TPS calibration

[Bison]

Hi folks,
Thanks for all the replies.
Tried the meter on the tps months ago, fine, then I moved into the digital worls and traced the curve on Guzzi diag, fine. It seems the problem is not the actual function of the tps, but that the base level is randomly reseting when I close then open the throttle. And I wondered if the tps becoming confused for that moment could cause the engine to die then pick up again I was plucking at straws replacing the injection relay again, I honestly don't know if that can have any influence on the tps reseting. Today I'm going to take the airbox off again, check all the earths snd wiring again, run a seperate earth from the ecu to the battery earth  again., then I'm going to see if I can get a test ride on a v85tt and a certain other Italian motorcycle which starts with D and ends with ucati. Thing is I love my Norge, it's the perfect bike for me. Well, apart from the weight.
If my son can access the eeprom on the computer I have been given something to try by Thee Guru of Guzzi electronics though. So perhaps not all is lost. I just know it will be something silly!...

[Bison]

OK, with my limited brain capacity I've been trying to be logical, no sniggering at the back there Smithers!.
This all started with a non functioning start button. The start relay was not earthing through the ecu pin. Replacing the ecu fixed this. Before replacing the ecu I had a total electrical  black out for about a minute while trying to start the bike, it turned over about 2 or 3 times then I lost all electrical power, then came back on by itself after about a couple of minutes. Immediately after this it started cutting out. And has been ever since. It is random. The cutting out resets the tps, my logic is that the tps being out of spec will make the bike run rough and also idle poorly, stalling sometimes  but it would not make the engine cut out then pick up again randomly..when the engine then gets power the tps is reset at the angle its at when power restores. The dash while all this cutting out is happening behaves perfectly normally, no lights on, or lack of speedo or rev counter.
All of these events point to one source, grounds/earth's. I have been through every earth on the bike multiple times, over and over again. Today I'm going to run as many separate earth to the ecu, frame, engine as I can, I have a bundle of earth leads.
Please do knock flaws in this summation, and if I've already been down that road I'll say.
The other logical thought is fuel starvation, but once again, everything has been out of the tank and checked.
I'm going to run separate earth's from the fuel pump, sidstand switch and injector relay to the battery earth

[Tom H]

Could the ECU be loosing power? That MAY??? cause it to loose it's settings?? (EXPERT ADVISE NEEDED HERE). Maybe if there is a power loss to the ECU or somewhere else, that could also be causing your cutting out issue??

I think we have already been through checking the wires at the dash by engine running and turning the bars, wiggling wires as well as key switch. Might try wiggling the key switch when it cuts out, as well as to off then back to on.

Kiwi Roy is fond of using small lights to monitor electrical systems. He may be able to describe what needs to be done and where to add some lights.

Another thought that I'm not sure if it's been covered already. Coils. Maybe when they get hot they fail? If when the bike cuts out and stays that way for a few minutes, you should be able to pull a plug wire and stick in a spare plug and ground the plug to the head to check for spark. Careful, only hold it by the rubber boot.

Good luck,
Tom

[Bison]

Hi Tom,
Thanks for the suggestion. The ecu losing power is of corse possible, but how I would check for that I have no idea, I would have thought it would have generated a fault code?. The coils I think are unlikely as the whole bike cuts out, and the chances of two coils going in the same way at the same time are minimal I think.. No possibility of testing anyway, it cuts out for literally 2 or 3 seconds, then picks right up again  if it stops at a junction it starts again instantly.
Wiggling the key is a good idea, but I doubt I would have time, and when it does come back in, you don't know when, you need two hands on the bars, it's really quite dangerous..
I didn't get to it today, I was working on my Ducati rebuild.

[guzzisteve]

I'm not reading back but did you also put a new cam wheel sensor on it, the one in front of LH cyl ?

[Tom H]

Another thought on the cutting out at least. I know you checked all the sensors to see if they should be working. But...

Maybe you can find a way to temporarily bypass these two? Or....Activate them in you workspace and see if the bike does the EXACT same things like dash on or off and the like.

Sidestand. You either need to jumper the wires or just pull one lead off. Stand may be moving just a hair or two and activating the switch, may need to be adjusted.

Tipover. Maybe it's overly sensitive and is being jostled just right. Not sure how to bypass it. Maybe pull it out and hold uptight and see the readings and then on it's side or even upside down and see what it reads.

Tom

[GuzziOrDeath]

ECU losing power won't cause the TPS to change values. The offset value is stored in the EEPROM. Also, ECU losing power would cause the "ECU unplugged" message on the dash.

The TPS offset stored in the ECU is based on the voltage measured by the ECU with the throttle closed. If that voltage changes, then the relative value of the TPS throttle angle will be affected.

Therefore, given there is a new ECU, this issue can only be caused by the actual TPS "throttle closed" position, or a wiring/ground problem affecting the voltage on the TPS.

[Bison]

Thanks folks.
As reported, wiring or grounds I think, and I'm thinking grounds most likely as there was a non grounding problem with the start button. Today I'll try to get round to rigging separate ground wires. I have the stand jumpered, just the same.

[Bison]

Hi Folks,
I've been delaying this post so I could get some miles on, got about 250 now, so I didn't tempt fate. It's fixed, there, I said it, aaarrgghh.
OK, Norge ECU wasn't fixed, but the "fixer will provide a new ECU at around £60 more, as I've already paid to have it fixed it's a no brainer.
 I knew the TPS from the Ducati and the Norge were different, one adjusted manually, one electronically, but had no idea what controlled them other than the ecu. I had my son download the EEPROM from the Guzzi ecu, then I fitted the Ducati 5AM ECU again and had him write over the Ducati EEPROM with the Guzzi one. Fixed, the TPS is now steady.
The bike is running better than it ever has.
I'm pretty sure my original problem was caused by a faulty tilt switch, which I replaced, along with many other components.
So, many thanks people, I hope this will help another poor soul not to have this journey!
Alan.

[lucky phil]

Hi Folks,
I've been delaying this post so I could get some miles on, got about 250 now, so I didn't tempt fate. It's fixed, there, I said it, aaarrgghh.
OK, Norge ECU wasn't fixed, but the "fixer will provide a new ECU at around £60 more, as I've already paid to have it fixed it's a no brainer.
 I knew the TPS from the Ducati and the Norge were different, one adjusted manually, one electronically, but had no idea what controlled them other than the ecu. I had my son download the EEPROM from the Guzzi ecu, then I fitted the Ducati 5AM ECU again and had him write over the Ducati EEPROM with the Guzzi one. Fixed, the TPS is now steady.
The bike is running better than it ever has.
I'm pretty sure my original problem was caused by a faulty tilt switch, which I replaced, along with many other components.
So, many thanks people, I hope this will help another poor soul not to have this journey!
Alan.

Did I miss something in this thread? you were chasing a TPS issue with a Ducati ECU fitted to a Guzzi? Is this correct? From what I think I know you can't just use a Ducati ECU even though they may be both the same basic ecu and load a Guzzi .bin file and expect it to work. As you've discovered there are EEprom differences and also pinout differences to a Ducati.
Where did you mention fitting a Ducati ecu?

Phil 

[Bison]

Sorry about any confusion, I have a separate thread going which I posted to yesterday.
The Ducati ECU is a 5AM, same as the Guzzi, the important thing is the hardware numbers are the same, in this case HW610. What I didn't know was the EEPROM content was also different, and that is why the TPS wasn't being controlled. I downloaded the Guzzi map, and also the EEPROM content, and everything now works beautifully. All ECU's are bought into the factory, the manufacturer downloads it's requirements, some requirements are different to other. In this case the clue was the ducati TPS is manually adjusted, the Guzzi one electronically
The time line as I said I think for both posts was. 1, starter button not working, 2 rigged bypass of starter button, 3 bike started cutting out on closed throttle 4 blew ECU 5 fitted Ducati ecu, starter button now works, 6 bike still cutting out 7 replace tilt switch, bike doesn't cut out 8 ducati ecu does not control TPS, 9 overwrite ducati EEPROM with Guzzi EEPROM, bike runs faultlessly

[Bison]

I should also add I am the original analogue man in a digital world.
The Ducati ECU fitment was stated in the post about the starter switch not working, I didn't guess that the EEPROM difference was causing the ECU problem until much later. I uploaded the Guzzi map and thought that was all I could do.
I just thought i would post my findings , it might help someone else in my position. Looking through old posts many times people don't post their solution or findings, so it renders the whole exercise useless pretty much. I should not have assumed people trying to help with the TPS problem would have known about my other post. My apology.
Alan.

[RinkRat II]

   Thanks Alan,
     It's always nice to hear of the solution to an extended problem when most if not all the advice you get doesn't completely solve the issue.
    Now we're all a little smarter, never too old to learn, just have to remember what I learned

      Paul B

[lucky phil]

Sorry about any confusion, I have a separate thread going which I posted to yesterday.
The Ducati ECU is a 5AM, same as the Guzzi, the important thing is the hardware numbers are the same, in this case HW610. What I didn't know was the EEPROM content was also different, and that is why the TPS wasn't being controlled. I downloaded the Guzzi map, and also the EEPROM content, and everything now works beautifully. All ECU's are bought into the factory, the manufacturer downloads it's requirements, some requirements are different to other. In this case the clue was the ducati TPS is manually adjusted, the Guzzi one electronically
The time line as I said I think for both posts was. 1, starter button not working, 2 rigged bypass of starter button, 3 bike started cutting out on closed throttle 4 blew ECU 5 fitted Ducati ecu, starter button now works, 6 bike still cutting out 7 replace tilt switch, bike doesn't cut out 8 ducati ecu does not control TPS, 9 overwrite ducati EEPROM with Guzzi EEPROM, bike runs faultlessly

It's more than that. One is a linier TPS and the other a "non linier" TPS. Two different outputs to degrees of rotation.

Phil

[Kiwi_Roy]

IN 60+ YEARS AS A SPARKY I HAVE NEVER SEEN SUCH CONFUSED WIRING I WOULD DUMP IT AT YOUR DEAER AND TELL THEM TO FIX IT, EITHER THAT OR HOT WIRE A START BUTTON BETWEEN BATTERY + AND THE SPADE CONNECTOR,
There is something Guzzi aren't telling us about this wiring, I don't have a clue what it is.