Author Topic: AFR monitoring  (Read 755 times)

Offline lucian

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AFR monitoring
« on: July 03, 2022, 09:46:03 AM »
Thought I would share the latest gadget added to my Griso. I  wanted to be able to monitor the air/fuel ratio in real time while riding so I can witness the effects of some tweaks on my fuel map. I finally got some time over the holiday to install and hopefully get to go for a ride soon to see how it works out. This is the unit I purchased which I liked as it has both digital and analog readout and a wide band o2 sensor. It also has the ability to add data logging and is programmable for different ecu output voltages.
 


 Had to fab a bracket to clamp onto the dart screen bracket.  Install was pretty straightforward , remove oem 02 senor and install wide band sensor supplied. wire power to  a fused 12 source and a ground. I piggybacked onto the headlight connector by identifying + and - pins in the connector with a multimeter and then inserting the  wire ends into the receiving side of the connector and then pushing it back on the headlight. No hacking the loom and easily removeable . The o2 sensor has a heater which should be warmed up before start up ideally. Also, it should be not left on accidentally, so the headlight circuit is ideal as it is switched with the ignition  and is energized with key on before starting..













 I will follow up on it's operation and usefulness in identifying lean/rich running conditions.

Offline usedtobefast

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2022, 11:19:36 AM »
For data logging, can it create a table showing throttle position, rpm, and afr reading?   Seems you would need that to accurately tweak fueling tables.

For example, say you do a test ... riding along, approx 3,000 rpms, 3rd gear, your AFR gauge shows a "good" number, then you accelerate briskly and the AFR gauge is changing a bunch and in general looked a bit too rich.  So to tweak the fueling table, what rpm and throttle position numbers do you want to modify?  Maybe you went from 3,000 rpms to 5,000 rpms ... but throttle position?  Seems a lot of guessing to say "maybe I was at 1/4 throttle and twisted it to 3/4 throttle?" ... so look at table entries for 25% - 75% throttle and 3000-5000 rpms and lean out a bit? 

I looked at this a bit in the past (never bought anything) but could not understand what info you could get out of various data loggers. 
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Offline yogidozer

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2022, 11:23:14 AM »
Does it get youtube and MLB games too?  :laugh:

Offline lucian

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2022, 07:40:37 PM »
 I am finding this afr gauge very useful for tweaking the griso's fueling map. As Usedtobefast mentioned, it's necessary to be in the ballpark with rpm vs. throttle opening to narrow down the specific areas of the main map to adjust . I was actually doing quite well by identifying lean and rich areas of running via the gauge, and rpms via the dash, and approximating the throttle opening via the twist grip travel.  I was able to make good progress targeting and correcting a few areas of the map that ran either too rich or too lean but was having dificulty blending those corrections smoothly to surrounding cells that ran good. The problem was my approximating the tps angle by feel as a tiny twist of the throttle results in a pretty substantial change.
 Problem solved with very simple homemade twistgrip reference dial. I am now able to logg afr . rpm and throttle position acurately enough to target the problem cells with out too much overlap into cells that are performing well. After two logging runs and two map editing's , I have the bike running smoothly at a 13.8 target afr consistently.  Next I need to do some WOT. pulls to see whats happening in scream mode. ( Hard to do legally and is not where I commonly ride anyhow) Anyway just want to make sure thing are'nt too lean up  at the top .end.  I would defiantly recommend this gauge to anyone interested in venturing into FI tuning . Very rewarding to be able to optimize  your bikes fueling to how and where you ride it . It is however, time consuming. But what a great excuse to ride those test runs. My throttle dial is just a paint dot on the twist gripp and a strip of white electrical tape with calibrations set using guzzi diag to demark degrees of throttle openings from 0, (actually 4.8) to WOT ( 85) in 20 degree increments.  I can easily approximate the in-betweens from there.  When making map corrections I smooth the transitions to surrounding cells numerically .
     



« Last Edit: July 07, 2022, 08:17:31 PM by lucian »

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2022, 07:40:37 PM »

Offline Pridanc

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2022, 05:13:30 PM »
Hey Guys, I too am about to toss some of my AFR monitoring stuff onto my Goose (V85) to have some idea of what is happening as pertains AFR, throttle position and RPM. Other than the actual AFR's all the other data comes from the OBDII port. This is cheating for sure and the equipment records to be looked at on your laptop at anytime afterwords. I'm about to toss it on but before I do I wondered if anyone knew where I can find the OE Lambda sensor connectors?
I think they look like this (yes, I've had them off before but did not take pictures. So, a search has found these.




I'd love to use them instead of something proprietary (as in my own ends) so that future O2 sensor replacements are plug and play.  One of the cool things about this tool is that I swap out the narrow band sensors with the wide band ones for the recordings and output the narrow band voltages so that the stock ECU can still "do its thing" all without welding in two more sensor bungs. This stuff is not new but I finally decided to get off my backside before I have another birthday. Once I've gathered the data I want, I will then sneak into my ECU and make some changes.  Fun times are ahead. Oh, do I need to do any of this? Nope but it is fun to do.

Thanks in advance, Sincerely PC

UPDATE: Pretty sure I just found these at CycleTerminal. Once they are in my hand I can let y'all know for a fact.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 04:35:59 PM by Pridanc »

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2022, 06:19:57 PM »
We were doing the same on my friends Griso and found that his stock air filter made the leanest conditions (pulling more air) than K&N or BMC filters.
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Offline lucian

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2022, 08:09:47 PM »
I have found the important thing is accuracy when it comes to identifying throttle position. I have modified my throttle position scale to a larger radius with a more precise indicator. The result is I can target individual cells in the map . Smoothing the transitions is important. Make sure the transitions from look up tables are smooth also.



Offline guzzisteve

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2022, 08:56:52 PM »
The MyECU that I have has a dashboard w/readout where you are on map, and you can change it, in real time.
I got a newer version on my tablet, it also has logging.
I have done this stuff going down the road, I do not advise it.
I like the way you raised scale.
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Offline lucian

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2022, 09:12:24 PM »
The MyECU that I have has a dashboard w/readout where you are on map, and you can change it, in real time.
I got a newer version on my tablet, it also has logging.
I have done this stuff going down the road, I do not advise it.
I like the way you raised scale.
That sounds pretty high tech. I have found that while riding I can easily identify and remember the rpm and throttle position where AFR is too lean or too rich depending on load/ demand. I would also like to be able to see where engine temp is in real time to know where exactly the temp corrections are . I have found I can stop and check my oil temp gauge and know within reason where that is. It's amazing how much better the fueling can get with persistence and corrections. A lot of saddle time. 

Offline Frenchfrog

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2022, 02:26:18 AM »
 Great stuff Lucian. I've fitted one to my Tonti.Its been quite a process tuning with it and I'm not over yet by any means...good to have empirical data though.

Offline Xlratr

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2022, 06:47:49 AM »
If you're serious about data logging, it really is helpful to have a device that records rpm and throttle position (tap into the TPS). You just go for a ride and come home with a table full of AFR data.
It takes a bit more setting up, but imho worthwhile.
Innovate has a good product.
John

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Online lazlokovacs

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2022, 06:32:59 PM »
charge transfer and valve overlap mean that those AFR numbers are not always accurate....

What we want to know is what's happening within the combustion chamber, what the AFR tells us is what's in the exhaust a nanosecond later. Not necessarily the same thing.

I believe the 1200 engines are particularly difficult to map by AFR alone

Do post up all the results though, as stated above, empirical data is always welcome.

What map are you running currently?


Offline Xlratr

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2022, 07:19:46 AM »
charge transfer and valve overlap mean that those AFR numbers are not always accurate....

What we want to know is what's happening within the combustion chamber, what the AFR tells us is what's in the exhaust a nanosecond later. Not necessarily the same thing.

I believe the 1200 engines are particularly difficult to map by AFR alone

Do post up all the results though, as stated above, empirical data is always welcome.

What map are you running currently?

That is correct. But it also applies to the AFR measuring methods outlined above.
When I started out mapping my Stelvio back in 2014, I also had an AFR display mounted on the bars, with a homemade scale attached to the throttle grip. At least for me that proved to be inadequate. I couldn't really remember more than a handful of rpm/tps/AFR combinations and it was taking me an eternity to make any progress. Also, the AFR readout you see on those displays is just the value at that moment in time, not an average.
I gave up on the single display and ended up with a twin sensor logger from Innovate. You can set the mV value for each TPS position and enter the rpm values for every position in the map table. Just go out for a ride, press "record" and come home with a gold mine of information. Hundreds or thousands of data points and average AFR at every tps/rpm combination that you ride at. You can also see how often those values are recorded to understand which are the most important points in the map table for your riding style.
You're right in saying that charge transfer plays an important role in some areas of the table and you can't always trust the AFR value. But having this overall picture of the complete table in 3D helps you spot the weird values and you can adjust accordingly using common sense.
It's just my experience, but the proper data logger was invaluable for me.
I spent thousands of miles logging data and making my own map. It's fascinating, but it can be a rabbit hole and it's possible to get obsessive about it  ;-)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 04:33:14 PM by Xlratr »
John

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Online lazlokovacs

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2022, 04:30:28 PM »
oh yes... the obsessive logging! been there done that!!

Part of the reason I bought a griso was so I could forget about all that stuff and just use one of mark/beetle's maps. Absolutely perfect in my opinion..


Offline lucian

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2022, 05:16:53 PM »
I have found through trial and error , that a wide band AFR monitor and an accurate throttle position indicator works wonders for identifying specific areas of the fueling that are less than ideal. A data logger or an AFR  gauge gets the afr data the same way , via the wide band o2 sensor. Weather you choose  to log the data into a devise or  just identify and remember the rpm and throttle position where  problem areas of you particular map occur is personal choice . Both methods work and require some saddle time. In my case, there was only a couple of issues that prompted me to delve into all of this. Mainly related to the fuel warm up map and engine temp corrections, both of which I have been able to resolve ,as well as smoothing out many transitions between cells that were abrupt and caused noticeable glitches in the fueling and  performance.  The editing I do with Tuner Pro and have found the smoothing feature and the ability to graph the tables in 3D extremely useful. If the end result is the same, a better running MC ,the means  you choose to get there is personal choice.

Offline SemperVee

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Re: AFR monitoring
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2022, 09:55:42 AM »
  I have used an AFR meter for my Victory and found it very very useful to control fuel under actual real time load conditions!   Made a material difference when adding a fuel tuner.
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