Author Topic: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners  (Read 466519 times)

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2014, 05:21:18 AM »
Shawn,

The kkl adpter looks ok. The test that works, tests if the computer can communicate with the ftdi chip, the part behind that can't be tested that way.
Now the other part the 3 pin adapter, here is how it should be connected inside, you can measure yours to check.

Paul

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Offline leafman60

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #121 on: July 05, 2014, 06:18:09 AM »
Thank you, Pete, Mark, John and others.  I was on the right track but wasn't sure.   Now I understand.

You guys are providing a great help.

When I get this worked out, I plan to send a donation to the Guzzidiag site. 

Offline leafman60

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #122 on: July 05, 2014, 05:04:22 PM »
Well darn.  I went out today and hooked everything back up, followed the directions from Pete, Mark et al and, bam-bam-bam everything worked fine.  I loaded up one of the new maps sent to me by Pete, the computer said all was okay.  After loading the new map, my TPS was off so I reset it back to 4.6.  I even warmed the bike up and the idle was very nice so I didn't trim the CO.

I took the bike out for several miles, and sure 'nuff, I still have a huge problem between 2000 and 3000 rpm. The new map made very little difference. In any gear, at any speed, if I let the revs fall down into the 2000-3000 range or when I take off from a stop, any throttle roll-on in that rpm range causes severe missing and snatching of the engine.  You'd think you could stall the motor if the throttle was rolled-on hard.

If I back off the throttle and ease it up, the engine will make it to about 2900-3000 where everything smooths out and the motor pulls like a tractor.

The valves are adjusted properly and the throttle bodies are balanced with mercury sticks.

I'm at a loss here. This bike didn't act like this until it had about 15k miles on it.  I now have about 25k.

I guess, I can use TunerPro and go in to try and modify the map and see what happens.  I also wonder of I'm suffering from a crankshaft sensor issue or something else. I keep thinking something other than the fuel map could be the problem.

I had Ian at Riders Hill hook it up to his machine and look at it several months ago and he said he had no idea what the problem could be.  

Any suggestions?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 05:07:34 PM by leafman60 »

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #123 on: July 05, 2014, 05:32:53 PM »
David, you changed out the plug caps didn't you? To me this sounds very like an ignition break-down issue and it is very similar to the usual effects of having the spark jump to earth rathe than crossing the plug gap.

At idle the VE is very low so the path of least resistance to the spark is across the plug gap. As soon as the throttle is opened though it becomes much harder for the spark to jump so it will try and find another place to get to earth. Then, as the engine speed rises VE again drops off so once again the spark will occur in the combustion chamber. Opening the throttle wider once again increases VE so again the spark seeks an alternative earth path.

Look, this may not be relevant at all but first up I'd do a really close inspection of leaks, caps and plugs. Try sticking a strobe on the HT leads and taping it to the tank so you can watch to see if the spark is dropping out at the 'Jerky' points. To me this isn't sounding like a 'Mapping' issue per-se, its some sort of 'Mechanical/Electronic' issue.

Pete

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #123 on: July 05, 2014, 05:32:53 PM »

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #124 on: July 05, 2014, 06:18:04 PM »
Shawn,

The kkl adpter looks ok. The test that works, tests if the computer can communicate with the ftdi chip, the part behind that can't be tested that way.
Now the other part the 3 pin adapter, here is how it should be connected inside, you can measure yours to check.



Hi, Paul.

Thanks for the info.  I used my trusty meter to check continuity, and found all to be in order except pin 4.  That one doesn't seem to connect to anything.  Do you think that this is the source of the problem?

Edit:   By the way, my cable is one of those with both positive and negative alligator clips.

Cheers,
Shaun
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 06:20:54 PM by smdl »
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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #125 on: July 05, 2014, 06:30:45 PM »
Did you already convert the airbox back?  Not sure if it would have an effect, but seems worth considering.

Shaun
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Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #126 on: July 05, 2014, 06:38:32 PM »
Hi, Paul.

Thanks for the info.  I used my trusty meter to check continuity, and found all to be in order except pin 4.  That one doesn't seem to connect to anything.  Do you think that this is the source of the problem?

Edit:   By the way, my cable is one of those with both positive and negative alligator clips.

Cheers,
Shaun
Depends on the other side, the kkl I have has 4 and 5 connected, so there would not be a problem. 4 is chassis ground, 5 is signal ground. If inside the KKL, the 4 and 5 are not connected to each other make a bridge inside the connector between them.
Paul

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #127 on: July 05, 2014, 06:54:34 PM »
Depends on the other side, the kkl I have has 4 and 5 connected, so there would not be a problem. 4 is chassis ground, 5 is signal ground. If inside the KKL, the 4 and 5 are not connected to each other make a bridge inside the connector between them.

Good point.  Yes, 4 and 5 are bridged on the kkl cable.

Shaun
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Offline Waterbottle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #128 on: July 05, 2014, 09:03:39 PM »
CAUTION
If your pet parrot is squawking and annoying the piss out of you, DON'T accidentally connect the Pos red and Neg Black cables arse about face or the Smoke Will come out of the OBD2 cable chips.
 It's a good thing they are relatively cheap  ;D
I tried to catch the smoke so I could put it back in , but the wind was blowing and it got away on me  ::)
For my next trick......... A dedicated 2 pin keyed plug so old Ten Thumbs here can't do this again
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 09:05:53 PM by Waterbottle »
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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #129 on: July 05, 2014, 10:26:36 PM »
CAUTION
If your pet parrot is squawking and annoying the piss out of you, DON'T accidentally connect the Pos red and Neg Black cables arse about face or the Smoke Will come out of the OBD2 cable chips.
 It's a good thing they are relatively cheap  ;D
I tried to catch the smoke so I could put it back in , but the wind was blowing and it got away on me  ::)
For my next trick......... A dedicated 2 pin keyed plug so old Ten Thumbs here can't do this again

Ah, yes, the magic smoke!  I've seen it a few times myself, unfortunately.  Never with a parrot cheering section, though...

Well, good luck with your new cable.  I've just ordered a new set from Lonelec because I'm tired of fighting with these ones, and want to eliminate that variable.  I will be travelling for a while anyway, so the delay won't bother me -- they'll likely be waiting for me when I get back.

Cheers,
Shaun
'74 Eldorado Police
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'17 V7 III Stone
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Offline leafman60

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #130 on: July 05, 2014, 11:55:05 PM »
David, you changed out the plug caps didn't you? To me this sounds very like an ignition break-down issue and it is very similar to the usual effects of having the spark jump to earth rathe than crossing the plug gap.

At idle the VE is very low so the path of least resistance to the spark is across the plug gap. As soon as the throttle is opened though it becomes much harder for the spark to jump so it will try and find another place to get to earth. Then, as the engine speed rises VE again drops off so once again the spark will occur in the combustion chamber. Opening the throttle wider once again increases VE so again the spark seeks an alternative earth path.

Look, this may not be relevant at all but first up I'd do a really close inspection of leaks, caps and plugs. Try sticking a strobe on the HT leads and taping it to the tank so you can watch to see if the spark is dropping out at the 'Jerky' points. To me this isn't sounding like a 'Mapping' issue per-se, its some sort of 'Mechanical/Electronic' issue.

Pete


Yes, I had trouble with the stock plug caps and replaced them with the NGK caps along with properly fitting weather seals. I did a long pictorial of this operation.

Later on, I had a coil go out that stranded me and the coil was replaced. 

I'm going to trouble shoot the plug wires as suggested and see what I can determine. 

What makes me suspicious of something electrical is the fact that the motor did not originally behave this way.

Thanks for the help.

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #131 on: July 06, 2014, 12:46:43 AM »
I reckon you're on the right track.

Pete

Offline Xlratr

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #132 on: July 06, 2014, 02:54:04 AM »

Later on, I had a coil go out that stranded me and the coil was replaced. 


Did the bike start misbehaving soon after that? Was it replaced with an original coil?
Have the spark plugs ever been changed?
John

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Offline leafman60

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #133 on: July 06, 2014, 07:14:34 AM »
I had my current problem before the coil went bad.

My plugs are not new so perhaps I should try new plugs too.

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #134 on: July 06, 2014, 08:12:42 AM »
Ok, maybe guzzi made a mistake and switched colors on the 3 pin?
1 brown
2 black
3 blue

 3 pin connectors push in each other firm?
Paul

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Offline Xlratr

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #135 on: July 06, 2014, 08:17:53 AM »
It sounds obvious I know, but when something starts to go wrong on any vehicle of mine I always think about anything I might have changed just prior to that. It certainly sounds like ignition, but maybe the airbox mod has an effect? Did you go back to stock?
I don't know how much the ECU "learns" over time. It probably won't fix the problem but it's worthwhile to reset the learning parameters the next time you connect to Guzzidiag.




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« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 06:20:20 AM by Xlratr »
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #136 on: July 06, 2014, 12:26:04 PM »
Put your laptop in the saddle bag and log sensors and you will find the cause. This can also be done w/PADS at the dealer(if they know how to use it). If mapping changes didn't cure the stumble it is something mechanical. Clean TB's w/airscrews out, could be a dirty area on TPS, crap on timing sensor, something even on elect connecters.
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Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #137 on: July 06, 2014, 01:15:21 PM »
or if you have an Android phone/tablet, there is a diagnostics program that runs on that(scanm5x), connection to the bike with a bluetooth adapter.
And it can log values too
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=scantwin.scanmM5.AllinOne 
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 01:16:02 PM by pauldaytona »
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Offline Porterhouse

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #138 on: July 06, 2014, 01:56:12 PM »
Well darn.  I went out today and hooked everything back up, followed the directions from Pete, Mark et al and, bam-bam-bam everything worked fine.  I loaded up one of the new maps sent to me by Pete, the computer said all was okay.  After loading the new map, my TPS was off so I reset it back to 4.6.  I even warmed the bike up and the idle was very nice so I didn't trim the CO.

I took the bike out for several miles, and sure 'nuff, I still have a huge problem between 2000 and 3000 rpm. The new map made very little difference. In any gear, at any speed, if I let the revs fall down into the 2000-3000 range or when I take off from a stop, any throttle roll-on in that rpm range causes severe missing and snatching of the engine.  You'd think you could stall the motor if the throttle was rolled-on hard.

If I back off the throttle and ease it up, the engine will make it to about 2900-3000 where everything smooths out and the motor pulls like a tractor.

The valves are adjusted properly and the throttle bodies are balanced with mercury sticks.

I'm at a loss here. This bike didn't act like this until it had about 15k miles on it.  I now have about 25k.

I guess, I can use TunerPro and go in to try and modify the map and see what happens.  I also wonder of I'm suffering from a crankshaft sensor issue or something else. I keep thinking something other than the fuel map could be the problem.

I had Ian at Riders Hill hook it up to his machine and look at it several months ago and he said he had no idea what the problem could be.  

Any suggestions?

Was this your first map upload?  If so, did you also reset the Autolearning Parameters?  If not, all of the old lambda corrections are still on your ECU.


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Offline leafman60

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #139 on: July 06, 2014, 03:44:49 PM »
Was this your first map upload?  If so, did you also reset the Autolearning Parameters?  If not, all of the old lambda corrections are still on your ECU.

Now that's a thought.  I did not set the autolearning.  I'll try that.

Also Steve, I'll check the things you mentioned.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 04:08:49 PM by leafman60 »

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #140 on: July 06, 2014, 04:54:18 PM »
I'm with Steve. If re-mapping has left the problem intact then the root cause lies elsewhere. It stinks of spark to me but its very hard to tell from half a world away.

To start with I'd try stock airbox and exhaust just to rule out odd problems due to charge transition and cylinder fill issues, (I don't think this will cure it.) then I'd be checking the spark under load. Does it break down if you slowly open the throttle in neutral? Or only when riding?

One further thing, have you checked the valve clearances lately? And had they changed appreciably last time you set them?

Pete

Offline leafman60

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #141 on: July 06, 2014, 05:08:35 PM »
I really appreciate all of you trying to help!  I need it ! lol

Yes, Pete, I've reinstalled the stock muffler, put the airbox snorkel lid on and checked the valves and TB balance. None of that helped.

My next effort will be to install new spark plugs, then wrap the plug wires in tape and check the coil mountings etc.

I'm also going to remove and look at the crankshaft sensor.

The cutting-out normally happens exactly between 2000-3000 rpm when under load or that it when giving it throttle.   If I baby the throttle and ease it open, I do not notice much of a cut out.

Also, in neutral when stopped, if I do a quick blip of the throttle, say 1/3 of a crank, the engine will cough and die.

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Re: Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #142 on: July 06, 2014, 05:19:35 PM »
CAUTION
If your pet parrot is squawking and annoying the piss out of you, DON'T accidentally connect the Pos red and Neg Black cables arse about face or the Smoke Will come out of the OBD2 cable chips.
 It's a good thing they are relatively cheap  ;D
I tried to catch the smoke so I could put it back in , but the wind was blowing and it got away on me  ::)
For my next trick......... A dedicated 2 pin keyed plug so old Ten Thumbs here can't do this again
ALWAYS connect the back/negative wire to the frame. Then it doesn't matter what you do with the red wire, it won't let out smoke.

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Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #143 on: July 06, 2014, 05:21:20 PM »
you can even cut the black wire off, it gets the ground over the 3 pin plug, so you can't switch wires ever.
Paul

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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Re: Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #144 on: July 06, 2014, 05:26:45 PM »

Also, in neutral when stopped, if I do a quick blip of the throttle, say 1/3 of a crank, the engine will cough and die.

Sounds like a bad TPS.
Set up Guzzidiag to show a graph of the TPS.
Then, motor off, slowly open, close and open the throttle.  The graph should be smooth.
I've also had such goofy things from vibrating relay contacts and sidestand switchs, just as you pass through certain RPM.

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Offline rboe

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #145 on: July 06, 2014, 06:25:30 PM »
That is a great idea! How do you do it?
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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #146 on: July 07, 2014, 02:56:05 AM »
That is a great idea! How do you do it?

I can graph it with PADS but I'm not sure of the protocol with Guzzidiag. You should be able to get an idea though just with the engine off and the main parameters page open. Look at the TPS reading as you open the throttle slowly. It should be linear. If it suddenly stops and then jumps a large amount or drops to zero or does anything weird? That's the issue. I haven't had a TPS go bad on the 50mm TB's yet, note 'YET'!

I like Wayne's idea of clutch or sidestand switch too. This really doesn't sound like a mapping issue.

Pete

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #147 on: July 07, 2014, 04:31:33 AM »
Now that's a thought.  I did not set the autolearning.  I'll try that.

Also Steve, I'll check the things you mentioned.


Thanks Steve.

Leaf, resetting your learned parameters is paramount when uploading a new map.
Otherwise, the trims will work against a map designed not to be trimmed.

Offline leafman60

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #148 on: July 07, 2014, 08:43:33 AM »
Will do and report back!

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #149 on: July 08, 2014, 08:16:48 PM »
Ok, maybe guzzi made a mistake and switched colors on the 3 pin?
1 brown
2 black
3 blue

 3 pin connectors push in each other firm?

Hi, Paul.

Finally got a chance to check the cable on the bike, and I think it looks right:



Brown/Red
Black
Blue

The connection on the 3-pin cables seem to fit very well.   Not sure where to go next...  :-\

Thanks,
Shaun
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