Author Topic: V7 III map - Guzzidiag - Tunerpro  (Read 1292 times)

Offline chrisfer

  • New Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: France
V7 III map - Guzzidiag - Tunerpro
« on: October 17, 2020, 07:35:18 AM »
Hello,
Here is a subject to discuss on the mapping of the V7 III. Sorry for the rapid translation...  :embarrassed:

The objective of a (reprogramming, remapping) modification of the mapping is to obtain a more efficient engine operation in normal use: more flexible, a better response, improve revving, engine behavior. But, unless you change more within limits (ignition), it doesn't really change the power which increases just when you remove the catalyst.

With the standards to maintain the discharges, the regulation action of the probes must intervene from the first seconds, from a cold engine and for a complete cycle.

When reprogramming we no longer worry about rejects, we often even start by installing an uncatalyzed pot.
We no longer want regulation at 14.7, we remove this regulation, and, by measurements, we predetermine a map giving a mixture according to the "zones" of use around and below 13.5 for more optimal engine operation with less heater (especially for the exhaust valve).
A "mapping" only changes data, not the way in which corrections and calculations will be made, this would require more complete access to the software.

Here is a document which explains the simplified operation of IAWMIUG3 of V7 III: https://www.guzzitek.org/documents/injection/ECU_MIU-G3_Training.pdf

To access the mapping data you can use Guzzidiag, Reader and Writer in fact, with the appropriate cables, the Reader allows you to take the initial data, everything is then quite reversible and you can return to the origin.
https://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/
Then with TunerPro you can view and modify these data
Warning The V7 III "XDF" v1.05 and before use bad table names, a new one will arrive soon on the Guzzidiag site.
Here is an XDF for V7 III : https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuqxioVGI9b-iY0rVXXr4gQc_jYkGg?e=oXaeTY

Here is the original mapping data of V7 III (2018): https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuqxioVGI9b-hvg3tVpX8dBwkfS47A?e=roSIkQ
Here a modified mapping data of V7 III : https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuqxioVGI9b-iaIaMD_xpGdlon5zrw?e=2xwPTH  Checksum Writer : 7A7
AFR is from 13 to 12 (full throttle)

I started, in order not to tune too much, stupidly enrich, I bought a reactive and fairly precise broadband probe (Bosch LSU 4.9) with its control module (PLX) which transmits the measurement in bluetooth to the smartphone, I rather prefer one more display: https://www.plxdevices.com/SM-AFR-Gen4-Wideband-AFR-with-MultiGauge-Link-p/897346002870.htm
The new probe is simply installed in place of one of the original probes (deactivated by TunerPro), on the two side.
I noticed that in many areas the original operation is really very poor, AFR around 15, at certain gas openings, I expected it, but not necessarily only at low openings and at low speed. This explains well the on / off side at the start of throttle opening and also the sporadic pinging I had at mid-throttle opening.

Intervening precisely on the mapping is not easy, I had to embark a small computer with Guzzidiag especially to precisely control the gas openings to be retouched.
With an AFR ratio around 13 at low speed, low aperture, the response to the opening, the revving, the behavior, the approval in general is really very good.
At higher aperture or high speed, I even noticed and / or set an AFR around 12.
With the corrections, consumption remains very reasonable, for an air-cooled 750cm3, less than 0.5l/100km additional, despite the consequent enhancements to certain openings and speeds used frequently.
Guzzi announces 5.5l/100 in the normalized cycle, they really have to adjust and then specifically apply the engine so that the engine passes the pollution control cycle ...

Thank you for sharing your knowledge, experiments and questions relating to engine management on this subject. :wink:
« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 01:00:47 AM by chrisfer »
2018 V7 III Carbon

Offline Zoom Zoom

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 11546
  • Northeast Ohio
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2020, 07:42:03 AM »
Have you considered installing a Beetle map? I can say it's fantastic.

edit: Mark has put time and effort into creating his maps for various Guzzi's and his map for a V7III is no exception. The work has already been done.

John Henry
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 07:47:34 AM by Zoom Zoom »
A wide, unfettered road ahead,
and the flying motor singing.
Samuel C. Lancaster 1921

Bert Remington

  • Guest
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2020, 11:25:20 AM »
chrisfer -- thanks for the description of your work.

As I recall, chrisfer was having a severe pinging problem.  His solution was to put the ECU in Alpha-N mode (ie ignore the HEGOs) and run a richer than 14.7 stoichiometric AFR to cool the exhaust valves specifically and the engine in general with an affordable increase in fuel use. He doesn't say but I expect he was using a "road" dynamometer. :smiley:

Like Beetle's map, this is an impressive effort.  And I'm grateful for his sharing it.

s1120 -- chrisfer has described the tool and process needed for your "tune my 02 california stone, and other car projects,"  A critical part of chrisfer's process was a specific goal: eliminate pinging.  What is your goal?

Offline chrisfer

  • New Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: France
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2020, 11:58:10 AM »
As I recall, chrisfer was having a severe pinging problem.  His solution was to put the ECU in Alpha-N mode (ie ignore the HEGOs) and run a richer than 14.7 stoichiometric AFR to cool the exhaust valves specifically and the engine in general with an affordable increase in fuel use. He doesn't say but I expect he was using a "road" dynamometer. :smiley:
Yes, not really severe pinging, but some pingings at mid aperture, after cruising, persistent with "beetle map".
Yes I do my tests on the road.
With the sensor I could see that the pinging area was also poor, near 15 AFR, I have adjust this area to 13 AFR.  :thumb:
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 12:05:11 PM by chrisfer »
2018 V7 III Carbon

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2020, 11:58:10 AM »

Offline chrisfer

  • New Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: France
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2020, 04:04:39 AM »
Guzzidiag allows access to interesting parameters to adjust the mapping:

- The opening throttle, essential to know the measured area, to correct. You have to be careful because the engine is running or stopped the values ​​are not the same, and at the start of the opening there is a lot of point and you need precision if you want smooth operation.
- The revolutions / minutes, essential to know the measured zone, to correct.
- Atmospheric pressure, it is measured and memorized before starting, ie if you change altitude without switching off the engine.
- The absolute pressure, it is necessary to estimate the air mass, no map access at this time.
- The air temperature, it is used to correct the mixture, normally finely. It is precise at the start of the ignition, but it quickly takes almost 10 C more, engine running or not, the probe is not well ventilated in its case, 10 C is not a few percent correction only but it is a source of little imprecision.
- The cylinder head temperature, it is intended to enrich when cold, and impoverish a little when hot.
- The advance to ignition planned is that of the mapping.
- The actual ignition advance is the corrected advance value taking into account corrections.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 12:26:06 AM by chrisfer »
2018 V7 III Carbon

Offline chrisfer

  • New Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: France
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2020, 04:09:57 AM »
With Tunerpro you can quickly compare the visual or value difference between the origin and the modifications:
The V7 III "XDF" v1.05 and before are Wrong, a new one will arrive on the Guzzidiag site.
Here is an XDF for V7 III : https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuqxioVGI9b-iY0rVXXr4gQc_jYkGg?e=oXaeTY


Here is the original mapping data of V7 III (2018): https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuqxioVGI9b-hvg3tVpX8dBwkfS47A?e=roSIkQ
Here a modified mapping data of V7 III : https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuqxioVGI9b-iY0fblWuY4P5wXvZRA?e=4B5cTM
I obtained this data from a large number of road tests with a measurement probe.

AFR is 13,2 for cruising and ~12 near full throttle.
 
We can perfectly go back to the original data.

There you go, if you have any comments, corrections or questions, don't hesitate.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 12:27:54 AM by chrisfer »
2018 V7 III Carbon

Offline usedtobefast

  • Guzzi Mentor
  • ****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 669
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2020, 11:17:40 AM »

This table is distorted by its two measurements, the altitude which is only measured at the time of starting, if you climb a pass no modification is taken into account.


How do you know the altitude isn't checked at certain time periods vs. just at time of starting? 

This seems to totally go against one of the main benefits of a fuel injection system ... example: you start your ride at 2000 ft above sea level, and go up to 8000 ft and the bike still runs great (theoretically).  If it still has fueling of 2000 ft then sounds like a dumb carb.   :grin:

2017 V7 iii Racer
2017 Griso
2016 Stornello
2000 Red Quota
Want a black/green 1000S big valve :)

Offline chrisfer

  • New Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: France
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2020, 12:47:38 PM »
How do you know the altitude isn't checked at certain time periods vs. just at time of starting? 

This seems to totally go against one of the main benefits of a fuel injection system ... example: you start your ride at 2000 ft above sea level, and go up to 8000 ft and the bike still runs great (theoretically).  If it still has fueling of 2000 ft then sounds like a dumb carb.   :grin:
There is only one absolute pressure sensor, for altitude and for the air mass...
See here, a document which explains the simplified operation of IAWMIUG3 of V7 III: https://www.guzzitek.org/documents/injection/ECU_MIU-G3_Training.pdf
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 12:49:18 PM by chrisfer »
2018 V7 III Carbon

Bert Remington

  • Guest
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2020, 01:38:27 PM »
The history of the MIU G3 leads me to believe it has limited processing power -- probably 16-bit.  And sensors rarely provide the direct measurement needed -- you have to convert the physical sensor signal into a useful number for an equation in the presence of noise, hysteresis, and failure.  So the processor may take an initial reading at Ignition On and then use table lookup for the deltas to calculate the real-time manifold air pressure (ie air mass).

My question is why does the right cylinder ignition coil have three primary wires and the left have the usual two?

BTW many V7 III riders have observed a hiss when opening the gas cap for refueling.  Some riders think it leads to lean conditions.  I removed the spring shown below.  No more hiss.  No gas smell.  No changes to evaporation canister plumbing.


« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 01:48:29 PM by Bert Remington »

Offline chrisfer

  • New Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: France
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2020, 03:38:57 AM »
My question is why does the right cylinder ignition coil have three primary wires and the left have the usual two?
I think for the cost, one electronic driver instead of two.
BTW many V7 III riders have observed a hiss when opening the gas cap for refueling.
I have change the evap system.
2018 V7 III Carbon

Offline organfixsing

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • *
  • Posts: 163
  • Location: ROMA Queensland Australia
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2020, 06:41:45 AM »
Re Burts question  about the three lead ignition coil. I believe that the MIUG3 was developed by/for Piaggio for their line of single cylinder scooters.
To run twin cylinders off the same ECU, the second cylinder is catered for by a low current pin, Pin 8 on the ECU. The single cylinder coil connection is connected to a high current pin Pin 1 on the ECU which would normally used for a single cylinder scooter.

Cheers

Brian
If you remove the wings of a fly, does that make it a walk?

Bert Remington

  • Guest
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2020, 12:35:45 PM »
Got it.  The MIU G3 has only one high-current ignition coil driver so the second high current ignition coil driver is in the right hand coil.  Thanks.

Offline Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 29583
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2020, 12:57:37 PM »
Interesting effort and discussion.

I'm not fully equipped to take it all in as I have not played with many maps as I tend to run stock or close to stock.

I even have the OEM maps on both our V7s right now, though I am getting closer each day to considering a Beetle one for the MK I.

However let me take a stab at this:

How do you know the altitude isn't checked at certain time periods vs. just at time of starting? 

This seems to totally go against one of the main benefits of a fuel injection system ... example: you start your ride at 2000 ft above sea level, and go up to 8000 ft and the bike still runs great (theoretically).  If it still has fueling of 2000 ft then sounds like a dumb carb.   :grin:

It's not uncommon to find a system like this in the powersports world. It's a little basic arguably but it still has a number of compensating factors that make it less "dumb" than most carbs.

First off, no matter how lean a carb is set, it's probably never set as lean as the stock setup on an EFI bike, never mind an EFI bike with a closed-loop system.

Editing errors out
As such, even if we changed nothing, the leaner running EFI bike at 2k altitude would not run as pig-rich as a non-CV carb at 8k altitude. It might run a little on the rich side, definitely richer than it would at sea-level (assuming you didn't shut it off and get gas or something), but not as rich as an adjusted carb, so you're already at an advantage.


Now, add to that the fact that the fuel map uses actual manifold pressure and closed-loop feedback from the O2's and you have an ECM that is capable of compensating a great deal for altitude even if it hasn't reset the base ambient pressure input since last startup. And, well unless you're running a race at Pike's peak or something you're gonna shut it off at altitude, or come back down right?

Actually I'd be a little more worried about starting it at altitude and coming back down and running too lean, but again the O2 sensors should have something to say about that (if you haven't disabled them, and if you have well, you probably know it's a good idea to cycle the ignition after coming "down a mountain").
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 02:06:21 PM by Kev m »
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Bert Remington

  • Guest
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2020, 01:39:54 PM »
chrisfer's measurement of atmospheric pressure at Ignition On does not conflict with real-time manifold air pressure measurement.

The same pressure sensor, built into the ECU/throttle body assembly, is used.

I believe the reason is related to ECU calculating speed which might be 16-bit but I would not be surprised if 8-bit based.

The pressure sensor provides some physical signal, maybe a voltage or maybe a frequency (eg, capacitive MAPs).  This signal must be converted into an absolute number that can be used in the Alpha-N algorithm.  This conversion takes calculation time, plenty of which is available before the engine is running and in short supply at 8K rpm.

So a common technique is to calculate the initial absolute number from the initial sensor signal ONCE before the engine is running.

Then while the engine is running, the difference between the initial sensor signal and the real-time sensor signal is used (often in a lookup table) to modify the initial absolute number originally calculated before the engine was running.  Calculating this delta number would take less time than re-calculating an absolute number every engine revolution (or whatever rate the ECU uses).

Corrections and additions welcome.

Offline Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 29583
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2020, 02:04:37 PM »
chrisfer's measurement of atmospheric pressure at Ignition On does not conflict with real-time manifold air pressure measurement.

The same pressure sensor, built into the ECU/throttle body assembly, is used.

I believe the reason is related to ECU calculating speed which might be 16-bit but I would not be surprised if 8-bit based.

The pressure sensor provides some physical signal, maybe a voltage or maybe a frequency (eg, capacitive MAPs).  This signal must be converted into an absolute number that can be used in the Alpha-N algorithm.  This conversion takes calculation time, plenty of which is available before the engine is running and in short supply at 8K rpm.

So a common technique is to calculate the initial absolute number from the initial sensor signal ONCE before the engine is running.

Then while the engine is running, the difference between the initial sensor signal and the real-time sensor signal is used (often in a lookup table) to modify the initial absolute number originally calculated before the engine was running.  Calculating this delta number would take less time than re-calculating an absolute number every engine revolution (or whatever rate the ECU uses).

Corrections and additions welcome.


Thanks for that explanation.

I read that it checked and stored the ambient pressure and that it used the manifold pressure once underway.

I didn't connect the dots in how it was comparing the two to adjust for changes in the first reading.

I mean I get the basics of a speed-density system (or so I think) so pressure us obviously a huge part of it.

So that said it's fully compensating for altitude (density) regardless of ignition cycle.

Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline chrisfer

  • New Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: France
Re: V7 III map - Guzzidiag - Tunerpro
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2021, 11:43:56 AM »
Updating.

The V7 III "XDF" v1.05 and before use bad table names, a new one will arrive soon on the Guzzidiag site.

Here is an XDF for V7 III : https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuqxioVGI9b-iY0rVXXr4gQc_jYkGg?e=oXaeTY


Here is the original mapping data of V7 III (2018): https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuqxioVGI9b-hvg3tVpX8dBwkfS47A?e=roSIkQ
Here a modified mapping data of V7 III : https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuqxioVGI9b-idczv3_B_ANJ9V_pwA?e=uF1IUf Checksum Writer : 3271 AFR is from 13.2 to 12.2 (full throttle).
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 11:55:10 AM by chrisfer »
2018 V7 III Carbon

Offline MiGomes

  • New Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2021, 06:17:32 AM »
Yes, not really severe pinging, but some pingings at mid aperture, after cruising, persistent with "beetle map".
Yes I do my tests on the road.
With the sensor I could see that the pinging area was also poor, near 15 AFR, I have adjust this area to 13 AFR.  :thumb:

 I have the same problem on a 2018 V7 III "pingings at mid aperture, after cruising". More frequent as the ambient temperature rises.

 Any simple way to solve this?

Offline chrisfer

  • New Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: France
Re: V7 III mapping
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2021, 07:21:46 AM »
I have the same problem on a 2018 V7 III "pingings at mid aperture, after cruising". More frequent as the ambient temperature rises.
 Any simple way to solve this?
You can try my "modified mapping", completly solve this issue and have a smoother operation.
And it's reversible.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 07:30:45 AM by chrisfer »
2018 V7 III Carbon

 

20 Ounce Stainless Steel Double Insulated Tumbler with donation credit
Buy a quality tumbler and support the forum at the same time!
Better than a YETI! BPA and Lead free.
Advertise Here