Rattle Noise Revisited. Still Need Some Help!

[Tom H]

For those that want to read the original post: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=107061.0

I still have the noise. Sorta sounds like valves banging (NOT happily clicking), exhaust leak, nasty enough to just about give up on this engine project and go back to my Ambo engine.  I have tried many things. I'm hoping someone has a fresh look on this.

What it is: Ambo frame with a 1000cc SP/G5 engine. VHB30 with 40 slides (have tried 60's) 5 speed trans and rear drive from an Eldo.

Symptoms again: Sounds PERFECT until about 70mph 5th gear and IIRR 4000 RPM. About 65 MPH it sounds pretty good. Below 65 it sounds PERFECT and runs pretty strong. Now....If I float/ ever so slightly get off the gas at 70mph on flat ground or VERY slightly uphill, good deity!!! It's PERFECT. Touch the gas and noise is back. ALSO....The noise will go away if I'm holding the same throttle and speed but going down a VERY slight hill. Still holding throttle and speed but back to a flat or VERY slight uphill, noise is back.

Let's see here what I have tried:

For you guys pushing the timing chain tensioner, I did install a Valtec style tensioner. Did nothing for the noise, but did gain a cool  blower belt sound.

Changed heads from the roundfin Tonti to roundfin Loop to eliminate any issue with the heads. I did open up the pushrod tunnel and am running Tonti 1000 head gaskets.

Tried 2 sets of headers with both style heads thinking one set may not be sealing right.

Tried the Tonti dual point distributor with Dyna III and a pair of Bosch Blue 3ohm coils. Have since gone back to my Loop single point since the Dyna really didn't make a difference and the wiring/coil setup was a mess.

Tried various timing settings and advance springs with the dual point. The ONLY time that I could get the noise to a barely hear it was setting the static at 0deg. ANY higher, more noise. But at 0deg, performance was lack luster.

Adjusted valves  to .008" for both, book is IIRR .0085" for both. Tried .007", .006" for both. .005" and .007" as well as .006" and .008".


I would like to elaborate on the timing, maybe the key?:
With both distributors set at 0deg., the noise is just about gone. But performance is not there especially above 65mph. City is OK, not great. Might as well ride my Eldo. At 2deg. per book, performance is better, noise is worse. Bump it up to Eldo 5deg. and more performance city and freeway, but the noise is VERY nasty at 70mph.

Another thing with the timing. At least with the dual point, but I think both. The more timing I put in, the more the RPMs came up at idle and maybe, maybe even felt a bit smoother??? Let's say your timing a '60's or '70's V8 engine by ear. Move the dist. until it sounds right. The RPMs come up and then fall off. Back the dist. off a bit until the RPMs are back up and you should be about right.
With this in mind, I went for a test on the freeway. Went about 4 miles and pulled over. Adjusted the dist. by ear and headed off. Back on freeway and the SAME NOISE WAS NOW HORRENDOUS!!! Had to get off at the next exit and back off the timing to a random, but close to where I think 0deg would be just to get home. Turned dist. back to where I had it and that perfect idle was about 25or 30deg. advanced at idle.
BTW: I have re-verified the timing marks to be correct. When I installed the Valtec, I made sure the marks on the sprockets lined up and even made sure I was at TDC and verified my timing marks as well.

That about all I have for what I have done. Whatever the noise is seems to be related to the timing advance. Again......city street speeds it sounds fine. I don't remember the RPM, I would guess 3500 or less. I REALLY don't want to tear this engine down to the last nut and bolt and have to take the parts to a place that can accurately measure everything. I think the performance gain with this engine, even perfect would be a waste of money. I would rather cut my losses and get an 1100 of some sort for it even if I have to rewire the bike for a computer and FI. Or maybe just go back to my Ambo engine and use this as a city bike more than highway.

Any thoughts, questions, things to try??????

Thank you!!!!!!!!!
Tom

[moto]

It sounds a bit like pre-ignition caused by carbon build up. Since you have changed the heads it can't be there. But what about the tops of the pistons? Does the problem vary with the octane of the gas you use? With the outside temperature? With engine temperature? With engine load? All those variations would be characteristic of pre-ignition, as I understand it.

[RinkRat II]

    On your dual point vs single, same distributor or two different ones?

      Paul B 

[Tom H]

RinkRat: Tonti dual point. Loop single point.

Moto: Good points. So. Cal. summer or winter doesn't matter. Gas, premium least ethanol I can get. I have found different brads will cause a STANDARD ping here in the land of bad gas. The engine: I bought a low mile engine. Pulled it down to the last bolt. Cleaned and inspected sealed and rod bearings as best as I could. Again, it purrs like a kitten until I hit 65-70mph on the freeway.


Tom

[Tom H]

I wanted to add and get this off my chest:

Maybe I'm asking too much from the 1000 engine. I was kinda hoping that it would be better then my Eldo and maybe close to my EVT on the highway going about 70-80mph.

Reason: I was heading from Yuma Az to San Diego, Ca. on my Eldo. Had a very nasty headwind, well maybe just off to the side. I'm on a two lane road going my direction. I'm in the right lane. Every time a large vehicle would pass me on the left, I almost hit them when the wind was taken off me. I could not hold speed in 5th, had to drop to 4th and 60mph to keep the Eldo from pinging due to the air temp and wind. Bloddy Yugo's were passing me. little old laddies in the Sunday driver were giving me the finger and telling me to get a horse

I want a Loop to go where I want at 70-75mph. I thought a 1000 would do it?????

Yes......I could run my EVT. I love the engine, can't stand the top heavy frame and poor tuning radius. Dropped the SOB twice because of the piss poor turning radius. Needed help picking it up and the helper said this is one heavy SOB. I can run circles inside it on any of my other bikes. Heck, my HD would be the long distance bike if I baggered it. 1600cc and ready to go at speed. But, I'm not really a HD guy.

Tom

[berniebee]

Two things point to ping.
1: You can eliminate the noise with retarded timing.
2: The noise disappears when you go from load to less load on the engine.

A lean mixture can contribute to ping.
A relatively easy thing to do: raise the needles a notch, then two notches and see if it affects the noise.
I would also make sure that all the jets are clean. Fuel filter partially blocked?

A wrong heat range spark plug can also cause ping.

[Tom H]

Berniebee: I need to go over my notes to see where I'm at. I used Guzziology for my carb setup and may be a bit richer. I know I'm running BP (or R) 6ES and think I tried BP7ES as well as Iridium BPR6ES. May have even tried the Bosch Iridium.

I do want to define my version of Ping. Ping sounds to me like a Ting, thin glass breaking, glass popcorn, a high pitch sound. My EVT did it on hot days passing , fixed with the fuel trim. My HD does it as well, hot and passing. My Eldo in the example did it, but was so bad that it sounded like it could seize at any moment. Sounded like little itty bitty bits of metal dancing in the cylinder.

This sound is more like the sound happy valves make, but when really mad. Instead of the nice tick, tick. It's more like a hammer is beating on the valve.

I would say by this, that it's mechanical??? But WHY would the noise stop when load is removed but RPM and throttle position is the same???? Now we're back to ignition and/or fueling???

Let me listen to what others have to say.

Maybe I have a bum set of carbs?? I might be able to borrow a set to try??

Thanks again so far!!!!!!!!
Tom

[Vagrant]

Did you ever run a proper compression test. It sounds like the distributor has been out a few times. I know on a Chevy 8 cylinder you canbe off one tooth and have it run pretty good but only in a tiny timing window.

[s1120]

OK, so I didnt go back to read the first post, but Ill just jump in with a few things here..  What are you running for air cleaner/cleaners? Could your tuning be fine, but at speed the airflow changes, and the area the cleaner/s pick up,the air become either a real high, or low pressure area? Also even though there are changes with different tunings, could you be chasing a issue that really lives in the trans/rear drive/Ujoint area? Strange noises can travel weird places sometimes.

[chuck peterson]

I just found a double walled header rusted on the inside..rattlerattl erattle

Rocker bushings…

How about a pushrod that’s come undone? The pressfit on the ends has come apartment?

[Tom H]

To start with, I am open to all ideas.

Vagrant: Interesting. I have always TDC the correct cylinder and orientated the distributor body the way it should be and have the points and or rotor aligned properly. But...Lets say you have a dist. that can rotate 360 deg.. I would "think" that you could just install it where ever you wanted and rotate the body to align the dist. body/cap to the rotor. This sounds too simple, so I'm sure I'm wrong?? Compression is about 150psi IIRR. Never did a leak down on it.

S1120: K&N pods in the standard location for a Loop. Same place as my Eldo and when the Ambo had the 750. A noise from another place than the engine?? I had thought about that, but sort of discounted that idea. I can fully understand that, lets say a bearing is bad, it shows up mainly under load. But then I'm asking why it only shows up at a speed/RPM instead of anytime the bearing is under load? Also I then through in the fact that the noise changes with timing. Timing adding more load????

Chuck, Zoom: Something loose rattling at only certain RPM, been there. I "think" I have the rattles from vibration addressed. Push rods????? Especially a bad one???? Again I have to ask myself why it only shows up under load at a speed/rpm and can be made louder or quieter with ignition timing?? I'm thinking it would show up at lets say 20mph 2nd gear as well????

Again, I'm open to all suggestions and may also want to know the reasoning behind the suggestion so I understand why it could be that. I will also have another look at many of them, maybe I missed something?

Thank you all again so far!!!
Tom

[Don G]

Are the cam followers and pushrods and rocker arms all from the G5 engine? No loop frame valvetrain parts got into the mix by any chance?  DonG

[moto]

As a followup to my earlier comment, this sounds like either detonation or pre-ignition to me. They both have similar symptoms including manifesting themselves under load and/or heat.

You should try to determine whether you have one or the other of these first, and only then proceed.

You already describe the classic symptoms, above.

You can also use a small metallic probe in each cylinder to get more information. These are called spark plugs, and show two diagnostic symptoms when detonation/pre-ignition is severe and sustained. First, small balls of aluminum may be seen adhering to the end of the plug. (They come from your piston usually.) Second, the electrode of the plug may melt or begin to melt away prematurely.

You can also use different plugs to make your diagnosis. Try a hotter plug and see if the problem goes away. (If it does, your problem is pre-ignition, with the spark plug electrode serving as the trigger.) Try two steps hotter if the first didn't make a difference. Spark plugs are cheap diagnostic tools.

Try a higher octane fuel for diagnosis. This would be racing or aviation fuel in your case, I think, since I recall you said you are already using the highest pump octane you can find. (If the problem goes away, it was detonation, not pre-ignition.)

Once you have tried these diagnostic steps you may be ready to conclude you have one of these two problems. Then you can begin figuring out how to solve them.

If you are shaky on the difference between pre-ignition and detonation you should do some reading. On the internet there is a lot of Bubba-quality material posted ( ). Here is a decidedly non-Bubba source, by Kevin Cameron in Cycle World: https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bikes/confusing-detonation-and-preignition/.

Hope this helps. Divide and conquer! Divide your problem between these two similar possibilities and all the rest. Once you have made the division, conquer.

Moto

[Tom H]

I went through my notes today. Seems I have always been chasing a rattle, Tried making sure everything was tight, Even went so far as to pull the forks to see if there was an issue that would cause a rattle. I also have always been chasing a performance issue from 65mph and up.

I had wanted to know how much throttle I was at per speed. Tommaselli Daytona? 2C throttle. I put a strip of masking tape on the metal body next to the rubber grip. Then on the rubber grip I put just a little piece. I fully closed the throttle and put a mark on the grip and the body. Then went WO and another mark on the body. Now I have off and full. Then made marks for 1/4, 1/2, 3/4. This seems to help me know if a change in tuning has made a difference in performance. Normally I can be at 1/4 throttle or a very small touch more and run about 70mph on a reasonably flat freeway.

Performance, maybe I expecting too much. I thought it would be MUCH better than my 850, maybe even close to my 1100 EVT FI on the freeway. What I have is about the same as my 850. I actually think the 850 is better at speed.

BTW: both Ambo and Eldo are dressed the same. National Cycle Police style shield, generic trunk and bags.

Tuning: When I put it together.....130 main, 55 pilot, 60 slides, #9 needle 2nd notch and short tip air mix screws.

To get it to run like I think it should. With the original 60 slide I have gone as large as 140 mains (pretty good on the city streets but sluggish at speed) to 125 mains (crisper but not as powerful on city, but under powered on the freeway).

I now have a 40 slide, #9 needle 2nd notch (tried raising 1 notch, bike didn't like it at all), 130 main and 55 pilot. Same air mix screws. This IIRR is what Guzziology says to go with.

Moto: I have tried to eliminate plug caps and wires. 2 sets of wires and 2 NGK plug caps (LB01 and LB05). I have been running BPR6ES plugs with LB01 caps. I will try BP6ES with the LB01 caps. I have a set of BP5ES plugs, will try them as well if my BP6ES don't help. I did try a set of BPR7ES, made no difference in the noise as far as I could tell. I read up on the ignition issues.

Don G: The push rods S/B from a Tonti engine, they are different shape than my Loops. Rockers are definitely from a Tonti engine. Rocker blocks and lifters, I'm not sure. Both S/B from a Tonti since the lifters were installed in the engine when I bought it.

Again...Thank you all very much so far!!!
Tom

[Tom H]

rodrkyll: Very nice to see you back here!  Pushrods??? I have heard of the tips being loose problem. I don't understand how a noise from the pushrods would be different depending on timing advance, but it only take an hour or less to pull and check them.
I put the engine together with a Loop front cover with NO inside ribs. Cut the tach drive off the cam and used the crank adapter to run the Fields Alt conversion. I had been running the stock manual tensioiner. When I converted to a Valtec tensioner, I looked at the inside of the cover for any wear marks, none found.
As mentioned, the only time it will make the noise with anything over 0deg timing is around 4000 RPM. In the garage, there is too much noise from running 4000 to know if it makes the noise while parked. I did try the random advance by ear TEST to see what would happen. The noise showed up well below 4000. I was starting up from a traffic light and it would make the same noise. Backed the timing to ABOUT 0deg, noise went away at low RPM. Just like it has always been.

I have many times considered that I may have put the TDC mark for each cylinder wrong on the Loop flywheel. I have rechecked this many times. When I set up the flywheel TDC, I just had the crank in the block. Rotated the crank until #2 looked fully up/centered in the cylinder hole. Then slid the flywheel in place using the stamped arrow and the nub/marker on the block. With my eleball of the crank position, the flyweell was about 1/8 of a bolt hole off from the bolt going in.  Then I added marks on the flywheel to see them through the timing hole on the trans bell housing. I have verified them many times being TDC with a straw in the spark plug hole.

Thank you all again so far!!!
Tom

[Tom H]

Another thing related to the push rods. With the Tonti heads, I did take them apart thinking maybe a weak valve spring. Bought a valve spring pressure gauge. All springs were within the spec in the manual. As mentioned, I am now running Loop heads just in case there was a porous casting or the like in the Tonti heads.

About the noise being at about 70mph and 4000rpm. IIRR I have had the noise at lower speeds, but high rpm. There were two stop signs close together, normally get in third. Decided just to hold in second with high rpm. It was hard to tell for sure because the overall high rev noise, but I think I heard the rattle. The rattle is just easiest to hear on the freeway at about 70.

Tom

[Tom H]

All push rods are straight and the correct style. Ends felt smooth and free with a slight bit of oil stiction in the lifter and the rocker ball. I tried pulling and wiggling the ends on all of them. None moved. Adjusted valves to .007 & .007. NGK BP 5 ES and see what happens??

Tom

[moto]

All push rods are straight and the correct style. Ends felt smooth and free with a slight bit of oil stiction in the lifter and the rocker ball. I tried pulling and wiggling the ends on all of them. None moved. Adjusted valves to .007 & .007. NGK BP 5 ES and see what happens??

Tom

Oops. Looking back, I see that I recommended going to a hotter plug when I meant going to a colder plug. So that would be NGK BP 7 ES or even 8.

The idea is that a colder plug has an electrode that runs cooler in the engine environment and is therefore less likely to pre-ignite the mixture. Going for the 8 would likely be even more definitive as a test.

But don't misunderstand this as a recommendation for a permanent change. Your bike should run well with the standard plug. This is just a way of determining whether pre ignition from the existing plug is causing your problem, along with something else that's likely wrong.

The best bet is to find evidence of pre-ignition or of detonation, if you can. That would allow you to concentrate on problems inside the combustion chamber. If you can't find such evidence using plugs or higher octane gas, I think your problem is outside of the combustion chamber.

Sorry for the slip-up.

Moto

[Tom H]

I have read the article listed. With my 850 from Yuma example, I had detonation (what I call ping). High air and engine temps, headwind causing lugging. Shifted from 5th to 4th removing the lugging and the detonation/ping went almost completely away.

I have a ride I like to take to test things. About 10 miles each way with about 6 miles being freeway. I'll run the 5 plug down there and then the 7 on the way back. See if either make a change.

 I do completely agree, I should be running a 6, so if I find a plug makes a change, I at least may have ruled out mechanical. On my 750 engine, I did find that "6"  Iridium plugs seemed to make it a bit peppier than standard plugs, that may also be a way to go.

Tom

[Tom H]

Well that was interesting.

With the 5 plugs the noise seemed to be less. Also the bike seemed peppier. Swapped to 7 plugs and the noise seems worse, comes in at lower speed, like just over 50mph and not as peppie. The route may have more ups and wind going one way, so I turned around and tried the first leg again with the 7 plugs. 7's seem the same on both legs.

The interesting part. With either plugs. On my tape throttle marks, 70mph is right about 1/4 in 5th on levelish roads. I wanted to see if any difference from 70-75mph. Hit about 1/2 throttle, let's give it some more. 3/4 throttle and the noise was gone or at least nearly gone. The 5 plugs seemed like it was peppier going from 70-75 then to 80, the 7's seemed to ....umm...labor more to get there.

Now I'm starting to think I have an issue with the carbs. Especially since the noise seems to clear up about 3/4 throttle. Maybe my low-midrange is is off??

Tom

[John Croucher]

I had a worn small end rod bushing that caused a rattle.  Only at scenting rpm and throttle opening. 

I chased the problem for a while.  Thinking it was a loose valve or exhaust.   One day a guy walked up to me at a gas stop and said "you have a worn rod bearing"  He was right. 

[ampm7]

Tom, were you coming up the hill on 8 near Ocotillo? That is a nasty spot for any bike let alone an old one. Just curious, is one cylinder a lot hotter than the other?

[Tom H]

ampm7: If your referring to my 850 from Yuma. It was from El Centro to the hills heading to S.D.. Once I hit the hill, the air cooled a bit and the wind was blocked a bit. Once past the twisties going up, the bike was back to normal.

Tom

[Tom H]

I decided to borrow a set of VHB30's that my shop said were perfect. While I was picking them up, he asked why I needed them. I told him that I didn't thing the air mix screw was adjusting correctly, like a clogged passage. He played with them and said one was fine, the other worked, but did not adjust to the turns out he likes.

I decided to install the loaner carbs there and he fine tuned the air mix. Jetting was 50 pilot, 130 main, 40 slide, #9 needle second notch. My original carbs were the same except 55 pilot. I was running BP5ES plugs.

I headed home and these carbs felt like they made the bike a bit peppier, maybe because of the 50 pilot. But alas, my noise issue was still there 

I decided to try 125 mains since my noise could be due to too rich. Ran ok, but down on power, no noticeable change in the noise. Switched back to 130 mains.

I decided that carbs do not seem to solve my problem. So I will return the borrowed set and install my originals. But...

I'll give them a thorough cleaning. Soaked the bodies overnight in the old school gallon can of Gunk carb cleaner. Rinsed them and made sure all the passages were clear. Made sure I was installing 50 pilot and 130 mains. Now my carbs are set up just like the loaners.

Installed them and went for a test ride. The bike was sluggish, like a little down on power on city streets. Freeway at 70 it rolled along, but needed just a touch more throttle. Got home rather disgusted.

Grabbed a cold one and thought about why these were not working like the loaners. Everything is the same...Right??? Ummmm....

I forgot that I did check the float height. Both carbs were about 2.5mm to tall. So I adjusted the floats to 23.5mm per the book with the body orientated per the Dellorto guide. I figured that would make them work correctly.

Well that what I get for thinking

I measured the loaners. The were both about the same to tall. I measured them today, about 26.5mm. About 3mm to tall. This would make the engine run lean if I understand correctly. It runs much peppier with the floats at 26.5mm.

Now I have to open up the originals and readjust the floats to 26.5 and see if that makes them run as good as the loaners. If not it looks like I'll be buying the loaners. It still does not solve my noise issue, but at least it will pull like I think a 1000cc should.

Tom

[moto]

I decided to borrow a set of VHB30's that my shop said were perfect. While I was picking them up, he asked why I needed them....

With a set of perfect VHB 30s, you've got a shop near you that's pretty darned unusual. Have you asked the owner of the shop whether he can hear your sound, and what he thinks it might be? It's a lot easier to diagnose sounds when you can hear them yourself. I'd give that a try.

Moto

[Tom H]

Moto: Yes I have. At 2deg advance, the noise is easiest to hear at about 4000rpm in 5th gear. Freeway speeds. He's not conveniently located to a freeway. But.....

If I advance the timing FOR A TEST ONLY to about 20deg BTDC, it will make the noise starting from a stop sign. That is my next thing to do. I just hate to bug him.

rodekyll: I put the BP5ES pugs in as a test. The small end has been mentioned before. I do not have the correct tools or skill to ACCURATELY measure the clearance.  But.....I was told that all the bearings and such are good.

Float level has me a bit confused even though I read up on it. The float and float needle control if fuel enters the bowl. Now the fuel has to go through two tiny jets. If I understand, the float level keeps the ummm..chambers of the pilot and main at a certain level. Bit if the bike is running and has used up the fuel in the chambers. The fuel has to "SLOWLY" fill up the chambers. Hence the reason for the jets, to regulate fuel. If the bike has sat for a period, I can see the chambers fill up, but MAYBE not while the engine is running??????

FWIW: I by hand felt the small end. They felt great/perfect compared to the ones that I have been running for years in my Eldo. The 1000 has no slop that I can detect by hand. The shop I bought the engine from confirms they are good.

I am just about ready to give up. I do not want to tear this engine down to the nuts and bolts to take all the parts like crank and rods to a machine shop to measure them to just be told they are fine.

The mystery to me........ Why does TIMING make the noise better or worse! WHAT mechanical issue would be affected by timing. If I time to 0deg, it almost is gone, but I might as well have my 750 engine in it as far as performance!

Would the timing cause a small end to make noise or not???????????? Would floating the throttle or going down a very small hill without moving the throttle cause the small end to go from making a nasty noise to heaven sent quiet???????

Sorry if I ranted a bit. Thank you all again VERY MUCH for the ideas!!!
Tom

[moto]

Sometimes a very small piece of metal, a jagged shard, can cause preignition. Maybe a boogered up thread or some other slight flaw in the combustion chamber. Taking off the heads and taking them to a qualified specialist would be a lot less bother than disassembling the bottom end. Don't forget the piston tops themselves in this regard. I continue to think your problem is inside the combustion chamber. But I don't know.

Moto

[SED]

Apologies if this has been eliminated - I've not read the previous thread - but it seems like the rattle is speed related, not rpm, which suggests it could be in the drive shaft.  (edit: removed evidence that I've conflated two threads!)  So rattle in the drive shaft at 70mph influenced by engine loading or power?

[Tom H]

SED: It is more rpm than speed. I do understand your suggestion. I have thought could it be the trans, rear end, drive shaft related. I can fully understand why loading or unloading any of these would cause/change a noise. Rear end in my old truck is bad. On or off throttle, more speed or off and slowing down change the noise.

But...then I'm back to 2deg (2deg book, 1 deg doesn't help much, but does) or more, 1/4 throttle 70mph aprox 4000rpm and noisy. Change timing to 0deg, much quieter if not gone. I can also get it to make the noise in other gears and speeds, but always around 4000 and up rpm at 2deg or more. Then take a swing at advancing the timing and can make the noise leaving a stop sign, well may a bit more like 10mph and maybe 1500rpm.

Moto: I have tried the original set of Toni round fin heads as well as heads of a Loop Eldo with the push rod tunnel opened up.

I read a tuning book. Something that caught my attention was if a setup is too rich and causing ignition problems and noises, it can be masked/fixed by lowering the timing. Sounds like my problem. But, I have tried to lean it out and the noise doesn't go away.

Again, I'm listening and willing to try suggestions that I can do!!!
Tom

[Vagrant]

rodekyll might be onto something.
I bought a new 1990 Mille GT and when I did the first service for some reason I pulled the shaft out and there was a big, long metal corkscrew from the origional drilling of the shaft hole in there blocking the whole oil passage. On my 1972 850 Eldorado bought new I found signifigant wear on the shafts at 20,000 or so. The oils were not so good at the time so I turned them to 180 and the extra noise ceased.