Author Topic: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners  (Read 554223 times)

Offline Xlratr

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #870 on: April 17, 2016, 07:12:41 AM »
Thanks Larry. I'll sleep better now.


When you try the stock map, if it idles fine straight up, we can only assume your bike doesn't like my map.

Mark, if the high speed balance is good, but the idle requires 3 to 4 turns, it must surely be mechanical, not map related. The map can't affect the amount of air going through the TB.
John

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #871 on: April 17, 2016, 07:26:48 AM »
I agree. A less tuned map like the stock map may mask the symptoms.

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #872 on: April 17, 2016, 08:01:00 AM »
Balanced idle - 4 turns out on left side.

................... ...................

 but nothing when disconnecting, wobbling, reconnecting, tapping etc the right one.

Sure sounds like a huge air leak on the right side. That may also lean out the right lambda sensor until it stayed at zero.
Compare the spark plug ceramic color.

May not hurt to check the valve clearances too.


« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 08:54:15 AM by OMG »
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Offline Larry

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #873 on: April 17, 2016, 02:44:57 PM »
Photo of plugs.  The right one is richer than the left one. I have no idea what that means.



Checked the valves. No change since rollerization. Inlets 4 - Exhausts 6. One of the right hand inlets was probably 4.5 so I adjusted that.

Could I check for an air leak by spraying aerostart around the inlet area of the right TB?

The bike has done 46000klm and I've done 30000 of those in the last 2years. Truth is the bike has always run like this. I suspected early on that it wasn't right so cleaned the airways by spraying air intake cleaner down the air intake tubes, also pulled the injectors and made up a loom with battery and ran injector cleaner through them. Didn't make any difference.

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #873 on: April 17, 2016, 02:44:57 PM »

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #874 on: April 17, 2016, 04:03:15 PM »
Unlikely to be the map then. Did you buy the bike used?

Offline Larry

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #875 on: April 17, 2016, 04:33:43 PM »
Unlikely to be the map then. Did you buy the bike used?

Yes. From A1 in Ringwood. It had done 15000klms
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beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #876 on: April 17, 2016, 04:39:41 PM »
I wonder if someone has been fiddling with the TB prior to your purchase?

Does the paint on the sacred screw appear to be intact?

pete roper

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #877 on: April 17, 2016, 04:47:26 PM »
From memory it looked OK but that isn't to say the linkage rod or the *other* throttle stop screw haven't been screwed with.

Pete

Offline Larry

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #878 on: April 17, 2016, 04:53:57 PM »
They certainly don't look like they've been touched.
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Offline Larry

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #879 on: April 17, 2016, 06:58:28 PM »
This morning I left Mark's latest map installed, but I have closed both air bleeds and set the CO trim to zero.
It starts and runs just fine, maybe a little rough but not too bad IMHO - hear it here:



Or here if that doesn't work

http://vid337.photobucket.com/albums/n384/lnblackmore/20160418_085705_zpsqjj98rab.mp4


The 4000rpm balance is perfect, but the idle balance is total rubbish now.

Comments  :laugh:

Larry
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 07:01:05 PM by Larry »
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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #880 on: April 17, 2016, 09:21:47 PM »
Can you provide a screen grab of GuzziDiag connected showing RPM, temps and injection values with the current setup?

What happens if you open the required air bleed to improve balance?

Offline Xlratr

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #881 on: April 18, 2016, 12:45:08 AM »
Larry, the map has no influence on the amount of air entering the TBs, so assuming the sacred screw was never touched, two things spring to mind.
1) there is an air leak on the right side as mentionoed above.
Or
2) you are having issues checking the high speed balance.

Without wanting to muddy the waters, you might want to try an alternative method to balance the TBs. This is the way I've started to do mine and it works for me. Plus, it'll be a check for the high speed balance accuracy.

With the bleed screws closed and the engine warm, balance the idle using the high speed screw. Reset the TPS.
After that check to see if the TBs are in sync at 4000 rpm. If they are, then everything is fine. If there is a noticeable difference, we're back to the air leak.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 01:18:02 AM by Xlratr »
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Offline Larry

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #882 on: April 18, 2016, 01:29:20 AM »
I did that Xlratr.
Balance at 4000rpm was WAAAY out.
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Offline Larry

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #883 on: April 18, 2016, 01:42:30 AM »
Can you provide a screen grab of GuzziDiag connected showing RPM, temps and injection values with the current setup?

What happens if you open the required air bleed to improve balance?

SREENDUMPS:

Air Bleeds at Zero. CO @ Zero. Balanced @ 3500rpm

Took it for a run and it wasn't too good.

Air Bleeds at Zero. CO @ Zero. NOT-Balanced @ Idlerpm


Left Air Bleed 4Turns Out CO @ Zero Balanced @ Idlerpm


Left Air Bleed 4Turns Out CO @ 15 Balanced @ Idlerpm


It seems to run best around here   :sad:
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Offline Xlratr

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #884 on: April 18, 2016, 02:27:06 AM »
I did that Xlratr.
Balance at 4000rpm was WAAAY out.

Wow, that was quick!
Well that now rules out the possibility of a previous inaccurate high speed balance check. We're back to some mechanical cause such as air leak or (hopefully not!) messed with base line (sacred screw). If you can't detect an air leak anywhere on the right side (you could use starter spray) then I think you need to talk to Pete

Edit @Mark: I'm having a hard time understanding those Lambda numbers. It's been a while since I've looked at narrow band readings in GuzziDiag and I can't remember how it behaves at idle. Narrow band numbers are hard to interpret exactly, but still I would think a modified map would be showing something like 0,5V or higher at idle and maybe something slightly less at 3,500rpm in neutral. None of those numbers fit to that. A narrow band signal is from 0 to 1Volt. Does 4390mV really mean 0,43Volt? (if so it's wrongly calculated surely). And if 4390mV is really meant to be 0,43V, then 120mV at idle is off the scale. Something very strange there, but as I say, I've forgotten what the mV readings look like in GuzziDiag.

Edit 2: Again, I unfortunately can't remember, but I wonder if a screen shot from Guzzidiag is going to show a random mV number from the Lambda as it cycles back and forth between lean/rich on the standard map? Or does Guzzidiag average that out? Irrelevant I suppose because the Lamba is not operational in this case.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 04:11:14 AM by Xlratr »
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Offline Larry

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #885 on: April 18, 2016, 03:01:41 AM »


The sacred screw
Paint Doesn't look like it's been broken
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 03:04:38 AM by Larry »
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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #886 on: April 18, 2016, 06:37:13 AM »
John, I always ignore the lambda values in GuzziDiag. They're up and down like house numbers, and when caught in a screen shot, mean nothing.


What I find interesting is that in the last two shots, with idle at around 1300, the pulse-width is 1700uS less with a CO at +15

Riddle me that!

Offline Xlratr

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #887 on: April 18, 2016, 06:51:32 AM »
John, I always ignore the lambda values in GuzziDiag. They're up and down like house numbers, and when caught in a screen shot, mean nothing.
I thought that may be the case. But still, there are some strange numbers there.

What I find interesting is that in the last two shots, with idle at around 1300, the pulse-width is 1700uS less with a CO at +15
*If* your target Idle RPM in your Map is 1300RPM, I can see the ECU tying to maintain it in the way shown in the screen shots by adjusting the pulse width.
But I guess your Map Idle is 1250?
John

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #888 on: April 18, 2016, 07:11:57 AM »
Target idle is 1250, but unless the pulse is varying substantially, the pulse-width should be at least a higher value in the second screen shot. Therein may be the reason for the rough idle.

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #889 on: April 18, 2016, 07:21:45 AM »
Larry, what about the stepper? Any chance it might be jammed or non-functional?

Offline Larry

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #890 on: April 18, 2016, 07:28:26 AM »
Larry, what about the stepper? Any chance it might be jammed or non-functional?

How do I check that Mark?
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Offline Xlratr

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #891 on: April 18, 2016, 07:45:16 AM »
Larry, what about the stepper? Any chance it might be jammed or non-functional?

Worth checking, but I guess if it is open all the time then both TBs would get additional air equally and they would at least be in balance. But strange things happen.

I just noticed that screenshot 2 has 75% more pulse width than screenshot 4, for the same RPM, despite screenshot 4 having +15 CO Trim. I can only conclude that the numbers must be jumping around all over the place and that the screen shots just show a random selection  :sad:
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 07:46:31 AM by Xlratr »
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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #892 on: April 18, 2016, 08:05:21 AM »
John, I always ignore the lambda values in GuzziDiag. They're up and down like house numbers, and when caught in a screen shot, mean nothing.


What I find interesting is that in the last two shots, with idle at around 1300, the pulse-width is 1700uS less with a CO at +15

Riddle me that!

Can that be because the engine heat has gone up?
Adjusting the CO up, and getting a SMALLER pulse is all inside the ECU. No air leak or even a bad injector would cause that.


Just to confuse things, I would start looking for someone that can test injectors.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 08:11:09 AM by OMG »
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Offline Xlratr

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #893 on: April 18, 2016, 08:51:03 AM »
...
Adjusting the CO up, and getting a SMALLER pulse is all inside the ECU. No air leak or even a bad injector would cause that.
...

I think the ECUs primary goal at closed throttle is to maintain the target idle speed and it will do whatever is in its power to achieve that. That means adjusting timing and fuel. If there is some element in play like additional air coming from somewhere it will be all over the place trying to correct for it and those numbers we see in the pictures may just be a random view of a fluctuating picture. I can't help but get back to the fact that it's impossible to get the TBs balanced at both idle and high speed without introducing a lot more air on the left. To compensate for ... what?

Edit: Here's a crazy idea. If the bike has *always* been that way, what are the chances that the sacred screw was set wrongly at the factory? Or has the linkage mechanism been damaged at some point, thereby changing the geometry? Just throwing some ideas out there.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 09:39:16 AM by Xlratr »
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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #894 on: April 18, 2016, 10:09:53 AM »
How about the stepper motor hose to the one side is plugged up? Maybe. Confusing for sure.

I think the ECUs primary goal at closed throttle is to maintain the target idle speed and it will do whatever is in its power to achieve that. That means adjusting timing and fuel. If there is some element in play like additional air coming from somewhere it will be all over the place trying to correct for it and those numbers we see in the pictures may just be a random view of a fluctuating picture. I can't help but get back to the fact that it's impossible to get the TBs balanced at both idle and high speed without introducing a lot more air on the left. To compensate for ... what?

But, between photo 3 & 4, the RPM dropped slightly, the timing stayed the same, and the injector time got leaner, not richer to bump up the revs. But then I suspect the screen numbers are a bit too random to judge a lot on.

He has to add AIR to the left, and the right spark plug may be darker (RICH). (?)

Odd indeed. I'm going to have a beer or five now.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 01:49:56 PM by OMG »
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #895 on: April 18, 2016, 11:11:23 AM »
I'm thinking maybe some 40mm pumpers?  :evil: :smiley:
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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #896 on: April 18, 2016, 05:06:30 PM »
If my understanding of how the 5AM works, it does not vary the pulse-width for target idle. The pulse is determined strictly by the map + throttle + correction tables. To correct idle, it uses the stepper motor.

In the screen shots, the engine temperature from 118 to 125 will not affect the the pulse-width. From 105 to 112, definitely. In this map, the correction value is the same for above 111 degrees. The  air temperature correction would, as the placement of the air temp sensor can cause the correctional value to change due to the fact the bike is stationary, and engine heat may affect the sensor. I would not expect a 36% reduction in pulse-width in this case, maybe 5%. Add CO trim at +15, which should have added 150uS, one can only guess that the screen shot can not be relied on to accurately reflect reality.




Larry, an easy way to check if the stepper is working, is to switch the ignition on. After the fuel pump has primed, turn the key off. You should hear the whirring noise of the stepper.

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #897 on: April 18, 2016, 05:08:26 PM »
I'm thinking maybe some 40mm pumpers?  :evil: :smiley:
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You're funny.  :violent1:

Offline Larry

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #898 on: April 18, 2016, 06:32:27 PM »
Stepper appears to be working by Mark's  method.

This morning I pulled the injectors and ran some cleaner through them using a syringe of injector cleaner and activating using a 12v switch connected to give current. Both seemed to work OK. I swapped them over.

Also checked the air filter, clean, and sprayed some fancy voodoo air intake cleaner through the intakes while the bike was running. That's supposed to clean the butterflies I hope.

Connected Guzzidiag and balancing tubes. Nothings changed at idle.

I'll get some quick start stuff today and see if I can find an air leak. I'm assuming just spray it around the TB area?
I'm not sure what else I can do.

On 15th of May I'm loading this thing into a crate to be loaded into a container to ship it to Rotterdam for a 3 month jaunt around Western Europe from mid July.  It'd be good to have it fixed by then 😊
 It's been running like this for as long as I can remember so another 10000klms isn't going to hurt it  ???

I hope 😦😨
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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #899 on: April 18, 2016, 06:36:04 PM »
Have you nipped up the intake boots? They can come loose.

 

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