Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: twowheeladdict on February 21, 2020, 07:38:11 PM
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That bike is insane!
I stopped in my local dealer on the way home from the Gulf and they told me to take the demo bike for a ride. The owner walked by and said "go have fun!" He knew I wasn't a buyer because of my back, but he knew I wanted to experience it.
Man oh man! What a ride!
The closest I can equate this bike to would be a 1000cc supersport in second gear once the RPMs are above 5000. Twist the throttle and GO! Close the throttle and slow down. Repeat.
It felt like I hit 90 in the blink of an eye. The more you twist the more it wants to pull your arms out!
It is definitely sprung for the twisties. Just lean it over and go.
I also played with it on the MSF course behind the dealership. Very controllable and nimble.
The dealer had the garage door to the showroom open and I crept into the showroom with feet on the pegs at maybe 1/2 mph. Very balanced. Two ladies saw me and smiled while the guy facing them had no clue I was behind him. :) I considered hitting the horn, but thought better of it.
If I were 30 years younger with my current income I would have one of these bikes.
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The power, especially the instant torque of an electric is addicting. For 10 large less than the Harley you can get a Zero, though..that's where my money would go.
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The power, especially the instant torque of an electric is addicting. For 10 large less than the Harley you can get a Zero, though..that's where my money would go.
I'd like to try a zero, but closest dealer is a couple hours away and doesnt have a demo bike. The fit and finish of the Harley is really top notch.
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Zero
(https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/ZERO-CONTENDER-1.jpg?w=730&crop=1)
I still don't know why they don't have a transmission. Even a two speed. You'd think that would extend the range on these things like overdrive for gas mileage.
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well, a day late and a dollar.....
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=104491.msg1650964#new
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I'd like to try a zero, but closest dealer is a couple hours away and doesnt have a demo bike. The fit and finish of the Harley is really top notch.
When I was out in SoCal helmet shopping over the holidays, the girl at Cycle Gear said she thought the Harley dealer carried Nolan helmets, so I stopped by. They were having a dog and pony show with a band, food, etc. A Livewire was sitting in the middle of all that.. and was being totally shunned. I took the paper bag off my head :evil: :grin: and looked it over, but I was the *only* one that even gave it a glance while I was there. Yes, fit and finish is top notch, as you would expect. For 30+ large, though.. (Not Guzzi content) it should be.
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When I was out in SoCal helmet shopping over the holidays, the girl at Cycle Gear said she thought the Harley dealer carried Nolan helmets, so I stopped by. They were having a dog and pony show with a band, food, etc. A Livewire was sitting in the middle of all that.. and was being totally shunned. I took the paper bag off my head :evil: :grin: and looked it over, but I was the *only* one that even gave it a glance while I was there. Yes, fit and finish is top notch, as you would expect. For 30+ large, though.. (Not Guzzi content) it should be.
Regarding the price, I always wondered how manufacturers came out with those numbers. Of course what they do know is the Non-recurring costs for development and manufacturing set up, the material costs, the labor, costs. So they know how much for how many units they need to recoup their costs.
Then there is market value. How many early adopters are there who will pay the premium to be the first kid on the block. I know many guys that easily have $100,000 in motorcycles sitting in their garages. The problem is that many of them like me aren't as nimble as we once were so actually riding a bike with sport ergonomics is out of the question.
I wonder if Harley should have done a V-Rod electric bike. Mmm.
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I'd be interested to try electric, don't think I could ever afford one though. Not electric but I did just see an ad for the HD Bronx. I had not heard of this model before but I think they did a good job style wise. Anybody ridden one?
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NOPE
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Well I’ve learned over the past 67 years to never say never, so I’ll just say “I don’t think so”
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Regarding the price, I always wondered how manufacturers came out with those numbers. Of course what they do know is the Non-recurring costs for development and manufacturing set up, the material costs, the labor, costs. So they know how much for how many units they need to recoup their costs.
Then there is market value. How many early adopters are there who will pay the premium to be the first kid on the block. I know many guys that easily have $100,000 in motorcycles sitting in their garages. The problem is that many of them like me aren't as nimble as we once were so actually riding a bike with sport ergonomics is out of the question.
I wonder if Harley should have done a V-Rod electric bike. Mmm.
Ya, I wondered that.. It will always be a loss leader. Anytime new tech comes out, they always loose a ton on everyone they sell. My guess is they priced it so they would not sell a ton of them.. High enough so the big wigs will spend it because its exclusive.. and a few normal riders might pony up the bucks, and do some real riding. If it was cheaper, they would sell more, and pretty much loose a ton if there are any real issues on real world use. Im sure its just a start of more trickle down models as time comes..
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I'd be interested to try electric, don't think I could ever afford one though. Not electric but I did just see an ad for the HD Bronx. I had not heard of this model before but I think they did a good job style wise. Anybody ridden one?
It's not out yet. Later this year they are saying. I will ride it, as well as the Pan America when they come out. For me motorcycles are about experiences and I want to experience them all.
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Ya, I wondered that.. It will always be a loss leader. Anytime new tech comes out, they always loose a ton on everyone they sell. My guess is they priced it so they would not sell a ton of them.. High enough so the big wigs will spend it because its exclusive.. and a few normal riders might pony up the bucks, and do some real riding. If it was cheaper, they would sell more, and pretty much loose a ton if there are any real issues on real world use. Im sure its just a start of more trickle down models as time comes..
Definitely. Personally I would be happy with 1/2 the power and double the range in a lightweight dual sport version. Something that could be refreshed by a bang of batteries in my toy hauler that are kept recharged by solar panels. Charge the bank of batteries during the day while I am riding and charge the bike overnight off the batteries while I am sleeping.
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Definitely. Personally I would be happy with 1/2 the power and double the range in a lightweight dual sport version. Something that could be refreshed by a bang of batteries in my toy hauler that are kept recharged by solar panels. Charge the bank of batteries during the day while I am riding and charge the bike overnight off the batteries while I am sleeping.
I think something along the lines as the old honda CL350 size/capability. Something on the smaller size, but not too small for real people. Good on streets, and back roads, but like a good dirt or two track road once in a while. As you said... take some power, and give some range, and it would be a fun beat around town bike. I wouldnt want it as a only bike... But so many times Im just going across town to go to the store. Maybe a bang out the back roads when I have a hour to blow, and dont need, or really want to drag out the big bike. Toss a rack on the back, and some panners of some sort to carry your stuff home..
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I think something along the lines as the old honda CL350 size/capability. Something on the smaller size, but not too small for real people. Good on streets, and back roads, but like a good dirt or two track road once in a while. As you said... take some power, and give some range, and it would be a fun beat around town bike. I wouldnt want it as a only bike... But so many times Im just going across town to go to the store. Maybe a bang out the back roads when I have a hour to blow, and dont need, or really want to drag out the big bike. Toss a rack on the back, and some panners of some sort to carry your stuff home..
I always put my bikes away with a full tank of gas. Here in the humid southeast it is a necessity. With an electric bike that would be one less thing to do. I wear hearing protection from the wind so no motor noise is not a big deal for me.
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Like so many best new ideas, as soon as it hits the market it's obsolete battery technology.
If they can update it by adding some corn to the mix, maybe this time the corn won't destroy all it touches in the system...- https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/corny-lithium-ion-batteries-could-222300734.html (https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/corny-lithium-ion-batteries-could-222300734.html)
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Zero
(https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/ZERO-CONTENDER-1.jpg?w=730&crop=1)
I still don't know why they don't have a transmission. Even a two speed. You'd think that would extend the range on these things like overdrive for gas mileage.
Because if you halve the rpm, you have to double the torque.
Work is by definition torque x rpm. So the two have to multiply out to be the same.
Your gas (petrol) engine has a point where the power versus fuel flow, is at it’s optimum and that is where’s you’re aiming by using the gearbox, also there’s a practical limit to the rpm.
Within reason, this doesn’t apply to an an electric motor.
The motor is fundamentally a rotating magnet, so the torque is not dependent on rpm.
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A question that I have pondered is with an IC engine one can use engine braking and lower gear to slow the bike. How does electric bike feel when letting off power? Will it slow down speed or just continue on until gravity slows it?
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The Harley offering is simply stunning in a way the Zero is not. But that's subjective. What's not is the price. They are thinking a few years ahead. A 15,000 and 20,000 offering does not look expensive next to a 30,000 offering. Say and think what you may, but this is a basic business school lesson. Wharton teaches this stuff all day to the grad students.
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A question that I have pondered is with an IC engine one can use engine braking and lower gear to slow the bike. How does electric bike feel when letting off power? Will it slow down speed or just continue on until gravity slows it?
Gravity as such is not what slows the bike, gravity acts vertically, so on on level ground there is no vector assisting or retarding forward movement, it does however contribute to frictional losses due to weight.
There are other contributing factors, wind resistance etc...Without these factors, the mass would continue at the same speed and direction.
Also I don’t know in this case, but the motor can be configured to act as a generator when on overrun and put charge back into the battery, in which case you’d be doing work charging the battery, so there’d be a retardation to forward motion...(braking).
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Well said. Several of the electric offerings allow the user to dial in the amount of "re-gen" they desire, which can mimic to some degree compression braking.
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That bike is insane!
I stopped in my local dealer on the way home from the Gulf and they told me to take the demo bike for a ride. The owner walked by and said "go have fun!" He knew I wasn't a buyer because of my back, but he knew I wanted to experience it.
Man oh man! What a ride!
The closest I can equate this bike to would be a 1000cc supersport in second gear once the RPMs are above 5000. Twist the throttle and GO! Close the throttle and slow down. Repeat.
It felt like I hit 90 in the blink of an eye. The more you twist the more it wants to pull your arms out!
It is definitely sprung for the twisties. Just lean it over and go.
I also played with it on the MSF course behind the dealership. Very controllable and nimble.
The dealer had the garage door to the showroom open and I crept into the showroom with feet on the pegs at maybe 1/2 mph. Very balanced. Two ladies saw me and smiled while the guy facing them had no clue I was behind him. :) I considered hitting the horn, but thought better of it.
If I were 30 years younger with my current income I would have one of these bikes.
The bad news is, after your 20 minute demo, they had to plug the bike into a charger for 6 hours!
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The bad news is, after your 20 minute demo, they had to plug the bike into a charger for 6 hours!
That’s shocking economy..
It has sparked my interest though... :popcorn:
When I get ohm, I might charge down to my dealer and check out the current range..
I’m starting to feel really amped by the whole concept, I can’t imagine I’ll switch to electron power, but who knows ?
A change could be in the future..
I’m alternating between a gentle transition or going direct to spark power..
I can see it now..
A bloke is stopped by the side of the road with a dead Live Wire..
“What’s up mate..”?
“Bikes cut out...”
“Any ideas what’s wrong with it..?”
“Yeah, it’s got no spark, ‘does it every time after 40 minutes...” :rolleyes: :bike-037:
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That’s shocking economy..
It has sparked my interest though... :popcorn:
When I get ohm, I might charge down to my dealer and check out the current range..
I’m starting to feel really amped by the whole concept, I can’t imagine I’ll switch to electron power, but who knows ?
A change could be in the future..
I’m alternating between a gentle transition or going direct to spark power..
Resistance is futile!
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Resistance is futile!
Read a little more closely..
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Hey..!
It’s a bit of a turn around, I once had a bike that stopped if you got water in the ignition, this one will start all by itself if it gets wet..!
Leave it parked in the rain and when you come out it’s gone..!
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Resistance is futile!
Sorry, I just got it..!
Good one.. :thumb: :popcorn:
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Because if you halve the rpm, you have to double the torque.
Work is by definition torque x rpm. So the two have to multiply out to be the same.
Your gas (petrol) engine has a point where the power versus fuel flow, is at it’s optimum and that is where’s you’re aiming by using the gearbox, also there’s a practical limit to the rpm.
Within reason, this doesn’t apply to an an electric motor.
The motor is fundamentally a rotating magnet, so the torque is not dependent on rpm.
After I wrote that it occurred to me torque is instantaneous so the pull on the motor would likely cause the power drain than RPMs. I also considered that there might be friction losses. But there must be some limitations because there is gearing involved even for one speed. I did see the Porsche is going to a 2 speed on it's 700HP electric car for more top end speed. I was amazed and confused that this Porsdhe transmission is considered a technical innovation.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/04/cars/porsche-taycan-electric-car/index.html
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Used electrics are now coming on the market with prices down to around $7000 for the older ones (electric trials bikes cheaper). Low miles on all of them -- I guess people don't ride them much due to range anxiety.
I built my own lead-acid 48v electric bike in 2008 using a TA-125 roller. Only a 12-mile range (got me to work and back) and great fun with the massive low-speed torque. I could switch on regen which did help with braking (about the engine braking effect you'd get with a small 4-stroke) and that extended the range a bit on the flat, a lot on hills. I probably put 2000 miles on it over two summer-commute seasons. Then the cheap batteries were toast and I parked it until I could afford Li-ion, which hasn't yet happened.
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A question that I have pondered is with an IC engine one can use engine braking and lower gear to slow the bike. How does electric bike feel when letting off power? Will it slow down speed or just continue on until gravity slows it?
Regenerative braking is like engine braking. If you set it to max regenerative braking it will slow you down without brakes and recharge the battery
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The bad news is, after your 20 minute demo, they had to plug the bike into a charger for 6 hours!
Nope. But nice try.
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Sorry, I just got it..!
Good one.. :thumb: :popcorn:
(Ahem) A little slow, there, Huzo.. :smiley:
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(Ahem) A little slow, there, Huzo.. :smiley:
Touche’
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Regenerative braking is like engine braking. If you set it to max regenerative braking it will slow you down without brakes and recharge the battery
And probably destroy the rear tire in 1000 miles. Great way to save money!
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Sorry, I just got it..!
Good one.. :thumb: :popcorn:
That's OK, electrics bikes don't strike a spark in me. They still don't have enough capacitor. Maybe in a few mores years, they have it wired. Until then, I 'll just have to watt.
(Sorry :rolleyes:)
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Nope. But nice try.
From the HD web site: On those fast chargers, the Livewire will charge to 80 percent in 40 minutes or require an hour to take on a full charge. Most of the time, riders will probably charge up in their garage, with a cord-set that fits under the seat. It takes between 10 and 11 hours for a full charge on Level 1.
I was close enough. 40 minutes to an hour at a Harley dealer is too long for me. 10 hours at home is even worse. That's a lot of cigerette breaks, and I don't even smoke. But if I had the wherewithal to buy one of these things, I'd have to start!
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From the HD web site: On those fast chargers, the Livewire will charge to 80 percent in 40 minutes or require an hour to take on a full charge. Most of the time, riders will probably charge up in their garage, with a cord-set that fits under the seat. It takes between 10 and 11 hours for a full charge on Level 1.
I was close enough. 40 minutes to an hour at a Harley dealer is too long for me. 10 hours at home is even worse. That's a lot of cigerette breaks, and I don't even smoke. But if I had the wherewithal to buy one of these things, I'd have to start!
You can justify the stops just like Tesla owners do. "You know, on any long trip you need to stop for a (2 hour) lunch anyway, so an electric car fueling is no different from a gasoline one." LOL! You can't make this stuff up.
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I've only a taken brief test drive in an EV (Chevy Bolt). Never on a bike.
I've read from many, that once a person owns an EV that they don't want to go back to an ICE powered vehicle. I have to admit, despite the Bolt being a entry vehicle, I was impressed with it, not as much as the new Camaro but I could see myself owning one. (That new Camaro is just a fantastic drivers' car, however.)
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I've ridden a couple Zeros and could see having one for commuter duties. My needs would require only 100 mile range at 80mph, and decent weather protection as I ride in four season temperature ranges and rain not a problem as long as well above freezing. Friday morning my 20 mile commute was mid teens F and dry. This new SR/S looks like getting closer to meeting my needs as a commuter.
As with most motorcyclist, I have several bikes that all have different niches. I will need a long distance sport touring bike for the foreseeable future, and want a variety of less practical fun bikes.
If I commuted in a car, an EV would be at the top of my list, to go along with a gas engine truck to travel to other states and take bikes in the back.
I would be all over a pick up with a "Mr. Fusion" power source. :thumb:
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I had the range explained to me at the dealer. I made an example of riding from Los Angeles to San Diego to see Sea World.
I could ride down without stopping if the bike was fully charged. If I stayed for the day like you normally would and put it on a charger, it would be non stop back. But....If I decided to come right back, I would need the 40 minute charge and then have to stop again for another 40 minute charge. He even mentioned a dealer that would be on the way back that I could charge up at. Let's say you needed a charge at 2am on a trip, I can't remember for sure, but I think it was possible to stop at the dealer to get a charge. Would have to check on that t be sure.
Tom
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The test a I read said something about a 95 mile range. I think the Zero has more range and more power.
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From the HD web site: On those fast chargers, the Livewire will charge to 80 percent in 40 minutes or require an hour to take on a full charge. Most of the time, riders will probably charge up in their garage, with a cord-set that fits under the seat. It takes between 10 and 11 hours for a full charge on Level 1.
I was close enough. 40 minutes to an hour at a Harley dealer is too long for me. 10 hours at home is even worse. That's a lot of cigerette breaks, and I don't even smoke. But if I had the wherewithal to buy one of these things, I'd have to start!
You are too funny!
You are not limited to Harley dealerships. This is just one of many websites that shows where EV charging stations are located. Many at Restaurants and Hotels. https://pluginamerica.org/get-equipped/find-an-ev-charging-station/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=ev%20charging%20station%20locator&utm_campaign=US%20Charger%20Locations&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4LOUvtjo5wIVjZ6zCh31pw_EEAAYBCAAEgKt_vD_BwE
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And probably destroy the rear tire in 1000 miles. Great way to save money!
Maybe, but me thinks the rear tire is going to wear out from accelerations way more than decelerations. :evil:
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You are too funny!
You are not limited to Harley dealerships. This is just one of many websites that shows where EV charging stations are located. Many at Restaurants and Hotels. https://pluginamerica.org/get-equipped/find-an-ev-charging-station/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=ev%20charging%20station%20locator&utm_campaign=US%20Charger%20Locations&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4LOUvtjo5wIVjZ6zCh31pw_EEAAYBCAAEgKt_vD_BwE
Koolaid much?
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Oh, by the way. I just spoke with a friend of mine with deep pockets that is interested in a Live Wire. He went to his local Harley Dealer that has them. NO more demo rides, was what he got told from the dealer. The story he got was people have been wrecking and dumping the Live Wires left and right on demo rides because of the acceleration the bike is capable of. He decided riding it anywhere other than back and forth to work (in other words a known, fixed distance) would result in constant "range anxiety." His words.
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Koolaid much?
Unlike you, I love all bikes. So yes I drink the guzzi koolaid, Royal Enfield koolaid, Euro koolaid, Asian koolaid, and American Koolaid. I guess I just see the positive in riding instead of bashing.
If I were only looking for 'bang for the buck', bulletproof, reliable, and a manufacturer who stands behind their product, I would only own Kawasaki.
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Our own Moshe Levy had a multi page story in MCN a few years ago about commuting approx 100 miles each way for an entire summer. He seemed to make it work.
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You are too funny!
You are not limited to Harley dealerships. This is just one of many websites that shows where EV charging stations are located. Many at Restaurants and Hotels. https://pluginamerica.org/get-equipped/find-an-ev-charging-station/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=ev%20charging%20station%20locator&utm_campaign=US%20Charger%20Locations&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4LOUvtjo5wIVjZ6zCh31pw_EEAAYBCAAEgKt_vD_BwE
I did not say that you were limited to the HD dealer. I only presented the range info from the dealer and his suggestion on getting it charged. I don't know the HD requirements, are they the same as a car?? Can I stop at the local Mall and plug into the car charger? Would I need an adapter? I don't have these answers.
Tom
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Motorcyclist does a vid on a test ride. Informative. https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/story/reviews/2020-harley-davidson-livewire-review-mc-commute/?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=email
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I did not say that you were limited to the HD dealer. I only presented the range info from the dealer and his suggestion on getting it charged. I don't know the HD requirements, are they the same as a car?? Can I stop at the local Mall and plug into the car charger? Would I need an adapter? I don't have these answers.
Tom
You don't need an adapter. The chargers at the Harley dealer are the same as all the other standard fast chargers.
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TWA, thank you for the answer. So if you needed to, you could stop anywhere that has a charging station.
One thing I did want to mention. The HD chargers are free, so far, for the HD's.
Since we're on the charging subject. For power tools, if I understand correctly, you want to run the battery all the way down before charging. If you charge when your only half way down, it would end up with less run time. Has that changed?
What I'm getting at is that if you had your battery vehicle fully charged and went out on your errands for the day. Your last stop has a charging station. Your only at 50% charge and you plug in for lets say an hour and get it up to, again lets say 75%. Is that bad for the battery??
Tom
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As I understand it that is not a concern. Built in conditioners in the charging circuit. Anything less-like full discharge before full charge would be suicide.
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TWA, thank you for the answer. So if you needed to, you could stop anywhere that has a charging station.
One thing I did want to mention. The HD chargers are free, so far, for the HD's.
Since we're on the charging subject. For power tools, if I understand correctly, you want to run the battery all the way down before charging. If you charge when your only half way down, it would end up with less run time. Has that changed?
What I'm getting at is that if you had your battery vehicle fully charged and went out on your errands for the day. Your last stop has a charging station. Your only at 50% charge and you plug in for lets say an hour and get it up to, again lets say 75%. Is that bad for the battery??
Tom
At least the Zero plug is the same as the plug on my Prius plug-in and my Chevy Volt. Normally the DC fast charges have an extra couple of prongs but that doesn't stop you from using the standard chargers.
Things have come a long way from power tool batteries. The Chevy battery charges up to about 80% and then discharges to about 20%. We are advised to keep the car plugged in when not using it, I'm sure there is some sort of conditioning going on.
We've been running our plug-in Prius since 2013, Volt is only a few months old but the 60 miles of battery before the engine kicks on is a game changer for me.
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Volt is only a few months old but the 60 miles of battery before the engine kicks on is a game changer for me.
That could work for us, too. I looked *very* hard at the Volt in '12, but decided on the Prius. Our normal run to Indy for groceries, etc. is about 60 miles round trip.
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Rode the Live Wire at Daytona. I found it to be fast, quiet, and fun, in an EZ-Go kind of way. It is a well finished, fully developed motorcycle hampered by a (too) short range and an extremely high price. Not for me, but I can see the appeal if you have LOTS of disposable income. I also see the appeal of it's simple operation (no clutch or gears to shift) to new riders. Not that new riders are in a position to drop 30K on a motorcycle. My riding buddy went totally ga-ga over it and said if they drop the price to $25,000 he'd buy one. If the day ever comes when I'm too old and feeble to pull in a clutch lever, I might consider electric, but hopefully that day is a long ways off.
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Rode the Live Wire at Daytona. I found it to be fast, quiet, and fun, in an EZ-Go kind of way. It is a well finished, fully developed motorcycle hampered by a (too) short range and an extremely high price. Not for me, but I can see the appeal if you have LOTS of disposable income. I also see the appeal of it's simple operation (no clutch or gears to shift) to new riders. Not that new riders are in a position to drop 30K on a motorcycle. My riding buddy went totally ga-ga over it and said if they drop the price to $25,000 he'd buy one. If the day ever comes when I'm too old and feeble to pull in a clutch lever, I might consider electric, but hopefully that day is a long ways off.
:thumb:
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Rode the Live Wire at Daytona. I found it to be fast, quiet, and fun, in an EZ-Go kind of way. It is a well finished, fully developed motorcycle hampered by a (too) short range and an extremely high price. Not for me, but I can see the appeal if you have LOTS of disposable income. I also see the appeal of it's simple operation (no clutch or gears to shift) to new riders. Not that new riders are in a position to drop 30K on a motorcycle. My riding buddy went totally ga-ga over it and said if they drop the price to $25,000 he'd buy one. If the day ever comes when I'm too old and feeble to pull in a clutch lever, I might consider electric, but hopefully that day is a long ways off.
Did they have them plugged into a charger when not in use?
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No, they had a large generator in the Harley 18 wheeler they use for these events, plus several more Live Wire bikes. They would check the charge on the bikes after a couple of runs, and rotate the bikes out that needed to be charged. My bike was almost fully charged (about 95%, I think) and I used about 10-12% capacity on the riding loop. That was flogging it as best I could, with several full-throttle "sling-shots" as long as I could hold it...80 to 90 mph, being in a group ride. Frankly, I was surprised the range held up as well as it did. The range indication is too small though, just a narrow bar graph along the bottom of the display. Hard to read. Not that I'll own one, but I'd have to figure a way to disable the wheelie control...With no shifting and no real redline to worry about, I bet that thing would be a wheelie king. The reps present did infer it was a "halo" bike and there were other models planed for the "motor." Of course, being the cynical old-timer that I am, I merely replied, "That's what they always said about the V-rod engine!" Time will tell.
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A question that I have pondered is with an IC engine one can use engine braking and lower gear to slow the bike. How does electric bike feel when letting off power? Will it slow down speed or just continue on until gravity slows it?
All electric vehicles suffer (or benefit) from what's called 'flyback voltage'. The motor acts as a generator when the throttle is closed, and that voltage must go somewhere. On the Livewire, and I'll assume any electric motorcycle, they use regenerative braking to absorb flyback voltage, recharge the battery, and give the feeling of 'engine braking' although it's a bit weird because it's rather a steady reversing that's not much related to engine RPM.
So specifically, backing off the throttle feels pretty much the same at speed, but annoyingly severe at very low speeds. (that's subjective, it's not really bad just different).
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All electric vehicles suffer (or benefit) from what's called 'flyback voltage'. The motor acts as a generator when the throttle is closed, and that voltage must go somewhere. On the Livewire, and I'll assume any electric motorcycle, they use regenerative braking to absorb flyback voltage, recharge the battery, and give the feeling of 'engine braking' although it's a bit weird because it's rather a steady reversing that's not much related to engine RPM.
So specifically, backing off the throttle feels pretty much the same at speed, but annoyingly severe at very low speeds. (that's subjective, it's not really bad just different).
I can honestly say, during my short demo ride, I wasn't even aware of the regenerative braking. I think the amount and setting is adjustable, so who knows what they had it set for. It didn't try to toss me over the bars when I closed the throttle, nor did it free-wheel like a two-stroke.
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I can honestly say, during my short demo ride, I wasn't even aware of the regenerative braking. I think the amount and setting is adjustable, so who knows what they had it set for. It didn't try to toss me over the bars when I closed the throttle, nor did it free-wheel like a two-stroke.
I played with all the settings during my ride. If it hadn't been cold out i would have tested the range for sure. I never noticed any obtrusive regenerative braking.
I'm sure a lot has to do with what types of bikes you are used to before riding the Livewire. I enjoy thumpers and twins so I am used to engine braking. I-4s have much less engine braking IMO.
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You can justify the stops just like Tesla owners do. "You know, on any long trip you need to stop for a (2 hour) lunch anyway, so an electric car fueling is no different from a gasoline one." LOL! You can't make this stuff up.
That may have been the case with the early Teslas, but the newer ones will take a full charge in under an hour.
Many people have major misconceptions about electric vehicles and charging. Having owned a Chevy Bolt for 2 years and 30,000 miles (which does not charge anywhere near as fast as a Tesla), I estimate I have saved about 12 hours of time compared to fueling and maintaining my prior gas car (a Mazda 3 6-spd manual). Here is how that works out in my case.
The Bolt has 200-250 miles range (less than a Tesla). My wife and take a lot of trips around Colorado to ski, hike and sightsee. We can get to Ft. Collins, Colorado Springs, Vail, Breckenridge etc. and return the same day without needing to recharge. If we go further away than that (like Steamboat Springs or the Aspen area), we spend the night and recharge while we sleep. Doing this has never posed a problem, and these trips are of a length that we would choose to spend the night regardless of the car we are driving. Anyway, in 2 years and 30,000 miles, we have stopped 2 times of approximately 1 hour each to recharge. We did go to the restroom, get a coffee, check our email, etc. during those stops, but if we had been in a gas car we would have probably done more of a 'grab and go', so I am counting this a grand total of 2 hours WAITING for the Bolt to charge since I have owned it. The car has required zero maintenance of any kind, and all other charging is done "while we sleep".
Compare this to the Mazda 3. In 30,000 miles I would have waited as follows:
Fueling. Approx. 100 gas stops (1 every 300 miles) x 5 minutes = about 500 minutes or 8 hours
Oil changes. 6 changes of about 1 hour duration each = 6 hours.
So, 14 hours of waiting for fueling and maintenance of a gas car vs. 2 hours for the electric car.
While everybody's circumstances are different, it would take quite a bit of long distance driving for this to become even equal, much less a disadvantage for going electric. And the Bolt is much faster, more powerful and capable on the mountain passes, and both my wife and I find it a total joy to drive, even compared to one of the best economy drivers cars out there.
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I took a test drive in a Bolt. Very impressive car. Played with regenerative braking. Being a stick shift guy, it's like learning to drive all over again. Well thought out car and surprisingly fun to drive. The funky formica style dash is kinda neat too.
I wonder how the Chevy sales people handle it?
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I took a test drive in a Bolt. Very impressive car. Played with regenerative braking. Being a stick shift guy, it's like learning to drive all over again. Well thought out car and surprisingly fun to drive. The funky formica style dash is kinda neat too.
I wonder how the Chevy sales people handle it?
It seems some Chevy dealers make a real effort to support the Bolt, but I believe most do not. You can be pretty sure the service departments aren't thrilled about them!
It is an impressive little car, and it only took a couple of weeks before both my wife and I became complete electric car advocates. Advances in tech will continue to come, but I think for most people, even these "early adopter" examples represent a vastly superior way to build a car. And Teslas are a whole other level of amazing.
The regen braking does take a bit of getting used to, but once you do it is great. It is my wife's single favorite feature about the car and one of the things I think Chevy has done a better job of than anybody to date. I suspect the brake pads should be good for several million miles. :grin:
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You can justify the stops just like Tesla owners do. "You know, on any long trip you need to stop for a (2 hour) lunch anyway, so an electric car fueling is no different from a gasoline one." LOL! You can't make this stuff up.
Looks like you can, and did. :grin:
Actually, my wife prefers sit down restaurants when we travel, and a walk around as well so electric would work for us if we wanted one, which we don’t. Now when they can coat the outside of the car in solar cells that look like the car is carbon fiber, so it charges in the parking lot at work I might be interested.
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I took a test drive in a Bolt. Very impressive car. Played with regenerative braking. Being a stick shift guy, it's like learning to drive all over again. Well thought out car and surprisingly fun to drive. The funky formica style dash is kinda neat too.
I wonder how the Chevy sales people handle it?
I worked for VW when they came out with the eGolf. It was really a great car, but the staff had no idea what to do with it!! Only one tech was trained to work on it in the shop, and most sales guys just forgot about it. I think it finely sold 3 years later. Funny story though, another salesman dealer traded one from another dealer in another state. They didnt want to add the cost of towing it, so he was driving it back. Well seems he forgot about the shorter range, and ended up having to stay somewhere halfway through the trip home. That all being said, you really need to have the whole dealership fired up about it. If the staff doesn't understand, or is not into it at all, it will just die on the vine. Better or worse is debatable... the fact that its different, and needs to be handled as such is cut and dry.
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It seems some Chevy dealers make a real effort to support the Bolt, but I believe most do not. You can be pretty sure the service departments aren't thrilled about them!
It is an impressive little car, and it only took a couple of weeks before both my wife and I became complete electric car advocates. Advances in tech will continue to come, but I think for most people, even these "early adopter" examples represent a vastly superior way to build a car. And Teslas are a whole other level of amazing.
The regen braking does take a bit of getting used to, but once you do it is great. It is my wife's single favorite feature about the car and one of the things I think Chevy has done a better job of than anybody to date. I suspect the brake pads should be good for several million miles. :grin:
Agree about the regen braking, I am an old stick shift guy that learned economy driving to coast and not use brakes. :wink:
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The way to go, at least for Bikes, has got to be Quick-Change Battery Packs.
You get low on charge, you pull into a dedicated 'service' station, and swap your near-dead Pack for a freshly charged one, simply pull out the old, plug in the new, like a giant Power Tool Pack.
Pay the fee, and you're on your way again in a minute or so.
Of course, this would require all the manufacturers to cooperate, and standardise the various sized Packs they use, but if they want to sell, that's what they'll have to do.
I know they're the 'future', or at least will be in a decade or so, when they're fully 'sorted', and are much more environmentally friendly than they are now, but for me, a huge part of the riding experience is the Engine sound, and the vibes.
I want to feel there's a living fire-breathing beast under me, not some sanitised over-sized Sewing MAchine.
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The way to go, at least for Bikes, has got to be Quick-Change Battery Packs.
You get low on charge, you pull into a dedicated 'service' station, and swap your near-dead Pack for a freshly charged one, simply pull out the old, plug in the new, like a giant Power Tool Pack.
Pay the fee, and you're on your way again in a minute or so.
Of course, this would require all the manufacturers to cooperate, and standardise the various sized Packs they use, but if they want to sell, that's what they'll have to do.
I know they're the 'future', or at least will be in a decade or so, when they're fully 'sorted', and are much more environmentally friendly than they are now, but for me, a huge part of the riding experience is the Engine sound, and the vibes.
I want to feel there's a living fire-breathing beast under me, not some sanitised over-sized Sewing MAchine.
I agree in theory that a battery swap approach would resolve a lot of issues. But it would require Significant coordination and organization by the manufacturers and I haven't seen ANY activity on that front.
I also agree with you on Engine sound, and too am not interested in an electric bike for that reason (and I also like shifting). I am completely sold on electric cars, but cars are tools* (that can be fun) and bikes are toys* that need to be fun and visceral to ride. That is one of the reasons I never liked BMW's, they always seemed too sewing machine like to me.
* solely my opinion, I realize this isn't true for everyone.
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Here’s the million dollar question. If it were not for the fact that with an electric vehicles saves one from being at the mercy of big oil and their varying prices would you still purchase an EV? Now let’s add one more variable. If your state or maybe even the federal government added a sufficient “use of highway “
Tax for your EV, would you still be all that interested in joining the stylish move of the EV world?
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Here’s the million dollar question. If it were not for the fact that with an electric vehicles saves one from being at the mercy of big oil and their varying prices would you still purchase an EV? Now let’s add one more variable. If your state or maybe even the federal government added a sufficient “use of highway “
Tax for your EV, would you still be all that interested in joining the stylish move of the EV world?
I can unequivocally answer that with a YES. My somewhat "low end" Chevy Bolt is my favorite of all the cars I have owned. More importantly I think, it also my wife's favorite car. My wife is the epitome of a non-car person. She never cared about much of anything regarding a car as long as it ran. But she actively LIKES the Bolt. Says she ENJOYS driving it. We both like the car because it is electric and the differences that makes to the driving and ownership experience.
You mention "varying gas prices" and the potential for use taxes. Keep in mind, regardless of these factors, the "fuel" cost for an electric will be FAR LESS than any ICE vehicle. Take for example a Prius:
-Prius gets 50 mpg. Gas costs $2 per gallon. So, $2/50 miles
-Chevy Bolt. I have averaged 4.4 miles per kilowatt hour (miles/KWH) over the life of the car (30,000 miles). Electricity here cost $0.10 per KWH. That comes to $1 to go 44 miles, or about $1.1/50 miles.
So, approximately 1/2 the cost of a Prius to run, even factoring in low gas prices. Plus no oil changes. No brake pads (you can drive for a week without even touching the brake pedal). No need to inconveniently stop for gas. Quiet. WAY more power and acceleration, like sports car vs. underpowered economy car more.
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^^^^ and.. we really need to curb burning fossil fuels. If our Prius ever wears out, we'll go full electric.
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Here’s the million dollar question. If it were not for the fact that with an electric vehicles saves one from being at the mercy of big oil and their varying prices would you still purchase an EV? Now let’s add one more variable. If your state or maybe even the federal government added a sufficient “use of highway “
Tax for your EV, would you still be all that interested in joining the stylish move of the EV world?
Some states already have a extra "use tax" on EV's. That being said, I enjoy the sound and feel of a IC engine. Granted I would LOVE to have something like a 70's era small import pickup thats EV for beating around town, going to the home center, dump, store etc. Short trips of 30-40 miles.. Jump in and buzz around town.
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Here’s the million dollar question. If it were not for the fact that with an electric vehicles saves one from being at the mercy of big oil and their varying prices would you still purchase an EV? Now let’s add one more variable. If your state or maybe even the federal government added a sufficient “use of highway “
Tax for your EV, would you still be all that interested in joining the stylish move of the EV world?
My "use of highway" tax is on my yearly registration. They call it a "wheel tax". Are you saying an additional tax based on mileage in lieu of the taxes collected at the gas pumps?
I would like to have an electric dual sport bike for riding around the woods in a stealthy way so I can hear and see nature and get in an out of places undetected. I may end up with an electric full suspension mountain bike, especially if they want to tax electric motorcycles.
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I kind of look forward to the time when my garage is re-shuffled and I can have either an electric adventure bike or sport-touring bike as my main commuter. That new Zero is coming close, as I would need quite a bit of weather protection for riding year round.
I would like to get down to 3 bikes. An FJR, Tenere 700 and a Zero SR/S. Oh, and gotta keep the Griso. Dang, that's one too many.
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You can bet no Government is going to lose out financially when EVs are the vast majority of vehicles on the roads.
They find some way to tax/charge you, so you'll be no better-off financially.
I would also bet that the price of EVs will go up massively, once there's no alternatives to go for.
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I know Oregon has looked hard at a "highway use" tax based on miles driven. Gas tax revenue is flat and will only get worse as electric cars proliferate. The "plan" is to require GPS miles on all motor vehicles to get a current registration. GPS tracking is already installed on most commercial vehicles. Just a theoretical money grab at this stage, but one can see where this is going. It would really cripple the kind of recreational riding we do as motorcyclists. Might make a weekend joy ride too expensive.
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I know Oregon has looked hard at a "highway use" tax based on miles driven. Gas tax revenue is flat and will only get worse as electric cars proliferate. The "plan" is to require GPS miles on all motor vehicles to get a current registration. GPS tracking is already installed on most commercial vehicles. Just a theoretical money grab at this stage, but one can see where this is going. It would really cripple the kind of recreational riding we do as motorcyclists. Might make a weekend joy ride too expensive.
We all have a say You can take it (you know where) or fight it.
I am enjoying my modern motorcycles today, but my retirement plan might mean a stable of "vintage" plated bikes that are one time only plates. Trailer them to different locations to "test my improvements" Insurance will be cheap as well.
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My "use of highway" tax is on my yearly registration. They call it a "wheel tax". Are you saying an additional tax based on mileage in lieu of the taxes collected at the gas pumps?
I would like to have an electric dual sport bike for riding around the woods in a stealthy way so I can hear and see nature and get in an out of places undetected. I may end up with an electric full suspension mountain bike, especially if they want to tax electric motorcycles.
Yes an additional tax for EV as there are no tax’s collected through gasoline at the pumps. This has been talked about since the start of EVs. I think it is speculation that at some point when EVs got wide spread enough this tax would be added. The reasoning is that roads and bridges still have to be produced and maintained and that owners on EVs would have to pay their fair share for the use and maintenance on the highways. I can see both sides of that future argument.
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Someone said EV? Been riding one for years.
(https://g2.img-dpreview.com/E118847B9B2E4890852FBE215A228ABE.jpg)
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Yes an additional tax for EV as there are no tax’s collected through gasoline at the pumps. This has been talked about since the start of EVs. I think it is speculation that at some point when EVs got wide spread enough this tax would be added. The reasoning is that roads and bridges still have to be produced and maintained and that owners on EVs would have to pay their fair share for the use and maintenance on the highways. I can see both sides of that future argument.
Well, screw that! If they don't make it economical I'm not going to play. When I retire my goal is going to be to pay the least amount I can to the Government. I might even become a entitled liberal. :tongue: