Author Topic: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem  (Read 1433 times)

Offline fedeskiff

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V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« on: December 08, 2022, 07:18:43 AM »
Hello to everyone!
I own a precious V7 Classic 2009. Its a bike in a really good condition with 19.400km on it.
It's been an year more or less since i bought it. It's my first large cc motorcycle and so far it's been a relationship of both love and hate.

Since I bought it I've been having some trouble with the Idling. The previous owner told me that sometimes the bike stalls in hot weather. I thought that with a simple TB balance and some idle adjusting the bike would run fine.

Some months later i took the bike to the Official Dealer in Spain, where they balance the TBs and Adjusted the idle. Unfortunately the problem still remains.

The bike iddles great for a long time, suddenly (when engine is hot) rpms start to drop until bike stalls. This could be avoided with a small blip of the throttle and the bike idles like bethoven again. It's getting hard to find the problem due this unexpected frequency of the failure.

I can recognize that this behavior it's very often when the engine is hot.


Things i already checked:

Spark plugs are new and according with the manual.
When idling fine, you can maintain idling unplugging any of the plugs. (I didn't find a failure in cylinders).
Air filter is new.
Oil is fresh. I need to recheck the level to see if it's not over.
Battery voltage when idling is 12.4v. When adding throttle climbs to 13v and beyond. 

any guesses would be a great starting point to me.


Thanks for taking the time, I love the riding of this bike when it's running however I am feeling stuck with this problem with the idling and sometimes I want to sell the bike.

Fede












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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2022, 07:54:44 AM »
To what rpm is the hot idle set? It could be as simple as increasing the hot idle speed very slightly.

Also how is the TPS set? I would be curious to connect a DVOM to the TPS and watch voltage output at idle and while opening and closing the throttle to see if there is a spike or drop near idle.

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2022, 08:02:19 AM »
This might be incredibly obvious, but are your valves too tight? My V65 (which is similar in some ways, not so much in others) would exhibit the exact same behavior when the valves (exhaust) needed adjustment. As the engine heated, they would tighten just enough to kill it.  After a hard run down the mountains, I would arrive at the base and stop at a stoplight, the iddle would hunt down until it stalled.

Adjusting them to the loosest spec would remedy the problem for several thousand miles
« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 08:06:16 AM by Mayor_of_BBQ »
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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2022, 08:07:09 AM »
When is working fine, the bike idles like Beethoven at 1150rpm. However when the failure appears, rpms drop less than 900.
Sacred screw was initially touched by some inoperant mechanic. However the service workshop reseted the sacred by matching the yellow paint mark that was still in place.

After getting the sacred back into place, bike has been balanced, reseted TPS, and then increased by opening both air bleed screws (something that i find out strange because I understood that you need to open only one).

I'll check with the DVOM the TPS output. Which is the range that i should be looking at?

thanks

Fede

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2022, 08:07:09 AM »

Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2022, 08:10:09 AM »
This might be incredibly obvious, but are your valves too tight? My V65 (which is similar in some ways, not so much in others) would exhibit the exact same behavior when the valves (exhaust) needed adjustment. As the engine heated, they would tighten just enough to kill it.  After a hard run down the mountains, I would arrive at the base and stop at a stoplight, the iddle would hunt down until it stalled.

Adjusting them to the loosest spec would remedy the problem for several thousand miles

I trusted the valves clearance set by the  official mechanical service. However as soon as I get my bike back I'll check it. Sounds like is matching the problem.

However i'll guess in that case bike will always idle unsteady and the failure would not be suddenly.


Thanks a lot

Fede

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2022, 08:28:00 AM »
Both air screws should be bout 1/2- 3/4 open not just one. Maybe TB's are dirty, if airscrew is all gooed up it will be worse when cold.
I clean my TB's every 10Kmi, it makes a difference. Make sure valves are set at .006" intake & .008" exhaust, not 4 & 6.
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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2022, 08:42:08 AM »
Both air screws should be bout 1/2- 3/4 open not just one. Maybe TB's are dirty, if airscrew is all gooed up it will be worse when cold.
I clean my TB's every 10Kmi, it makes a difference. Make sure valves are set at .006" intake & .008" exhaust, not 4 & 6.

Hi Steve, thank you so much for your suggestions. TB's have been cleaned by the Mechanic. I suggested to him checking the stepper but he replied to me that in this bike, with 19.400km, it's hard to believe that this is generating the problem.

Would you recommend me any other check that is causing suddenly rpm drops ?


Thanks

Fede

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2022, 09:06:37 AM »
I suggested to him checking the stepper but he replied to me that in this bike, with 19.400km, it's hard to believe that this is generating the problem.

Stepper? Like an Idle Air Control valve?!?

Because there isn't one on a 2TB smallblock. That's why you have a fast-idle lever on left grip.
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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2022, 09:12:46 AM »
Stepper? Like an Idle Air Control valve?!?

Because there isn't one on a 2TB smallblock. That's why you have a fast-idle lever on left grip.

Ups! I expected to have a stepper valve. So does the idle relies only on the air intake by sacred screw and bypass?

Usually adding a little fast-idle lever fixes the problem.

Thanks

fede

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2022, 09:27:17 AM »
Ups! I expected to have a stepper valve. So does the idle relies only on the air intake by sacred screw and bypass?

Usually adding a little fast-idle lever fixes the problem.

Thanks

fede

Yes, idle is completely mechanically controlled.

Hot idle by the linkage and bypass screws.

Cold/Fast idle by using that fast idle lever to hold the linkage open slightly thereby increasing air flow to the throttle bodies and idle speed. It's the same as temporarily changing the closed position of the throttle grip.
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2022, 11:06:31 AM »
Make sure you are looking in the correct bike manual like Kev says, it is not like the other Guzzi's of that era. More like a California model.
That's why I mentioned the Valve setting, book say's one thing but it is too small and finally updated in 2012 or so. The mechanic should know that if he's been at dealer for a while.
For a higher idle you could open airscrews equally a bit like 1/8 turn more, usually done w/carb sync attached so to be equal. Make sure they are not closed. It will run rich mixture when closed.
Idle speed is set with the airscrews, open more to increase.
There was also an update on the fuel tank valve for the vent on this model, Behind the LH throttle body to inside is location. Newer valve is blue/yellow, old one is gray. New one has no restrictions in it. It is also called a tipover valve to keep fuel leaking if bike is laid over.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 11:48:39 AM by guzzisteve »
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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2022, 11:53:14 AM »
Make sure you are looking in the correct bike manual like Kev says, it is not like the other Guzzi's of that era. More like a California model.
That's why I mentioned the Valve setting, book say's one thing but it is too small and finally updated in 2012 or so. The mechanic should know that if he's been at dealer for a while.
For a higher idle you could open airscrews equally a bit like 1/8 turn more, usually done w/carb sync attached so to be equal. Make sure they are not closed. It will run rich mixture when closed.

Thanks for de detail about different engine, I was following the classic workshop manual as a guide, the dealer is following that manual as well. Valves are not 0.15mm and 0.20mm for sure.

Unfortunately as I said before, the worst thing about this problem is that it's not systematic. Bike may idle 4 minutes great and then suddenly starts to fail (until throttle blip).  The only thing that i am finding strange is that, in case of being a TB setup problem, the bike would always fail , am i right making this assumptions?

I'll refer to the california manual for learning more stuff.

Thanks

Fede


Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2022, 12:31:22 PM »
Valves should be .15 & .20 for it to run correctly. Looser setting so they don't burn valves over time.
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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2022, 09:40:47 AM »
Spark plug resistor caps with high resistance or intermittent opens when hot can produce these symptoms. Thay should be replaced prophylactic.

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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2022, 10:20:51 AM »
I just picked up the bike from the Dealer, I thought he was going to tell me that they didn't work on it but he surprised me telling that the bike was done.
He raised the idling speed adjusting bypass screws apparently.
I went for a ride and did not experienced any stalling. This ride included some avenues, little highway, practicing low speed maneuvering in parking lot, and going back to the city.

When i arrived to the garage i plugged the guzziDiag to check the actual settings. I'll post a video, what do you guys think about?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EXNzn7X-lsZV4lQH2ZTBpEwooTJtiYan/view?usp=share_link

thanks

fede

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2022, 01:29:17 PM »
That looks fine, bout the same as the ones I looked at. Even 1200rpm is OK for that motor. Now go ride, see if all is well.
Sounds like you got a nice shop you go to, got you in to adj a little bit.
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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2022, 11:18:56 AM »
Hello to everyone! Just an update here,

After picking the bike from the workshop and testing, i realized it's stalling again.
I wont take again the same bike to the shop cause they are not able to find the problem. (official dealer)

I just did a video of the way the bike stalls when failing, maybe its useful for somebody to give me any advice.

I'll check all the things listed on top, but I can still not explain why sometimes the bike works great, and sometimes stall. It doesn't matter if its cold or hot weather.

I hope to find the problem otherwise I'll sold the bike cause it's driving me crazy :(

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gUhMeXE1XhaD5o2_yM3GYfF1cwJrIcOU/view?usp=sharing

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2022, 12:09:52 PM »
Did the shop check the fuel pump? Especially the 1/2 plastic fuel filter. Fuel filter should be an all metal one. Some had a bad fuel line that would slide off pump. Sounds like it runs out of gas & dies or fuel pump shuts off.
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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2022, 12:24:11 PM »
Did the shop check the fuel pump? Especially the 1/2 plastic fuel filter. Fuel filter should be an all metal one. Some had a bad fuel line that would slide off pump. Sounds like it runs out of gas & dies or fuel pump shuts off.

Nope, they did nothing, just adjusting the idling but not looking for the problems. I'll do this myself. Do I need to undo the fuel tank for checking this?

Thanks

Fede

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2022, 12:58:09 PM »
Yes, you need to take fuel pump plate off the underside of tank. Empty tank first then disconnect lines, 6 small bolts hold it in place w/rubber gasket. There is an electrical plug also.
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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2022, 01:27:48 PM »
Perfect, could you please tell me how I can also check the vent valve?

Thanks

Fede

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2022, 03:08:48 PM »
That was in a bulletin here to swap out for a blue/orange one. Free from importer, free flowing but a membrane to keep in fuel.  It is on a line to tank and to the inside of LH throttle body, most likely a gray plastic part. There is also a hose for the cap drain that goes down. If you search here you may find pictures of all this, might be in archives from 09-10.
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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2022, 01:21:18 PM »
That was in a bulletin here to swap out for a blue/orange one. Free from importer, free flowing but a membrane to keep in fuel.  It is on a line to tank and to the inside of LH throttle body, most likely a gray plastic part. There is also a hose for the cap drain that goes down. If you search here you may find pictures of all this, might be in archives from 09-10.

Do you know if this issue was also known for European bikes? Mine is in Spain.
How can I check if the tank cap is the right one?

Thanks

Fede.

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2022, 08:58:49 AM »
Don't know if they swapped out tipover valve in Spain. OR which cap. Here is a Service manual

https://guzzitek.org/gb/ma_us_uk/750/V7Classic_022009_Atelier(GB).pdf

Here is a parts book

https://guzzitek.org/parts_list/pb/750/V7_PL_Compil.pdf

The cap vent should line up with hole and hose that goes through tank to the vent hose.
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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2022, 01:12:24 PM »
Today I checked the valves specs, they were off by a little towards loose side. Some asshole mechanic used Silicon instead of a proper gasket. Official service done nothing about this so they never checked the valves.

I inspected the Spark plugs and connectors, everything looks good so far.

I took also out the injectors for cleaning, I am updating a photo for some feedback.

thanks to everyone

Fede






Online Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2022, 01:48:38 PM »
That video sounded like you had one cylinder firing properly and one missing during the drama.
Some of the responses here although worth checking out, do seem to fall over due to the report you gave that the bike picks up again with a crisp blip of the throttle and continues to idle properly for some time .
If a short blip temporarily banishes the problem, I cannot (yet) see how it can be a setting issue…(valves etc…)
It sounded like one spark was failing and the live cylinder could not maintain the idle.
Are the spark plugs the correct heat range ?
One sounds like it’s gently fouling and the blip clears the issue.
Perplexing for sure… :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2022, 01:54:05 PM »
When idling fine, you can maintain idling unplugging any of the plugs. (I didn't find a failure in cylinders).
What do you mean by this ?
Are you suggesting that it will idle one one cylinder, dragging the dead one ?

Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2022, 02:27:22 PM »
What do you mean by this ?
Are you suggesting that it will idle one one cylinder, dragging the dead one ?

Hi huzo thanks for the message,

When the bike is idling in a good manner, its able to still go on if you disconnect one spark plug. It does not matter if it's left or right.

I agree with you that sometimes seems like there's one cylinder failing.

I am checking at the moment everything related to fuel system. Would you give me any advice for checking related to electrical?

Spark Plugs are NGK BR8ES
I purchased them by amazon https://www.amazon.es/gp/product/B0000AXR7A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks

Fede

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2022, 03:42:25 PM »
Hi huzo thanks for the message,

When the bike is idling in a good manner, its able to still go on if you disconnect one spark plug. It does not matter if it's left or right.

I agree with you that sometimes seems like there's one cylinder failing.

I am checking at the moment everything related to fuel system. Would you give me any advice for checking related to electrical?

Spark Plugs are NGK BR8ES
I purchased them by amazon https://www.amazon.es/gp/product/B0000AXR7A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks

Fede
Ok…
Next time it misbehaves, take one plug lead off and see if the apparent problem goes away..
Try to ascertain if you have one cylinder failing or both..(I think one).
If you can find which side, you are on your way.
If the bike dies immediately when you remove the (left) cap, then the right cylinder is the failing one.
If it does not die, then the left cylinder is the failing one.
Personally, I would obtain two timing lights and try to get the bike to fail in the darkness. You should see the hesitancy in the indications of the lights.
That of course does not rule out plugs, but you have renewed them.
Attaching a timing light would indicate if your issue is fuel or spark.

While typing, I wondered if you have a sticking valve.
That would link the issue to a hot motor and also provide some context as to why a sharp blip helps to clear it.

It REALLY sounds like one pot laying down gently to me….
« Last Edit: December 25, 2022, 03:53:55 PM by Huzo »

Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2022, 04:22:21 PM »
Ok…
Next time it misbehaves, take one plug lead off and see if the apparent problem goes away..
Try to ascertain if you have one cylinder failing or both..(I think one).
If you can find which side, you are on your way.
If the bike dies immediately when you remove the (left) cap, then the right cylinder is the failing one.
If it does not die, then the left cylinder is the failing one.
Personally, I would obtain two timing lights and try to get the bike to fail in the darkness. You should see the hesitancy in the indications of the lights.
That of course does not rule out plugs, but you have renewed them.
Attaching a timing light would indicate if your issue is fuel or spark.

While typing, I wondered if you have a sticking valve.
That would link the issue to a hot motor and also provide some context as to why a sharp blip helps to clear it.

It REALLY sounds like one pot laying down gently to me….

Yes buddy that seems very logical to me too. I'll try to check for failures tomorrow after cleaning the injectors.

I did an Arduino Uno powered pulse machine (photo attached) it has a pot so i can change the pulse of the injection.

You surprised me with the sticking valve, how that might be possible?

Thanks

Fede





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