clutch problem the old one

[zari]

hello

I'm countered the old problem with my navada 1994  clutch .

every time after couple of ride , I'm adjust the clutch with the adj pin under the bike , but  After a while  I needed

to do this job again and again till  I can't adj because the screw reach the end .

my friends tell me that is possibility of motor movement  and this cause  the  motor   to seat on  the puserode and

wear him.(bearing play)

could anyone please comment on this following.


help  

this make me mad !!!!!! :wife:

zari :+=copcar :bike

[oldbike54]

Hmm , don't believe the motor moving , if it can , would have any bearing on the clutch . Unless you mean the rear main is so bad that the crank is thrashing about and causing problems . I do think that would manifest its self in lots of noise . Have you inspected the cable and actuating arm for damage ?
  Dusty

[zari]

hello
and thanks for the feedback

I'm already check the  cable and the Arm and found  thus O.K  the cable is new maybe the adjust screw have a play

there is no stopper  on it (nut (of a bolt).

waiting for advice

zari :PICS!:

[oldbike54]

Zari , we may have a language barrier here , so please be patient with us . Are you saying the clutch will not disengage after some use , or it feels as though it is slipping ?

   Dusty

[zari]

the clutch will not disengage after some use

[pehayes]

Zari:

First I recommend that you join the discussion forum at yahoo groups, "small_block_guzzi" as there will be many people there with bikes similar to yours.

Second, please tell me more about the symptoms of your hand clutch lever and your cable.  When the clutch friction material wears, the clutch system gets tighter and tighter until it begins to slip when hard power is applied.  Conversely, when the mechanical parts of the throwout system wear, the clutch system gets looser and looser until it becomes difficult to disengage or to shift gears.  I can't quite interpret which problem you have.

Third, do you say that the adjuster in the transmission arm has no nut on it?  That would be incorrect.  It must have a lock nut or it will change adjustment while you drive.

Fourth, tell me how much you adjust the system.  Do you 'snug' it up until all the components are tight?  That is a BAD thing to do for a Guzzi.    The rear of the transmission has a radial throwout bearing.  It is intended to move or work only when you pull the clutch handle to change gears.  That bearing is NOT intended for constant rotation.  If you adjust your system tight, the bearing works constantly and then wears very rapidly.  When the Guzzi clutch is adjusted properly, there should always be some looseness or freeplay in the cable so that the lever at the back of the transmission is NOT touching the clutch throwout parts.

Fifth, see #4 above.  If you let the bearing wear, it can then do serious damage to the center of the clutch components and you will have to remove the engine/transmission to correct it.  I would immediately remove the swingarm and remove the throwout bearing from the back of the transmission.  It is a radial bearing with two 'race washers'.  These race washers have a very hard bearing surface, but the hardness does not penetrate very deep.  Once you wear through the hard surface, the softer underlying steel wears very rapidly.  All kinds of bad things happen to the clutch and transmission.  Here is a picture of a worn bearing.  Both of those race washers should be mirror smooth.



Sixth, the suggestion of motor moving or crankshaft moving seems false.  Either would be an exceedingly rare circumstance.

Seventh, go under your bike with a camera and with a light.  When all the parts are new, the 'outer body' of the throwout system should be flush with the surrounding casting of the rear transmission cover like this:


As the friction material wears, the outer body begins to protrude outward from the transmission.  As the throwout components wear, the outer body begins to become recessed into the transmission like this:


Which condition do you have?  I highly suspect the latter condition.  Please inspect and report back.  If you can, please post a picture of the rear of your transmission showing the lever and its contact with the throwout system.  If you take my advice and remove the swingarm, please post a picture of your throwout bearing components.

Lastly, the arm at the back of the transmission is a class-2 lever and it produces about 5:1 mechanical advantage.  That ratio also applies to the motion of the parts.  1mm of motion or wear in the throwout system will produce about 5mm of change in the cable adjustment!  Most people don't realize that tiny amounts of wear in the component parts can create huge and rapid changes in the cable system.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Hmm , don't believe the motor moving , if it can , would have any bearing on the clutch . Unless you mean the rear main is so bad that the crank is thrashing about and causing problems . I do think that would manifest its self in lots of noise . Have you inspected the cable and actuating arm for damage ?
  Dusty

Small-blocks do have a thrust bearing, no. 9 in this illustration:



I suppose if these were worn enough the crank could move forward and cause the described issue.

[zari]

 :winer  thanks about your answer tell me  what do you think about next  another  friend answer (wear bearing inside the motor)? see next answer



best regards
zari :bike

[oldbike54]

Gonna take lots of coffee to understand that last question  :D **C . Zari , try rephrasing that last one , and no , I am not picking on you , what is your native tongue ?
  Dusty

[huub]

nothing wrong with the engine ,
but do inspect the throwour beaing.
the throwout bearing can pulled out from the back , but you might need to remove the swingarm.

dont ride the bike with a defective throwout bearing , debris is going to end up in the gearbox bearing ,
to change that means a complete gearbox strip.
( and it is a special  guzzi bearing)

[zari]

The clutch will not disengage after some use  and i must adj the tension by adj screw under the  bike  , but after a couple of adjust , I can't  doing this job because  the screw reach the end . I hope this help to view my problems


best regards
Zari :+=copcar :PICS!:

[oldbike54]

The clutch will not disengage after some use  and i must adj the tension by adj screw under the  bike  , but after a couple of adjust , I can't  doing this job because  the screw reach the end . I hope this help to view my problems


best regards
Zari :+=copcar :PICS!:

OK , shot in the dark here , actually two shots . First , are you adjusting the free play correctly at the lever , and is there any adjustment left at the lever ? I have a theory that if the clutch cable is adjusted to tight and the clutch is on the verge of slipping all of the time, the heat generated expansion causes problems . Don't scoff , I have seen this more than once .
   Dusty

[zari]

hello

what is the Dimensions (length and D) of the push road clutch? I want to compare between  my and the original . picture(http://www.stein-dinse.biz/images/product_images/popup_images/20085720.jpg
 :PICS!: :bike :+=copcar

[zari]

this is the pic of my clutch plate

are this central hole is ok  I MEAN  ORIGINAL OR IS THE RESULT OF  WEAR ?(https://www.flickr.com/photos/119534634@N05/14582129431/

 :wife: :+=copcar :PICS!:

[zari]

hello

how can I check this bearing free play without open the crank ? :PICS!: :bike :beat_horse

[zari]

how can I check this bearing free play without open the crank ? :PICS!: :+=copcar :bike

Small-blocks do have a thrust bearing, no. 9 in this illustration:



I suppose if these were worn enough the crank could move forward and cause the described issue.

[Chuck in Indiana]

If you are talking about the thrust bearings (9).. I would think a dial indicator on the end of the crankshaft snout would tell if there is any fore and aft movement.

[pehayes]

Zari:  Have you removed the swingarm and removed the throwout bearing at the back of the transmission?  We need photos of that bearing at the back of the transmission.  This discussion is going nowhere until we know the condition of that bearing.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[zari]

throwout bearing at the back of the transmission some pic

https://www.flickr.com/photos/119534634@N05/sets/72157644011196104/ :bike :+=copcar :beat_horse

[twhitaker]

It looks like the thrust races have used up about 120% of their expected lifespan.

[Guzzidad]

      I've seen this before. Replace the thrust bearing, inner body, outer body, and push rod. Not too expensive. The thrust bearing caused the damage to the other parts. The pictures you posted told the story. The burned end of the push rod showed it wasn't rotating with the clutch lever pulled in. That is the job of the thrust bearing. Unfortunately, that also damages the inner and outer bodies.

[zari]

Hello

What do you mean. Inner and. Outer bodies. Please explain
What kind of damage it can cause

[Vasco DG]

The two parts the thrust bearing and its races sit between.

Pete

[zari]

I offered to replace all components of. The. Clutch Is it supposed to solve the problem? :+=copcar
Could it be more serious damage

[Tobit]

Inner and outer bodies, races.   Are these....



Should look like one of these....



(picture obviously borrowed from MGCycles.)

Your clutch, (the friction and driven plates) should be fine.  

Replace the throwout bearing (MGCycle picture) and probably your rod.



Tobit

[kidneb]

      I've seen this before. Replace the thrust bearing, inner body, outer body, and push rod. Not too expensive. The thrust bearing caused the damage to the other parts. The pictures you posted told the story. The burned end of the push rod showed it wasn't rotating with the clutch lever pulled in. That is the job of the thrust bearing. Unfortunately, that also damages the inner and outer bodies.

:+1

[zari]

Hello everybody

I just finish to replace all clutch parts.  Push rod bearing .and ...   But I have. One question. When I  see the. Corona. (Timing hole). See in att digram. And. Push the clutch. Lever. I see. The corona moving forward 1 millimeter  when I. Released  lever the corona moving back is this. Normal

Pic link https://picasaweb.google.com/m/viewer?fgl=true&pli=1#search/117012899164096054821/clutch/6138605363513925346



Please help  :+=copcar

[rodekyll]

I can't see your picture.

If you mean that you see the edge of the flywheel (corona? crown?) moves forward and backward with the clutch, a little bit is normal.  The crankshaft is loose end-to-end and needs to float.  You could easily move it by hand with a screwdriver in the timing hole and hear a little 'clunk' noise.  The amount of float is set up by the front main bearing and is not adjustable.  So don't worry about it.   ;-T

Good to ask though.

How's the project coming along?

[John A]

The early 650C had a small batch of mismade crank thrust bearings that deformed when the case halfs were bolted together. It would destroy the thrust flange on the crankshaft . The symptoms would be that an engine perfectly tuned would die when the clutch lever was pulled in when warmed up. You can visually see the crank move fore and aft by pulling the lever which moves the crank forward then using a screwdriver through the inspection hole prying the crank aft you will be able to see the total end float, engine off. With the thrust too much the crank is being squeezed against the forward crankcase wall or moving away from the clutch pushrod. Your friend is wise and with a millimeter or more end float I suspect a crankshaft thrust bearing problem.

[zari]

hello
what do you think about answer  from  john suspect a crankshaft thrust bearing problem. :PICS!: :beat_horse :bike :winer