Moto Guzzi T vs T3

[SydBarrett]

Hi all,

I am at the point of choosing between a '74 T or a '75 T3.

The T is in good condition, both mechanical and aesthetically. It has a dual front disk, and this version has an oil filter.
The T3 is in good mechanical condition but has little cosmetic work to be done, such as chrome on the fork, exhaust pipes and seat.

A part from the rear drum brake, the brake system, dual gauge (I do prefer the T gauge), side covers, and front and rear tires, what are the other differences between the T and the T3?
I have noticed a weight difference of around 25kg. Is that correct? Is the drum brake that makes the difference or some other component?

[steven c]

 If I remember right the T-3 Generator has a higher output.

[Gliderjohn]

Also have an oil filter in the T-3. Do you know if they still have the chrome bores? If so some major bucks dealing with that.
GliderJohn

[Dave Swanson]

If one has had Gilardoni cylinder upgrade from the original chrome - go with that one. 

[Tkelly]

T went 123,t3 around 100 but had bags and windshield and foot boards.If rear brakes sorted on the T it might make sense.Both had chrome cylinders.T was a Sport with disc front bake and bigger motor,only minus were the terrible colors and rear brake.

[Frenchfrog]

T3 also has a bigger universal joint.Lots of little but very significant changes lik e that would steer me to the T3. But the chrome bore in either would be a major concern as to the price.Updated to Nikasil or steel would be good...otherwise very much less enticeing.

[guzzisteve]

When I bought my 850T in 76 I had to make the same choice. Both new, the T was $2250 and T3 was $2600. For the difference in price I chose the T. It had no EPA crap, taller rear drive, and was timed at 8* and not 2*. More like a LM than the EPA model. At the time I didn't think the brakes were worth the extra cash.

[Frenchfrog]

The T has a nicer dashboard in ally too...but easy enough to meld both models to get the best of both worlds.

[Texas Turnip]

The T has the what I call a suicide side stand. I can't count the amount of T's at rallies that fell over if you didn't have a beer can under the stand. The T-3 with the police stand and the pull back police bars made it a mile eater for me. The passenger part of the seat is horrible according to even drunk lot lizards I picked up.

Tex

[Turin]

Non california/FB T-3s also had the suicide stand. 

I've owned both. Go with whichever needs less work.

[SydBarrett]

Non california/FB T-3s also had the suicide stand. 

I've owned both. Go with whichever needs less work.

Nice, which one did you feel better? Engine-wise, are they the same setup?
Which one is more comfortable for a pillion? Is the triple disk worthed?

T went 123,t3 around 100 but had bags and windshield and foot boards.If rear brakes sorted on the T it might make sense.Both had chrome cylinders.T was a Sport with disc front bake and bigger motor,only minus were the terrible colors and rear brake.

What do you mean T went 123?
They both have chrome bores. I won't upgrade if I don't need to.

Also have an oil filter in the T-3. Do you know if they still have the chrome bores? If so some major bucks dealing with that.
GliderJohn

Early T versions did not have the oil filters. The T does not have the air filter, though.

T3 also has a bigger universal joint.Lots of little but very significant changes lik e that would steer me to the T3. But the chrome bore in either would be a major concern as to the price.Updated to Nikasil or steel would be good...otherwise very much less enticeing.

A part from the triple disk, what changes have they done?

[Turin]

Engine - feels the same, same state of tune. 

Brakes - The single disc and 15mm master cylinder on the 850T feels wooden. The 850T's 15mm master cylinder really wants a second disc and a set of 4 piston calipers. The drum brake in the rear looks great. If you are going to modify upgrade the brakes go with the T.
The T-3's linked brakes wins if you are keeping everything stock.

I wouldn't worry about the u joint unless you plan on doing serious engine work ( high lift cam, bigger carbs, etc. ) and plan on flogging the crap out of it.  I mildly hopped up my 850 T and it's fine.

[SydBarrett]

Engine - feels the same, same state of tune. 

Brakes - The single disc and 15mm master cylinder on the 850T feels wooden. The 850T's 15mm master cylinder really wants a second disc and a set of 4 piston calipers. The drum brake in the rear looks great. If you are going to modify upgrade the brakes go with the T.
The T-3's linked brakes wins if you are keeping everything stock.

I wouldn't worry about the u joint unless you plan on doing serious engine work ( high lift cam, bigger carbs, etc. ) and plan on flogging the crap out of it.  I mildly hopped up my 850 T and it's fine.

The 850T I have seen has s dual front disks.
If I go for the T3, I may delink the breaks as I have never used the linked brake system. On all my bikes, I mainly use the front disk. I use the rear brake only on turns.
What's the u joint?

[Turin]

U-joint - Universal joint for the shaft drive. They upgraded the u joint on the T-3 and all tonti framed bikes since. 850T uses the same as the eldorado/ambassador etc.

If the T has a second disc up front, then that would be my pick.

[SydBarrett]

U-joint - Universal joint for the shaft drive. They upgraded the u joint on the T-3 and all tonti framed bikes since. 850T uses the same as the eldorado/ambassador etc.

If the T has a second disc up front, then that would be my pick.

Is the U-joint better in the T3?
Many people also mentioned that the T rear was higher is that correct? What's more comfortable for a pillion?

[Dave Swanson]

They both have chrome bores. I won't upgrade if I don't need to.

Chrome bores will fail.  It's a given not a possibility.   When they do fail they can destroy your engine in very short order.  When taking on one of these bikes it is imperative to upgrade.  If this does not suit your fancy I would recommend a later bike with Nigusil bores bores from the factory. 

[Frenchfrog]

+ 1 on changing out the bores...expensive but imperative.
The T3 UJ is bigger so more reliable.Bearing in mind that that change happened with the introduction of the 88mm bore for the G 5 and Convert, the T might not be hand grenade either.

[SydBarrett]

+ 1 on changing out the bores...expensive but imperative.
The T3 UJ is bigger so more reliable.Bearing in mind that that change happened with the introduction of the 88mm bore for the G 5 and Convert, the T might not be hand grenade either.

Chrome bores will fail.  It's a given not a possibility.   When they do fail they can destroy your engine in very short order.  When taking on one of these bikes it is imperative to upgrade.  If this does not suit your fancy I would recommend a later bike with Nigusil bores bores from the factory. 

In officine08 has the Gilardoni kit. I could also put the 950cc. I may upgrade it later. https://www.officine08.com/p12823_engine-tuning-kit-moto-guzzi-850-t3-950cc.html

[Turin]

Keep in mind the gilardoni kit only includes enough for one side. You may need to re-balance the engine with the 950cc upgrade.

[fotoguzzi]

Is this your first Moto Guzzi? Then you should get something that’s a rider right now and not needing any work.
Or, what are your riding plans on this thing?
Best find out if Guzzi are right for you before leaping into the deep pocket.
What is the price of these two choices you have?
My first Guzzi was a T back in the 1970’s I couldn’t kill it even tho I tried hard like a crazy kid.

[Tkelly]

123 mph .Rear brake tends to lock up without warning if not adjusted right,which is tricky.

[moto]

T went 123,t3 around 100 but had bags and windshield and foot boards.If rear brakes sorted on the T it might make sense.Both had chrome cylinders.T was a Sport with disc front bake and bigger motor,only minus were the terrible colors and rear brake.

Tom's T3 with bags and windshield may have gone only around 100 mph but a stock T3 did an accurately measured two-way average top speed of 116.9 mph on June 16 1975 at the Motor Industry Research Association proving ground in England. As for his report of 123 mph from an 850 t, I don't know of any accurate tests that showed top speeds, but I do know that the Veglia speedometer is not accurate at high speed.

The T probably went somewhat faster than the T3's 117 mph because it had no air filter and ran with a bigger main jet. But if there is an actual two-way average top speed of 123 mph somewhere in the past literature, I am unaware of it.

All that stuff concerns the motorcycles when they were new. Your choice now is between two used motorcycles that have very similar performance. The integral braking system is an excellent reason to get the T3. You should not reject that advantage before you read this article:

https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/motociclismo_1975-07_850_t3_english.pdf

Moto

[Tkelly]

Cycle World got 123 in August 74 from thr T.

[moto]

Cycle World got 123 in August 74 from thr T.

That's a good source. I'd love to have that article.

EDIT: I just ordered it.

[SydBarrett]

Is this your first Moto Guzzi? Then you should get something that’s a rider right now and not needing any work.
Or, what are your riding plans on this thing?
Best find out if Guzzi are right for you before leaping into the deep pocket.
What is the price of these two choices you have?
My first Guzzi was a T back in the 1970’s I couldn’t kill it even tho I tried hard like a crazy kid.

It will be my first Guzzi but not my first bike. I own a Triumph Scrambler EFI right now. I has a Ducati Monster for 12 years.
I also own a Vespa 150cc.

I have tried 4 Guzzi so far:
- V7 850: Really great, but I don’t want EFI anymore. It changes the way you ride it.
- T5: horrible, it seemed to ride a tank and it looked like it had balance.
- V1000: What a bike, you felt the power when rolling the throttle, balanced and easy to ride.
- T3: Similar to the v1000 but with a less powerful engine. Event though it ‘s only 100cc less I could feel the difference.

At the moment I use it for the weekend ride (50-100km). I live 1km from my office ao no saily commute. Sometimes during the week I go to the main city.

I am not a super sporty guy anymore and I reduced the average speed down to 100km/h.

Both bikes are ready to use. The T3 needs few cosmetics jobs to bring it back to its original state. Both around €4.5k

I have notice that only outside of Italy everyone is concerne about the chrome bores. I have spoken to 3-4 old Guzzi garages and they don’t seem to be bothered. They said: unless it was off for more than 10 years, I don’t see the problem.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Hey Syd

Sounds like you’ve decided but my 2c as a long term owner, I fitted a T drum rear to my 1978 Le Mans in 1980, still my main transport, have 3 other Guzzis on the road, one only still with linked brakes, I don’t drive cars unless forced.
Twin discs unlinked with 08 calipers are as much brakes as I could use, master cylinder, discs and pads easily changed for as good as mine.
Twin leader rear drum can be set up fierce or gentle with different linings, adjustment etc. My favourite rear brake, bar none.
Re your original question, only toolboxes and drum brake affect weight, negligible difference between two , where did you get 25kg difference ?
Speaking of toolboxes, a massive advantage imho, steel panels on T3 achieve nothing. Useful storage space is important to me.
Comfort for two, original seats identical to all intents, aftermarket or specialist seat recovers nearly infinite, footrest position identical so absolutely no difference
To achieve V1000 engine, all you need is 950 kit, a wise man would overhaul the lot at same time (this kit solves chrome issue too)
UJ difference is relevant if you do big miles, doesn’t sound as if that’s the case, if you do need to buy another “small” one it will probably outlive you.
There are many improvements that can be made to either but none I can think of model specific apart from the above
Buy the T

[s1120]

Seems to me from the time I was shopping, that these things have been wrenched on, parts swapped, rebuilt, so many times by this point that its had to compare a T to a T3. Who knows what parts each has. Just go by whatever one is the nicest.

[Dave Swanson]

I have notice that only outside of Italy everyone is concerne about the chrome bores. I have spoken to 3-4 old Guzzi garages and they don’t seem to be bothered. They said: unless it was off for more than 10 years, I don’t see the problem.

These guys wont be the ones left with a useless lump of an engine by not paying heed to advice that is based in long term Guzzi experience.

I know you are new to the forum, but when someone with the experience of Frenchfrog gives you advice, it pays to listen. 

[Frenchfrog]

My chrome bores were juiced at around 45k miles...the bike had never been laid up for long, ran perfectly but I had to check and there it was, clear to see.I fitted gillardoni big bores without a rebalence and it was fine if a bit more vibey.I would certainly rebalance the crank now simply because it makes for a smoother engine...at the time I was strapped for cash and needed the bike back on the road as it was my daily rider.

[Gliderjohn]

From Frenchfrog

My chrome bores were juiced at around 45k miles...the bike had never been laid up for long, ran perfectly but I had to check and there it was, clear to see.I fitted gillardoni big bores without a rebalence and it was fine if a bit more vibey.I would certainly rebalance the crank now simply because it makes for a smoother engine...at the time I was strapped for cash and needed the bike back on the road as it was my daily rider.

About the same experience with my T-3 except I made it to about 70K. I did not rebalance either and notice a bit more vibration. If I had to do it over again I would have also had the crank balanced. Going on 40K after the engine redo and running great.
GliderJohn