Author Topic: California Stone Guzzidiag problem  (Read 1093 times)

Offline Gwilliam

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California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« on: September 07, 2022, 10:35:04 AM »
Hi,
I would be grateful for some help/advice!
I have a 2001 California Stone running the 15M ECU and have been having problems with a lean mixture at low engine speeds/small throttle openings.

I have cleared everything that I can think off on the mechanical side but need to check the CO Trim Setting. I therefore purchased the two cables that I needed from Lonlec.com and downloaded the version 0.50 of Guzzidiag together with the Reader and Writer programs listed in Beetle's New, Improved Guzzidiag Tutorial post.
After much experimentation and re-reading of countless posts, I have got as far as the CO Trim Adjustment screen, with the engine above 60C. However when I select the Start button I get a message telling me that "Active Diagnostics Could Not Be Started" instead of the "Gentleman, please start your engine!" that I was hoping to see. The trim value is showing as 0 but neither the - or + buttons respond and the Start button just brings up the Active Diagnostics message. I have tried using the kill switch as per the instructions, also the ignition switch and with the engine running and off. HELP!
In case it is relevant, the operating screen shows the eight windows that I was expecting to see but only four of them are working: Throttle Voltage, Engine Temperature, Ignition Advance and CO Trim. This may just be because it is an older bike with less available data to display.
I haven't used either the Reader or Writer programs as at this stage I only wanted to check and maybe adjust the CO Trim value. So far it generally shows a zero reading both in its window on the main screen and when I get as far as the adjustment window. It did briefly flash up values of -100 and -120 when the program was closing which could explain my lean running symptoms but it was probably just some glitch in the closedown.
Anyway, I would really appreciate some help from anybody (and that means everybody!) that knows more about this than me!






Offline guzzisteve

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2022, 11:28:00 AM »
Did you shut off all of the anti virus and whatever else is running on your laptop?  All of the windows should have readings, there is a dropdown in each to select what you want to see in each window.
You may have to talk to Beetle he's easy to find on the Griso Ghetto.
Mine works fine. Even my EV has more values than windows to read info
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Offline Gwilliam

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2022, 12:23:27 PM »
Did you shut off all of the anti virus and whatever else is running on your laptop?  All of the windows should have readings, there is a dropdown in each to select what you want to see in each window.
You may have to talk to Beetle he's easy to find on the Griso Ghetto.
Mine works fine. Even my EV has more values than windows to read info

Thanks for your input.
I am getting communication from the ECU as I am using the engine temperature to ensure that the temperature exceeds the 60C before I can proceed with the CO Trim. You are probably correct that if I choose  to use the drop down boxes I could bring the four lower windows into operation. I am also getting sensible values appearing for the Throttle Voltage and Ignition Advance but the CO Trim remains at zero.

Are you able to select the CO Trim and read the existing value on your EV or does it have to be done through the adjustment part of the programme?
I will see if anybody else has experienced a similar issue and whether they found a solution before chasing up Beetle.
Thanks again!

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2022, 01:02:48 PM »
My EV adjusts w/screw on side of ECU. You have to go to a dropdown window on upper left to be able to change trim. I take it you found that. Then it says too cold or "Start your engine".  This is all done w/key on. If not you have to start all over.
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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2022, 01:02:48 PM »

Offline Gwilliam

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2022, 04:10:01 PM »
My EV adjusts w/screw on side of ECU. You have to go to a dropdown window on upper left to be able to change trim. I take it you found that. Then it says too cold or "Start your engine".  This is all done w/key on. If not you have to start all over.

From what I have read that is the earlier ECU. On the 15M fitted to my 2001 Stone there is no mechanical adjustment of the CO Trim. It has to be done electronically using Guzzidiag to read it and adjust it to the best idle position.
Part of the procedure does involve a lockout accompanied by a message stating that the engine temperature must be at least 60C. Once the temperature criteria has been met the following stages include the "Gentleman start your engine" instruction. Unfortunately at that point I am getting the "Active diagnostics could not be started" message and so far I have been unable to get beyond that point.

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2022, 08:02:12 PM »
I have seen some 15M not want to communicate with the diagnostic software. I would keep at it
I also have had 4 customerrs that flipped from + to - in the trim.
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Offline Gwilliam

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2022, 01:24:58 AM »
Yes, I have heard that the 15M has been known to jump to a full lean mixture. That is what prompted me to get involved with Guzzidiag as several people said I should hook it up and check the setting.
It seemed like a good idea at the time!
I am almost there but it is like a computer game where you achieve another level only to be thwarted by the next problem.
I will have another look at the laptop anti virus software to make sure that it is all off. It seems to be letting me read from the ECU but not write to it to change the setting. I also wondered whether the latest 0.50 version of Guzzidiag has changed from the earlier versions. I guess that I could try an earlier version to exclude that possibility.

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2022, 08:20:12 AM »
Sounds like you are doing things right. You need to be up to temperature as you know.
I have not done it for a while so yes, maybe an older version of the software will do it.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline Gwilliam

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2022, 09:44:42 AM »
Sounds like you are doing things right. You need to be up to temperature as you know.
I have not done it for a while so yes, maybe an older version of the software will do it.

Thanks fot that.
If it ever stops raining here I will take the laptop outside and give it another try with the earlier version.
I'll let you know how I get on although you'll probably hear my whoop of success from there anyway - if it works!

Offline Rich A

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2022, 11:13:14 AM »
From what I have read that is the earlier ECU. On the 15M fitted to my 2001 Stone there is no mechanical adjustment of the CO Trim. It has to be done electronically using Guzzidiag to read it and adjust it to the best idle position.
Part of the procedure does involve a lockout accompanied by a message stating that the engine temperature must be at least 60C. Once the temperature criteria has been met the following stages include the "Gentleman start your engine" instruction. Unfortunately at that point I am getting the "Active diagnostics could not be started" message and so far I have been unable to get beyond that point.

This is how my Calis have been set up.

Rich A

Offline Tom H

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2022, 11:54:57 AM »
IIRR you have a Power Commander. Maybe that is why you can't get the trim adjustment to work???

Just a thought,
Tom
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Offline Gwilliam

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2022, 01:39:49 PM »
This is how my Calis have been set up.

Rich A

Hi Rich
Well as far as I can tell that is the way that the instructions suggest that it should be done. It is just unfortunate that the final step is not yet playing ball. I'm still not completely sure what the Active Diagnostics message refers to as it is performing all of the other functions without any problems.

Offline Gwilliam

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2022, 01:54:32 PM »
IIRR you have a Power Commander. Maybe that is why you can't get the trim adjustment to work???

Just a thought,
Tom

Hi Tom

You are correct that I do have a Power Commander on the bike.
However I removed it before starting the Guzzidiag process although I have read a post that suggested that it could be run through the PC.
I know a lot of people will say that I should bin the PC and install a suitable map to the ECM. However as the bike ran very well with the PC setup I would just like to get the CO Trim back to the original setting if it has moved and see if the performance is restored.
I had hoped that just tweaking that one setting would not be too much of a problem but of course I should have realised that it is a Moto Guzzi!

Offline Tom H

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2022, 03:06:32 PM »
Well it was a thought.

What bike did you chose in settings. Stone? You might just for kicks try changing to EV greater than 2001 or was it 2002. can't remember.

Start Guzzidiag and follow instructions. Then go to the trim. If the bike is too cold you will get a message about that. If you get that far then warm it up and see what happens.

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2022, 04:13:33 PM »
You don't have the O2 sensor in the exhaust do you? That would be a 15RC, not a 15M.
Pretty sure you would not, just thinking out loud.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline Gwilliam

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2022, 04:47:36 PM »
Well it was a thought.

What bike did you chose in settings. Stone? You might just for kicks try changing to EV greater than 2001 or was it 2002. can't remember.

Start Guzzidiag and follow instructions. Then go to the trim. If the bike is too cold you will get a message about that. If you get that far then warm it up and see what happens.

Tom

I chose the Stone but as it is a 2001 it has more in common with the Jackal, solid lifters etc. However they both use the 15M ECM so it probably doesn't matter.
After many attempts I think that I have seen most of the Engine Temperature Too Cold messages but have got beyond that to the adjustment screen before the Active Diagnostics Can Not Be Started has me beaten.

Offline Gwilliam

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2022, 04:51:35 PM »
You don't have the O2 sensor in the exhaust do you? That would be a 15RC, not a 15M.
Pretty sure you would not, just thinking out loud.

No, nothing fancy like lamdas, sacred screws etc.
It's all fairly simple but just doesn't want to play nice!

Offline Gwilliam

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2022, 04:05:47 AM »
Finally all sorted with the CO Trim now set to +30 as used by Vagrant and a few others.
Many thanks to Rodekyll for his suggestions, support and advice.
Guzzidiag, a very useful tool - eventually!

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2022, 08:32:21 AM »
Glad you got it sorted. I set the trim w/a Colortune to get it spot-on the correct mixture while running. Some use a sniffer up the exhaust. Usually it's in the 20's or 30's depending on the bike set-up, every bike is different.
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Offline Gwilliam

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2022, 04:00:22 AM »
Glad you got it sorted. I set the trim w/a Colortune to get it spot-on the correct mixture while running. Some use a sniffer up the exhaust. Usually it's in the 20's or 30's depending on the bike set-up, every bike is different.

Realistically, I guess it would have to go onto a Dyno with a sniffer analysing the exhaust, under load, to allow testing under everything up to wide open throttle. That has to be the basis for writing a fuel map: engine speed against throttle position, with the correct mixture at all points.

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2022, 09:11:17 AM »
The trim is just for idle, no load. Only thing effects it is air bleed screws. The colortune is a glass bottom spark plug so you can see the color of the flame in combustion chamber. I use it to set Idle only.
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Offline Gwilliam

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2022, 11:38:32 AM »
The trim is just for idle, no load. Only thing effects it is air bleed screws. The colortune is a glass bottom spark plug so you can see the color of the flame in combustion chamber. I use it to set Idle only.

Well I got that wrong then!
I had heard of the colortune plugs from years ago and understood their function but various people have told me different stories about the CO Trim function. I thought that it affected the idle but tapered off its enrichment up to around 2000 rpm which was the range causing problems on my Stone.
I have read that the Power Commander maps are produced by a computer connected to an exhaust gas analyser with the bike on a Dyno. The bike is then run right through the rev range under loads from the Dyno and a map is produced to provide the correct mixture for that specific bike, with its modifications, under all conditions. When the PC is plugged in line with the ECM, the original values are corrected to suit the bike.
If an owner can't or won't pay for the production of a specific map, they can load one made for a similar bike with similar modifications. This usually works pretty well as I found for many years until I assume that the 15M ECU had a hiccup and zeroed the CO Trim causing a lean mixture at idle and light throttle.
After a lot of research and heartache I finally heard of this problem and how to fix it using Guzzidiag. Once I had reset the trim to +30, the original PC map worked correctly again.

Offline HarveyMushman

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2023, 01:33:56 PM »
Finally all sorted with the CO Trim now set to +30 as used by Vagrant and a few others.
Many thanks to Rodekyll for his suggestions, support and advice.
Guzzidiag, a very useful tool - eventually!

What did you do to get it to work? Im having the same problem with my 07 CalVin.
Tim

Offline antmanbee

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2023, 01:59:55 PM »
What did you do to get it to work? Im having the same problem with my 07 CalVin.
The CalVin is running closed loop and is responding to an O2 sensor. No CO trim available to set.

Offline HarveyMushman

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2023, 03:25:49 PM »
The CalVin is running closed loop and is responding to an O2 sensor. No CO trim available to set.

Mine has an open-loop Beetle map.
Tim

Offline Gwilliam

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2023, 04:23:33 PM »
What did you do to get it to work? Im having the same problem with my 07 CalVin.
I persisted with Beetle's instructions from his post trying different combinations of ignition on/off, kill switch on/off etc and leaving it for 15-30 seconds between commands until I got it to play ball.
The last time I used it was several months ago and it has been abandoned over the winter so I can't be more precise.
Earlier this week I uncovered it and took it for its annual Ministry of Transport test. It ran beautifully and I am looking forward to a summer of the smooth riding that I remember from years past.
UPDATE:
The following was a PM sent to me by Rodekyll when I was struggling with the last stages of getting the CO Trim adjustment to work.

Hi again.  I don't have my notes handy so I'll give some general advice. The co-setting is tricky. One of the tricks I use is to wait about 15 seconds after telling guzzidiag to do anything. In other words, when it tells you to turn ignition on, do so, wait 15, move to next step. It seems to sometimes need that time to settle itself down. This seems to be especially important after you have set Co and are trying to make the setting "stick" in the ecu.

The other part of the equation is getting the key on / kill switch on / enginestart sequence right. I try to do my other checks first. Then I exit Guzzidiag, come back in, and do only the co check.  So play with the timing of your commands, and play with starting Co check at different points of ignition on /kill button on/ engine start.  You will find the combination that works. Good luck.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2023, 05:09:07 PM by Gwilliam »

Online Joliet Jim

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2023, 07:40:09 AM »
Glad I read this thread. I assumed it only ran on newer machines not 01s. I wouldn't mind getting rid of the
PC3 if I could adjust better without it for the mistrals and open airbox.
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Offline Gwilliam

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Re: California Stone Guzzidiag problem
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2023, 02:11:09 PM »
I am running a PC3 with my Stone. It is running a map for open airbox, K&N air filter, H pipe and Lafranconi Riservato Competizioni mufflers.

I considered removing the PC3 and installing a custom map directly to the ECU. However, having to obtain and install one when I already have a system that has worked well for several years put me off. I am confident with tweaking the PC3 with the buttons or a laptop and was able to use it to richen the low speed running and prove that my problem was a lean mix, before resetting the CO Trim.

It was good to finally get some experience with Guzzidiag though as I had been put off previously by other websites suggesting that I was likely to destroy my ECU if I hooked up to it. Once I had established that it was known to suffer the CO Trim failure, I felt more confident in getting involved with it.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2023, 04:57:02 PM by Gwilliam »

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