI models itís too easy. You donít really feel the bike. I also have a Vespa150 I have a good training on heaviness, low stability and bad braking 😂. The T3 and V1000 I tried are very stable though.
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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2022, 10:44:37 AM »

Offline Frenchfrog

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2022, 11:01:29 AM »
No idea about the emissions...it's just a theory that Dave Richardson had if my memory is right.
my kits are gillardonis too...good stuff but you do need to have the base of the barrel turned down by about 1/2 mm as the cases on T and T 3 are slightly smaller.
HMB sell the kit with this already done https://hmb-guzzi.de/Cylinder-Kit-88mm-850-T-T3-T4
I'm sure they can advise about the need for a re balence too.

Offline SydBarrett

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2022, 11:19:12 AM »
No idea about the emissions...it's just a theory that Dave Richardson had if my memory is right.
my kits are gillardonis too...good stuff but you do need to have the base of the barrel turned down by about 1/2 mm as the cases on T and T 3 are slightly smaller.
HMB sell the kit with this already done https://hmb-guzzi.de/Cylinder-Kit-88mm-850-T-T3-T4
I'm sure they can advise about the need for a re balence too.

Similar to https://www.officine08.it/p12824_kit-cilindro-e-pistone-completo-per-moto-guzzi-850-t3.html . This is 850, 83mm
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Offline Frenchfrog

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2022, 11:32:30 AM »
Go for that one...no messing with balance and frankly the bore increase is hardly noticeable.Strange that the 83mm is only available from them.When mine was operated on I had no choice really...88mm or get new 83 mm pistons and work on the damaged chrome ones. That was not the usual path back then and would have cost more I think.

Offline SydBarrett

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2022, 12:19:28 PM »
Go for that one...no messing with balance and frankly the bore increase is hardly noticeable.Strange that the 83mm is only available from them.When mine was operated on I had no choice really...88mm or get new 83 mm pistons and work on the damaged chrome ones. That was not the usual path back then and would have cost more I think.

Ok, is it an expensive job to check the chrome on the existing engine?
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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2022, 12:49:11 PM »
Ok, is it an expensive job to check the chrome on the existing engine?

You can use a cheap boroscope to inspect the bores through the spark plug holes, but unless there are chunks of chrome missing it won't tell you much.  The most common chrome bore failure is microscopic bits of chrome that pop off the walls, which can be difficult to see unless under magnification in good lighting.  These bits flowing with the oil form a very destructive grinding medium that eventually destroys everything it touches.

You could drop the oil and inspect the pan of oil in direct sunlight.  A high degree of tiny shiny stuff swirling in the oil can tell you something.  A certain amount of microscopic glinting will be normal, but chrome contamination is pretty obvious once you have seen it. 
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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2022, 01:48:49 PM »
.Strange that the 83mm is only available from them.When mine was operated on I had no choice really.

If you follow the link that Syd posted, at the bottom it says the 83mm kit isn't expected to be available until at least November. But the 88mm kit IS available, and same price.
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Offline cliffrod

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2022, 02:27:05 PM »
They both have chrome bores. I won't upgrade if I don't need to.
If you havenít seen this thread & ongoing address of the original chrome plated cylinders of the comparably-equipped V7 Sport engine,  you should read it and decide accordingly.  At this point in time, this is not an issue of if but when failure will occur.  The chrome plated cylinders have to be replaced along with anything else impacted by the situation.  Doing less than a complete job will not solve the problem.   I never knew so learned the hard way.

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115513.0

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« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 02:29:56 PM by cliffrod »
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Offline SydBarrett

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2022, 03:36:04 PM »
You can use a cheap boroscope to inspect the bores through the spark plug holes, but unless there are chunks of chrome missing it won't tell you much.  The most common chrome bore failure is microscopic bits of chrome that pop off the walls, which can be difficult to see unless under magnification in good lighting.  These bits flowing with the oil form a very destructive grinding medium that eventually destroys everything it touches.

You could drop the oil and inspect the pan of oil in direct sunlight.  A high degree of tiny shiny stuff swirling in the oil can tell you something.  A certain amount of microscopic glinting will be normal, but chrome contamination is pretty obvious once you have seen it.
Otherwise the other method is to take the cylinders out?

If you havenít seen this thread & ongoing address of the original chrome plated cylinders of the comparably-equipped V7 Sport engine,  you should read it and decide accordingly.  At this point in time, this is not an issue of if but when failure will occur.  The chrome plated cylinders have to be replaced along with anything else impacted by the situation.  Doing less than a complete job will not solve the problem.   I never knew so learned the hard way.

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115513.0

There is no short cut if you want to ride one of these bikes.

So apparently replacing cylinders and pistons is a must that will costa around 1kÖ but if I have to prevent further damages I must consider it.
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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2022, 03:56:04 PM »


So apparently replacing cylinders and pistons is a must that will costa around 1kÖ but if I have to prevent further damages I must consider it.

By Jove I think you've got it.   :grin:
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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2022, 04:33:51 PM »
So the price for each is 4.5 euro? Equals about $4,540 USD.. that price is too high if it was in the US.. and thatís why I suggested you just buy something ready to ride now..
You could get a pretty nice modern (for a Guzzi) small block for that money, no?
You really want carbs? How about a 90ís big block ? the FI big blocks from 98 on are superior in every way tho.
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Offline cliffrod

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2022, 05:50:18 PM »
So apparently replacing cylinders and pistons is a must that will costa around 1kÖ but if I have to prevent further damages I must consider it.

replacing the cylinders is the LEAST amount of parts & works that may be required.  At this point, if the engine is running with original chrome cylinders, it will probably need more than just new cylinders, pistons & rings.

I only replaced my cylinders, pistons & rings, simply because my bikeís engine was frozen from being parked for a decade.  I didnít see damage below the rings and was not advised (almost 30 yrs ago) about the additional damage that may be present inside the engine.   The bike ran great.  But within a relatively short length of time, I had to pull and rebuild the entire engine- basically redoing everything expect the cylinders, rings and pistons- because of specific damage from chrome particulate that came from the original cylinder walls.

What you spend or donít spend is up to you.  You can get the bike and ride it until it blows- your bike, your rules.  maybe youíll get lucky for a while, but probably not in the long run.  The chrome cylinders issue on these early bikes is not something that can be ignored without consequences.  Thatís why I linked the other thread.  Many here hate to see a new Guzzi fan be given inadequate or inaccurate information.   If we didnít want you to have a good experience, we wouldnít try to help you make well-informed decisions.
1973 V7 Sport  "Now THAT'S a motorcycle!"-  Master Sculptor Giuliano Cecchinelli
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Offline SydBarrett

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2022, 04:13:57 AM »
replacing the cylinders is the LEAST amount of parts & works that may be required.  At this point, if the engine is running with original chrome cylinders, it will probably need more than just new cylinders, pistons & rings.

I only replaced my cylinders, pistons & rings, simply because my bikeís engine was frozen from being parked for a decade.  I didnít see damage below the rings and was not advised (almost 30 yrs ago) about the additional damage that may be present inside the engine.   The bike ran great.  But within a relatively short length of time, I had to pull and rebuild the entire engine- basically redoing everything expect the cylinders, rings and pistons- because of specific damage from chrome particulate that came from the original cylinder walls.

What you spend or donít spend is up to you.  You can get the bike and ride it until it blows- your bike, your rules.  maybe youíll get lucky for a while, but probably not in the long run.  The chrome cylinders issue on these early bikes is not something that can be ignored without consequences.  Thatís why I linked the other thread.  Many here hate to see a new Guzzi fan be given inadequate or inaccurate information.   If we didnít want you to have a good experience, we wouldnít try to help you make well-informed decisions.

Hi Clifford, thank you, I have just read that thread. What other damage can occur from chrome? What shall I suggest my mechanic to do and check?
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Offline cliffrod

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2022, 06:49:45 AM »
Hi Clifford, thank you, I have just read that thread. What other damage can occur from chrome? What shall I suggest my mechanic to do and check?

Just imagine filling your engineís oil with very hard very fine abrasive.  Then imagine what damage can be done by operating that engine for any period of time, especially at higher rpms for hundreds if not thousands or tens of thousands of miles.   Thatís what happens as the chrome plating on the bores fails and enters the oil stream.  It typically happens over a long time, not all at once. 

when the chrome bits enter the oil, everything they contact can be abraded and/or embedded depending upon the respective hardness.  All bearings, crankshaft journals, oil pump, camshaft, followers and more can be damaged.  If your engine has an actual oil filter (?), it may not be as bad.  If no oil filter, the sludge trap in crank will quickly be filled and diminish in effectiveness.  The engine should be stripped, fully inspected, fully cleaned and all necessary parts repaired/replaced. If the engine has not been operated for a long time,  maybe thereís not much damage.  But starting it even once after that long dormancy can cause even more serious & expensive damage.

Itís practical to expect a full engine rebuild and then be thankful if less is needed.  THis is why purchase price can be so important.  At approx $4500, the typical Guzzi owner would expect the engine to be fully sorted, chrome cylinders replaced, other engine issues addressed.   Spending $3000 or more on a full engine service/rebuild is possible, but possibly less if you do the work yourself. 

This isnít some nasty or deliberate conspiracy.  Moto Guzzi unknowingly used a technology that worked fine for the first 10-20 yrs before catastrophic failure became the norm.  When it was clear that the chrome bore method was flawed, they changed methods.  Itís part of what makes these early bikes exclusive now.   
« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 06:52:17 AM by cliffrod »
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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2022, 07:00:35 AM »

BTW I also changed over the springs in the distributor to LM ones and retimed the bike to that spec at one point and it was sharper.The T 3 set up was likely due to emissions that the T was was having problems passing ( why that didn't effect the LM is anyone's guess ).
Not a guess, my friend, the US (California?) was only place at time it mattered, 1974-5 ?
T3, G5, Convert etc were compliant with recirculated breather into airbox. Le Mans and Le Mans 2 never were, hence the cx100 a compliant 950 in Le Mans 2 clothes
The Le Mans3 was first Le Mans to have such (ignition advance was not the issue ) and was therefore sold in USA
Of course many T3s have been converted to open breather but those that havenít still have the hard to get at air filter too

Hi Clifford, thank you, I have just read that thread. What other damage can occur from chrome? What shall I suggest my mechanic to do and check?
Drop a telescopic magnet  through plug hole, every chance cylinders have been changed a long time ago, to check if theyíre big bore 950ís itís easiest to drop sump and measure bore

Alright, the rear drum is good but of course I need to drive thinking I have a 50 years old rear brake style.

Not at all, with good linings, that brake is as good as it gets. Ride it as you would with  a disc without abs
« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 12:22:56 PM by jacksonracingcomau »

Offline cliffrod

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2022, 07:39:44 AM »
Drop a telescopic magnit through plug hole, every chance cylinders have been changed a long time ago, to check if theyíre big bore 950ís itís easiest to drop sump and measure bore

Agreed.  THe older Nikasil (sp?) cylinder replacement kits from Moto Guzzi had no external markings like the new Gilardoni kits do.  You cannot tell  what they are from the outside.  I have those unmarked factory Nikasil cylinders on my V7 Sport.  Gilardoni cylinders, like on my CX 100, have a small external pad with ďGilardoniĒ on it and are simple to identify.
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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2022, 08:40:49 AM »
Once you have spent a portion of you kids college fund you will have a truly wonderful bike.  I kept mine as an 850 and love it just the way it is even though its not a powerhouse. 

Dave Swanson - Northern IL
1935 GTS
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1974 Eldo
1977 Convert
1977 Lemans 1.2
1980 T3 California
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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2022, 08:48:43 AM »
ďOnce you have spent a portion of you kids college fund you will have a truly wonderful bikeď

As others have said, Iíd buy either bike if all of the required work was performed by someone else but buying a T or T-3 for that kind of money and having to do all of this work. Nope. Find a later bike without all of those issues.
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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2022, 08:49:22 AM »
If you follow the link that Syd posted, at the bottom it says the 83mm kit isn't expected to be available until at least November. But the 88mm kit IS available, and same price.

In stock and ready to ship: https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?products_id=3972
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Offline kidsmoke

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2022, 09:52:07 AM »
you mentioned loving a 'V1000' above. By this I assume you mean the G 5, one of the two models that featured the V1000 graphic prominently, the other being the automatic Convert. Have you considered trying to find one instead? Stock with iron bores and 30 mm Dell'Orto carbs. Seems it meets your requirements and omits the chrome concern. Of course it leaves you with everything else a 45 yr old bike may require. Here in the US they are seemingly more plentiful and less expensive than a T or a T3 in good condition.



« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 09:54:55 AM by kidsmoke »
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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2022, 10:17:48 AM »
you mentioned loving a 'V1000' above. By this I assume you mean the G 5, one of the two models that featured the V1000 graphic prominently, the other being the automatic Convert. Have you considered trying to find one instead? Stock with iron bores and 30 mm Dell'Orto carbs. Seems it meets your requirements and omits the chrome concern. Of course it leaves you with everything else a 45 yr old bike may require.

I've been wondering the same thing. I don't know if this one is still available, but I talked to this guy before I found the T3 California (with Gilardoni 949 kit installed) I ended up with. He seemed really nice and if it (the green bike in the photos) is still available, I think the price would be flexible.
https://www.subito.it/moto-e-scooter/varie-moto-guzzi-da-collezione-privata-pisa-432251563.htm

But this raises a question: The G5s we're made in 1980  correct (if not earlier)? Yet everybody seems to say they have cast iron liners. Buta T3 of the same year had chrome? When did Guzzi switch to nigusil/nikasil?
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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2022, 10:30:13 AM »
I've been wondering the same thing. I don't know if this one is still available, but I talked to this guy before I found the T3 California (with Gilardoni 949 kit installed) I ended up with. He seemed really nice and if it (the green bike in the photos) is still available, I think the price would be flexible.
https://www.subito.it/moto-e-scooter/varie-moto-guzzi-da-collezione-privata-pisa-432251563.htm

But this raises a question: The G5s we're made in 1980  correct (if not earlier)? Yet everybody seems to say they have cast iron liners. Buta T3 of the same year had chrome? When did Guzzi switch to nigusil/nikasil?

949 cc round-fins had iron liners up until '80 (production), then went to Nigusil. The US-market 844 cc round-fins had chrome (other than the Le Mans). The US never got the T4 (not sure what it had) and the T5 was square-fin and Nigusil.
Charlie

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2022, 10:53:34 AM »
Thanks Charlie! So a T4 MIGHT be a safe bet for Syd....
1981 T3 California, 1983 Piaggio Apecar P2
Sold: 98 BMW F650, 2012 v7 Classic

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2022, 12:23:57 PM »

My G 5 (pictured above) is a '79 (12/78 build) with iron liners. Same block as the Converts that had been in service since '76.

T4 does sound like it splits the difference. Not sure what country Syd is in...
'79 G5
'85 LMIV
'93 1000S
'00 Jackal

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2022, 01:00:32 PM »
T4 does sound like it splits the difference. Not sure what country Syd is in...

He's in Italy.
1981 T3 California, 1983 Piaggio Apecar P2
Sold: 98 BMW F650, 2012 v7 Classic

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Re: Moto Guzzi T vs T3
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2022, 04:33:25 PM »
From FrenchfrogAbout the same experience with my T-3 except I made it to about 70K. I did not rebalance either and notice a bit more vibration. If I had to do it over again I would have also had the crank balanced. Going on 40K after the engine redo and running great.
GliderJohn

Iíd go for the bike that is in better shape or the one you just like better all else being equal.  Once you get it home it wonít be a comparative exercise.  Plan on a cylinder job and look carefully at brakes, bearings, fuel lines etc.  I think that either bike will be a great looker and cool reliable transport.
Ben Zehnder - Orleans, MA USA
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