Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ohiorider on June 12, 2022, 07:46:35 PM
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OK, guys and gals ....... I've ridden bikes since forever, and should know the answer to this, but I don't!
My new 2021 Kawasaki W800 retro bike doesn't have balancing weights that glue to the alloy rims. It appears the balancing weights (if that's what they are) are attached to one of the spokes at a specific distance from the hub and rim, and are held in place on the spoke with a set screw. I'm only guessing that once the basic point of imbalance is figured out, the distance from the hub that the weights are located determines how much balancing force they will exert.
How does one balance a wheel with such a setup? I think it is retro, but this may be a step too far.
Bob
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When I balance a wheel, I use tape to temporarily hold the weight to the wheel until I’ve figured out the amount of weight necessary. You would do the same thing on your W800; and use weight wherever you want to put it. Personally, I use FabriTac glue and just glue them to the rim.
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With laced wheels I use stick-on weights temporarily to determine where & how much weight is needed. Once that determination is made, I go back with the specified weight in solder. I also use a Marc Parnes balancer in conjunction with a 1lb spool of solder & Wally World $15 digital scale.
(https://i.ibb.co/mcY5gXH/20220109-134340.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mcY5gXH)
Additionally, I have moved the solder wrap above the spoke nipple since taking this pic.
Art
PS - Hey Bob, we missed ya at Mike's Place for Guzzi Breakfast yesterday.
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What you can do is…
Make damn sure the wheel is true, because no amount of weight addition will remedy a geometrically eccentric wheel, it’ll thrash around like a cheap sex toy left running on the counter.
So we have a nice round wheel that’s spoked up truly.
Gently spin the wheel and allow it to come to rest with the heaviest point at the bottom and repeat a few times to average the results.
Mark the low (heavy) point with a marker and rotate the wheel so that the heavy point is at the 3 o’ clock position.
Fit the weight to the appropriate spoke at the 9o’clock position and slide it in or out so that upon release, the wheel will not attempt to rotate.
Several trial spins to make sure the wheel comes to rest in a different position each time, will indicate you have it balanced.
PersonallyI don’t like the notion of applying those sort of forces to the spoke, but people seem to get away with it.
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Bob - are they this sort of weight?
https://www.nomartirechanger.com/wt-spk12ch.html
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Or just skip balancing them all together. You may find there is no difference balanced or not.
Or you may find there is.
You could BS yourself into thinking the thrashing was just road irregularities, but that’s why some people’s bikes are nice to ride and some are not.
If you can’t be bothered balancing your wheels, you’re no better than someone who uses margarine in their cookies instead of butter…
Half arsed shortcut approach.
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Or just skip balancing them all together. You may find there is no difference balanced or not.
I would think if that were the case more folks would get away from balancing because of the expense and unaesthetic looking weights. Or what is an acceptable out of balance range...less than 1/4oz, 7g, etc.?
One of my (used) bikes came with balancing beads, while I thought they worked ok, everytime I checked tire pressure beads would not allow the schrader to re-seat and seal unless I added air to blow the veat seat clean. So, I'm not a fan of balancing beads but the benefit is no unsightly weights...I guess.
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Bob - are they this sort of weight?
https://www.nomartirechanger.com/wt-spk12ch.html
Hey Charlie,
If I had wheels as nice looking as those in the Nomar link I'd buy the Nomar weights vs. my backyard cheap azz solder baloney!
Art
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I enjoy balancing a motorcycle wheel. It’s a sick but rewarding practice for me. The closer you get to balance, the more difficult it becomes so I usually quit at a quarter ounce. I put a vibrater on my wheel stand to lessen the sticktion that would hold the wheel from rotating on its mandrels. After being a migrant helicopter mechanic and seeing the move to electronic balancing equipment which is very nice indeed, I still like the hands on intuitive methods I learned.
I never once regretted balancing a motorcycle wheel and tire after I’m over 80 mph..
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I stopped balancing wheels when I started using a tire sealant. They claim to also balance the wheel. So far - so good. https://www.ride-on.com/ (https://www.ride-on.com/)
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I enjoy balancing a motorcycle wheel. It’s a sick but rewarding practice for me. The closer you get to balance, the more difficult it becomes so I usually quit at a quarter ounce. I put a vibrater on my wheel stand to lessen the sticktion that would hold the wheel from rotating on its mandrels. After being a migrant helicopter mechanic and seeing the move to electronic balancing equipment which is very nice indeed, I still like the hands on intuitive methods I learned.
I never once regretted balancing a motorcycle wheel and tire after I’m over 80 mph..
Yes.
Tell me this isn’t fun.
https://youtu.be/RcIi5EUwDRo
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I guess I’ve just been lucky because over the 50+ years of riding and owning a couple dozen bikes and uncountable tires, I’ve never had a MC tire that had to be removed from the bike and balanced after changing out to new tires without balancing.
Not recommending or suggesting for one not to balance their MC tires, just sharing my personal experiences on the subject.
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I hate to admit that old(er) age might have confused me! In my mind, after looking at the weight on the W800, I pictured it as the NoMar weights shown in a previous part of this thread.
Not to be! I went back to the garage and re-examined the weight, and found it to be one that is crimped onto one of the spokes. Sorry, but I did learn a bunch about wheel weights from this thread! You guys are the best!
Bob
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I guess I’ve just been lucky because over the 50+ years of riding and owning a couple dozen bikes and uncountable tires, I’ve never had a MC tire that had to be removed from the bike and balanced after changing out to new tires without balancing.
Not recommending or suggesting for one not to balance their MC tires, just sharing my personal experiences on the subject.
Wow ! Now, THAT is pushing the envelope right there ! When I grow up, I wanna be just like YOU !
:boozing: :boozing: :boozing:
:bike-037:
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Wow ! Now, THAT is pushing the envelope right there ! When I grow up, I wanna be just like YOU !
:boozing: :boozing: :boozing:
:bike-037:
It’ll never happen grasshopper, I’m afraid you’ve missed the boat already 😂
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You know guys ( and gals ) I've never been able to see the visual difference wheel weights make to my bikes at 50mph :bow: . Peter
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You know guys ( and gals ) I've never been able to see the visual difference wheel weights make to my bikes at 50mph :bow: . Peter
Yes ....... and ........ ??
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I’m happy to have the freedom to maintain my motorcycle to my own standards. Most of the time modern tires are well balanced from the factory and don’t need correction. Sometimes the wheel itself is out . I just don’t like finding out around a hunnerd mph :grin:
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" it’ll thrash around like a cheap sex toy left running on the counter."
Experience?
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" it’ll thrash around like a cheap sex toy left running on the counter."
Experience?
No not personally..
I don’t leave mine on the counter… :rolleyes:
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We usually check them - on a static balancer.
Most times, they are "good enough"
(https://i.ibb.co/0t163Vc/PXL-20220519-204024031.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0t163Vc)
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Imho, I'll continue balance my wheels whenever I replace a tire. When I had access to an electronic wheel balancer, wheels would have zero imbalance when done. I don't have access to that equipment anymore so I got a Parnes balancer, I think it works adequately and I'm satisfied with the outcome. With so many other things on a bike that could produce an odd vibration (head/wheel/swing arm bearings, engine mounts, chewed up alt belt, center stand slop, etc.) why not balance or check for imbalance when given the opportunity (e.g. tire replacement). If the vehicle manufacturers could (save $$$) get away with not balancing wheel & tire assemblies they would. And, I think it would be more cost effective to use balancing beads or balancing Slime but they don't use that either....just my observations.
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now Art you are just making to much damned sense......
Mark
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I have a good static balancer. I always balance my newly mounted tires, just to know I’ve done the job right.
As to the wheel weight itself, I used to buy the special made ones. But then I realized that I already have tens of thousands of little pieces of lead, so now I use those instead. Don’t judge me. It works fine, and sometimes starts interesting conversations.
(https://i.ibb.co/2nzsdDw/57-B4-C4-A7-82-A1-4-DC0-ADFD-2-FE27-C916-A30.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2nzsdDw)
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I’ve read a lot of posts here about checking static balance and that’s ok, but as mentioned, you must check and ascertain that your wheels are true.
Especially spoked ones.
It’s utterly pointless trying to balance a wheel that has radial runout (especially).
If the radius of the wheel is larger at the valve (for instance) than radially opposite even by 2 mm, that will show up as a heavy spot at the valve and you will feel constrained to add weight on the opposite side.
That will give you perfect static balance, but you will still have a vibrating wheel in motion.
Can be quite perplexing when first encountered.
Also with the greatest of respect to anyone who holds the opinion that it’s a waste of time…
You can ride off down the road and feel all the lumps and bumps that a modern road can throw at you and tell yourself that the surface is crap and it possibly is, but some of those shocks coming up the ‘bars, will be from the wheel.
Make no mistake, if you true and balance your wheels and give your Guzzi written notice that you are going to zoom up to 200 kph on a smooth road..?
It’s really nice to look down at the front axle and it’s dead still.
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I put a vibrater on my wheel stand
:gotpics:
This’ll be good.
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:gotpics:
This’ll be good.
I thought everyone did that. I wouldn’t have mentioned it but I had visions of yours on the counter, I never even heard of that before….
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I’ve read a lot of posts here about checking static balance and that’s ok, but as mentioned, you must check and ascertain that your wheels are true.
Especially spoked ones.
:thumb:
I find myself more closely scrutinizing wheel true/run-out/spoke tension now that I'm static balancing my wheels. Fortunately for me, I haven't encountered a truing issue...yet.
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I have developed the habit of balancing the bare (tireless) wheels with a somewhat permanent weight. Most tires I have found are "close" to being balanced so mounting and balancing the tire usually takes an oz or so. (sometimes less)
I'm definitely in the "should balance" camp. I believe it to be needed and should be done especially if you are a "high-speed type or going for a track day run. (Also long-distance at freeway speeds).
My .02c
:-)
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^^^ Yep, it becomes more important the faster you travel. while I can’t claim wheel bearings last longer, I think they do. Vibration can be a weird thing, even when it’s imperceptible. Harmonics can make other things vibrate under different conditions. Adding them all up, it’s a wonder they are as smooth as they are.
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Thanx everyone. The accumulated knowledge is a breath of fresh air compared to similar - regarding lubricants. R3~
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I have developed the habit of balancing the bare (tireless) wheels with a somewhat permanent weight. Most tires I have found are "close" to being balanced so mounting and balancing the tire usually takes an oz or so. (sometimes less)
I'm definitely in the "should balance" camp. I believe it to be needed and should be done especially if you are a "high-speed type or going for a track day run. (Also long-distance at freeway speeds).
My .02c
:-)
Interesting point about permanently balancing the bare wheel, I think I will try that the next tire change (hope I remember to do that when the time comes :grin:).
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Before installing a new tire on the cast rear wheel of my V50 III, I decided I'd check the balance of the bare wheel. The wheel runs true and had no cush drive rubbers or valve stem in it. I was quite surprised to find that it was out of balance by nearly 2 ounces! :shocked:
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Yeah, I could permanently balance the wheel but I'd still have add weight when I re-balance with tire installed so, I guess the benefit would be less wasted wheel weights over the life of the bike especially if the wheels happened to be way out of whack originally.
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Not necessarily. I've been doing the bare wheels for years using JB weld to glue weights to the center of the rim while changing tires. 90% of the time no extra weights are needed with any good tire.
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...I'm gonna put a note on my new tires so I don't forget to check wheel balance before I mount the new tires next month. I'm kinda curious now about how much imbalance there actually is in my wheels.
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For those who don't bother to balance tires I would suggest at least have the wheels themselves balanced next time the tires are off. At the first tire change on a new (to me) motorcycle I balance the wheels themselves. I've found some to be pretty decent while others needed a *lot* of weights. IIRC the rear wheel on a 2000 Honda Nighthawk 750 I had holds the record for most weights. To distinguish, I spray paint the weights that balance the wheels the color of the wheels, the weights balancing the tires are left natural lead.
Every wheel with TPS that I've checked have been *way* off. You'd think manufacturers would alert their wheel manufacturers to "lighten" the spot at the valve (and TPS) by an amount equal to what the TPS adds, but in the ones I've done so far this has not been the case. On my R1200RS I had to add a lot of weights opposite the valve/TPMS both F&R. I can't imagine how crappy the bike'd ride (and tires unevenly wear) if just spooning a new tire on (especially the front) w/o balancing?
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I am amazed that no one on this topic has mentioned Dyna Beads for tubeless tires. Forget balancing with weights. I started using Dyna Beads years ago and have never looked back. And no....I have never noticed any wear inside the tubeless tire because of them.[/size][/size][/size]
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I am amazed that no one on this topic has mentioned Dyna Beads for tubeless tires. Forget balancing with weights. I started using Dyna Beads years ago and have never looked back. And no....I have never noticed any wear inside the tubeless tire because of them.[/size][/size][/size]
Tried them once, didn't seem to do anything much, never used them again.
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I am amazed that no one on this topic has mentioned Dyna Beads for tubeless tires. Forget balancing with weights. I started using Dyna Beads years ago and have never looked back. And no....I have never noticed any wear inside the tubeless tire because of them.[/size][/size][/size]
I bought a '72 Eldo in 2014 from the original owner, he had installed dyna beads to balance the wheels/tires. I figure the dyna beads worked well because I never noticed any odd or annoying vibration that I could attribute to wheel balance. However, every time I went to check tire pressure the schrader valve would not seat & seal unless I added air to blow debris off of the valve seat so it would reseal. I figure over time those little beads just got smaller & smaller until they were the perfect size to clog the schrader during a routine tire pressure check. Anyway, I just replaced the tires & tubes on that bike so, no more beads for me.
(https://i.ibb.co/D13k7tZ/Dyna-Beads.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D13k7tZ)
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I bought a '72 Eldo in 2014 from the original owner, he had installed dyna beads to balance the wheels/tires. I figure the dyna beads worked well because I never noticed any odd or annoying vibration that I could attribute to wheel balance. However, every time I went to check tire pressure the schrader valve would not seat & seal unless I added air to blow debris off of the valve seat so it would reseal. I figure over time those little beads just got smaller & smaller until they were the perfect size to clog the schrader during a routine tire pressure check. Anyway, I just replaced the tires & tubes on that bike so, no more beads for me.
(https://i.ibb.co/D13k7tZ/Dyna-Beads.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D13k7tZ)
I love dyna beads. Never looked back. They have another brand at oriellys auto parts that’s same thing a lot cheaper too. I can’t remember the brand
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Those damn dyna beads.
Clear thinking individuals swear by them, but I cannot understand the physics….. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Before installing a new tire on the cast rear wheel of my V50 III, I decided I'd check the balance of the bare wheel. The wheel runs true and had no cush drive rubbers or valve stem in it. I was quite surprised to find that it was out of balance by nearly 2 ounces! :shocked:
Not hard to understand why a cast wheel is often quite a way out of balance.
Ciao
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three or four tires back I balanced my rims, haven't had to change the weights since, not perfect but close enough. Tires are pretty well balanced these days. Just balance your rims and save yourself a lot of trouble.
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Those damn dyna beads.
Clear thinking individuals swear by them, but I cannot understand the physics….. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Some sanctioning bodies in racing don’t approve of them and similar products because if they clump up in a high speed unusual circumstance it leads to a spectacular disintegration of the wheel and tire assembly. Rare, I’m sure but the possibility exists
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FWIW....
I Pulled the rear wheel off my '87 LMIV to replace the worn Dunlop Arrowmax GT501 with a new Bridgestone Battlax BT46.
- The "old tire" and wheel assembly had 21grams of weight.
- I removed the old tire and weights, the wheel (without tire) took 15grams to balance the wheel.
- I then installed the new BT46 and had to add another 20grams to balance, for a grand total of 35g to completely balance the wheel & tire assembly. So, the wheel had 15g at one location and 20g at another location.....30-40 degrees apart I figure.
Curiousity got to me....
- I removed the 35g of weight I had installed (15g to balance wheel & 20g to further balance after installing tire) and proceeded to re-balance.
- To re-balance the wheel with tire installed required 28g...in one location (radii?).
Is a 7g difference meaningful? IDK.
So, when I go to do the front tire replacement next week, am I going to balance the bare wheel & check/add weight with new tire installed or balance the wheel & tire as one assembly? IDK but I'm kinda leaning toward balancing tire & wheel as one assembly.
As one of the guy's said at one of the rally's "Who cares?" :grin:
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FWIW....
I Pulled the rear wheel off my '87 LMIV to replace the worn Dunlop Arrowmax GT501 with a new Bridgestone Battlax BT46.
- The "old tire" and wheel assembly had 21grams of weight.
- I removed the old tire and weights, the wheel (without tire) took 15grams to balance the wheel.
- I then installed the new BT46 and had to add another 20grams to balance, for a grand total of 35g to completely balance the wheel & tire assembly. So, the wheel had 15g at one location and 20g at another location.....30-40 degrees apart I figure.
Curiousity got to me....
- I removed the 35g of weight I had installed (15g to balance wheel & 20g to further balance after installing tire) and proceeded to re-balance.
- To re-balance the wheel with tire installed required 28g...in one location (radii?).
Is a 7g difference meaningful? IDK.
So, when I go to do the front tire replacement next week, am I going to balance the bare wheel & check/add weight with new tire installed or balance the wheel & tire as one assembly? IDK but I'm kinda leaning toward balancing tire & wheel as one assembly.
As one of the guy's said at one of the rally's "Who cares?" :grin:
It's complicated. Imagine a sand cast wheel and the casting core is 1mm off centre in the mould. The wheel then gets cast and the hub centre machined and then the rim turned. You end up with a rim and hub thats concentric but with a rim cross section thats 1mm thicker at one location and 1 mm thinner at the opposite location. However it's not so simple as this mass difference all being located at 1 point. The difference tapers off over 90 deg radially in both directions from the thickest cross section which spreads the imbalance. This is why you sometimes see wheels with weights spread over an area. I had a Campag magnesium race wheel once that was particularly bad which would not balance with weights in one location. Balancing the wheel and then the wheel and tyre assembly sounds like a logical idea but in practice it's more complex than this. I think it's sensible to mark the heaviest or lightest location on the wheel and then when you replace the tyre align the tyre red or yellow dot accordingly and balance the assembly. What we do with regards to motorcycle wheel balance is very crude indeed but adequate. I've had to calculate fan trim balance on high bypass jet engines when we needed to replace individual damaged fan blades and that was done with weight calculations and plotting lines on Vector graphs then adjusting balance weight screws in the spinner then running the engine and monitoring the imbalance. Eventually we ended up with computer software that took care of the calculations which was a load off my mind I can tell you.
Ciao
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Hey Phil,
Ok, I don't understand.....
So, I mark the heavy spot (bottom) & light spot (top) of the wheel, they'll be 180 degrees apart....in my mind!!?? Where do I position the yellow/red dot? And then, I balance the whole assembly...right?
Thanks,
Art
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Hey Phil,
Ok, I don't understand.....
So, I mark the heavy spot (bottom) & light spot (top) of the wheel, they'll be 180 degrees apart....in my mind!!?? Where do I position the yellow/red dot? And then, I balance the whole assembly...right?
Thanks,
Art
I was just saying Art that using separate permanently fitted weights to balance the wheel independently may seem logical but in practice I believe balance is more complex in it's nature. When I replace a tyre I find the lightest spot on the rim (without any balance weights fitted) then position the tyres red dot (if it has one) at that point then balance the wheel and tyre assembly together.
Phil
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Hi Phil,
Thanks for the quick response, I understand. I still have the front wheel to do sometime this week, I'll try your method!
Art
6/27 Update:
Ok, I pulled the front wheel and removed the old tire today. The light spot was apparently opposite of the valve stem. So, I mounted the new tire, located the tire balance dot 180° out from the valve stem (heavy spot). It took 39grams to balance the assembly. Then, out of curiousity, I aligned the tire balance dot with the valve stem (heavy spot) and proceeded to rebalance. The repositioned assembly required 3g to balance. I didn't have a 3g weight but had an old/unused 7g lead weight that I was able to easily cut in half and use. Yeah, can't cut these new Fe weights and expect them to stick.
I think I'm done experimenting with wheel balancing and will stick to generally accepted methods (align tire balance dot with valve stem)unless one of my wheels appears to require a large amount of weight to balance, in which case I will try relocating tire position on wheel to lessen the amount of weight required to balance, I guess.
Anyway, this was the fifth tire & wheel I've done with my nomar, Mojolever & Marc Parnes balancer so it has been a bit of a learning experience. And, I'm pleased that I've been successful and haven't accidentally ruined a new tire!