Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: vstevens on August 21, 2019, 07:56:02 AM
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Lately I've been reading up and YouTubing watching a lot of motorcycle history. Suzuki was a textile manufacturer before the war, Yamaha a piano and instrument company. Yamaha (and I'm sure the rest of the big 4 as well) followed the idea of 'Kendo" - a philosophy of sorts that tries to 'marry' beauty, form, and function. I have to say I'm a bit inspired by their stories rising up from the ashes of the war (quite literally in some cases). All of this has me taking a fresh look at the Japanese bikes of the past few decades. I especially like the Yamaha Virago 535. I knew a young lady who rode one back in the 80's. I admired her too. At the time, I had a Suzuki gs550 (UJM). Both great bikes.
Anyway, just thinking out loud. Sometimes I get caught up in the 'echo chamber' of Guzzi and forget how many great motorcycle makers are out there - Japanese, European, Italian, British, American... and Chinese and Indian (don't want to leave anyone out). It seems many of them come from humble beginnings, cheap transportation for the masses when it's needed most. I know this isn't new. Just wanted to share.
Vince
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Lots of intrigue surrounding the Japanese motorbike industry's rise to prominence also , it can make for some interesting reading .
Probably my favorite origins story is how Mr Honda just kept at it until he succeeded .
Dusty
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good stuff, thanks for sharing
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Obtuse? Perhaps. Looking to start trouble? Just an opinion search, if you will.
I apologize, 4th with.
Anyone care to compare the Japanese vehicle industry to those in Germany?
DAR, R3~
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Obtuse? Perhaps. Looking to start trouble? Just an opinion search, if you will.
I apologize, 4th with.
Anyone care to compare the Japanese vehicle industry to those in Germany?
DAR, R3~
... peace... no harm intended... just sharing my love of motorcycles :grin:
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My first through 4th bikes were are the Yamaha 78-82 XS XJ series, very nice reliable affordable bikes. I would not hesitate to take any one of them on another cross country run right now. My interest in Guzzi came about after discussions with friends and rides on their European bikes. One of my long time friends explained that in his opinion that while the UJM were dependable and functional the high centers of gravity typical of the majority of UJMs of the era revealed the design flaws of the bikes. It was his opinion that cruiser style UJMs were designed from the top down to appeal to the market craving of the popular chopper look, The market of the time was selling the easy rider look for less than 1/2 the price of a Harley. The big difference was in the handling, Again his opinion, The European bikes of the time were designed from the road up emphasizing handling required on Europe’s winding narrow roads.
So in addition to our 3 Yamahas we now have 4 Guzzis and while the Yamahas sit with around 30,000-40,000 miles on them our mileage on each of the Guzzis is about close to double that on our Yamahas.
Perhaps I’m biased now but I tend to agree with my friends assessment, the Guzzis handling on two lane twisting country roads is vastly superior to our UJMs for a lot of reasons. However I must admit the crack the throttle rush one gets from the 79 XS 750 or the XS1100 always brings an ear to ear grin.
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Well, even if it is humble transportation: the Honda Super Cub (the original one) is a thing of beauty. Both in terms of engineering and of the looks. Well, when I think about it, the same applies to the Vespa.....
The Yamaha Virago535 is frowned upon here in Germany. I do not understand why. Ok, it is not the style of bike I prefer, but it is well executed. A friend bought such a thing for cheap, cleaned and polished it, and he loves riding it. He really enjoys each minute on this humble bike. And I can understand him.
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If I ever got the right balance, handling and feel of a Japanese bike, I'd never put up with the aggravation of owning Italian ones.
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(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-MfLB5Ws/0/279b8feb/S/IMG004-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-MfLB5Ws/A)
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By definition the UJM did not imitate the chopper look.
The UJM was the Honda CB series, Suzuki GS, Yam XS and Kaw KZ, the "cruiser" style models excepted.
Kawasaki built ships and airplanes and other stuff.
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After my wife saw the "Twist the Throttle" episode on Yamaha, where the YA1 was shown (Yamahas first motorcycle which was nicknamed the Red Dragonfly), she wanted to have a little dragon fly air brushed on the tank of her red FJ09. :wink:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=twist+the+throttle+yamaha&view=detail&mid=0369C5A8E525FCA48B4E0369C5A8E525FCA48B4E&FORM=VIRE
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(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-MfLB5Ws/0/279b8feb/S/IMG004-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-MfLB5Ws/A)
I’ve seen that look before..!
Nice shot.
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"Blame" Harley for the rise of the Japanese Motorcycle Industry :boozing:
Look up Rikuo and Alfred Child's.
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(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-MfLB5Ws/0/279b8feb/S/IMG004-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-MfLB5Ws/A)
Foto does she still ride?
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No but I do.
(https://i.ibb.co/BGkwDMt/25725-DE5-9-BC0-42-D5-9-D55-9008-B731-B5-E4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BGkwDMt)
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For an interesting perspective read "Stealing Speed" by Matt Oxley.
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If I ever got the right balance, handling and feel of a Japanese bike, I'd never put up with the aggravation of owning Italian ones.
Word. :wink:
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I've owned a couple Japanese bikes, from Suzuki, Kawasaki, and currently have a Honda Goldwing.
Japanese bikes are great in terms of ease of living with them... but they have made them so reliable, so intuitive, and so smooth (Goldwing reference) that they have lost the "feel" of being on a motorcycle. They "feel" like a kitchen appliance. Simple, reliable, and they do the job.... but who wants to ride their blender to work every day?
No, I own and ride my Guzzi because it's not a perfectly balanced, homogenized, mass-marketed appliance.
She has character, and makes any ride, even just across town, an adventure.
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What I find interesting about the Japanese industry is that while they were growing, they became known for high quality engineering in terms of performance, but with little focus on long term supportability. Meanwhile the Europeans were building bikes built to be maintained for decades as a major priority. Nowadays the Japanese industry seems to have grown into maturity, making design decisions very carefully and with some level of conservatism: for example they never got caught up in the warping plastic fuel tank debacle and their electronics seem to made reliable before release to the public. Meanwhile, shockingly to me, the European industry has gone headlong into consumer throwaway mentality with poor implementation of new technology, poor reliability, complex dealer centered maintenance and low resale value. The bikes (e.g. BMW and Ducati) sell mostly based on brand status. The tables have turned completely and I’m left wondering if my ‘core values’ should lead me to Japanese bikes now, for the same reason they once led me to European bikes.
The V85TT is the first new European bike for a while that seems to me to be reversing the trend. That’s encouraging to me.
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For an interesting perspective read "Stealing Speed" by Matt Oxley.
great book. well written and good story.
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What I find interesting about the Japanese industry is that while they were growing, they became known for high quality engineering in terms of performance, but with little focus on long term supportability. Meanwhile the Europeans were building bikes built to be maintained for decades as a major priority. Nowadays the Japanese industry seems to have grown into maturity, making design decisions very carefully and with some level of conservatism: for example they never got caught up in the warping plastic fuel tank debacle and their electronics seem to made reliable before release to the public. Meanwhile, shockingly to me, the European industry has gone headlong into consumer throwaway mentality with poor implementation of new technology, poor reliability, complex dealer centered maintenance and low resale value. The bikes (e.g. BMW and Ducati) sell mostly based on brand status. The tables have turned completely and I’m left wondering if my ‘core values’ should lead me to Japanese bikes now, for the same reason they once led me to European bikes.
The V85TT is the first new European bike for a while that seems to me to be reversing the trend. That’s encouraging to me.
Well said!
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What I find interesting about the Japanese industry is that while they were growing, they became known for high quality engineering in terms of performance, but with little focus on long term supportability. Meanwhile the Europeans were building bikes built to be maintained for decades as a major priority. Nowadays the Japanese industry seems to have grown into maturity, making design decisions very carefully and with some level of conservatism: for example they never got caught up in the warping plastic fuel tank debacle and their electronics seem to made reliable before release to the public. Meanwhile, shockingly to me, the European industry has gone headlong into consumer throwaway mentality with poor implementation of new technology, poor reliability, complex dealer centered maintenance and low resale value. The bikes (e.g. BMW and Ducati) sell mostly based on brand status. The tables have turned completely and I’m left wondering if my ‘core values’ should lead me to Japanese bikes now, for the same reason they once led me to European bikes.
The V85TT is the first new European bike for a while that seems to me to be reversing the trend. That’s encouraging to me.
Can't entirely agree with this statement. I find Japanese bikes are often decent. I would venture to say that Japanese bikes have had as many throw away components on different models. Japanese bikes also have had a number of quality problems and recalls that do occur. Maybe not as often as some others. Yamaha actually has the most recalls but considering the number of bikes made is not bad. I think this a popular but skewed perspective.
I find kawasaki and Honda far harder to work on just for sheer accessibility. Maybe they break less but when they do( and they will) much harder to fix. If it has moving parts it will break.
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Try working on virtually anything Aprilia has ever made if you want poor accessibility. I think Guzzi is the best hope for my kind of European motorcycle, the rest have gone to a place I have no interest in going.
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I think guzzi is a unique animal. But if we are talking sport bikes of any variety im sure we can agree they are a pain to work on. I don't find Japanese bikes any better in these situations. You make your choice and ride what you like. As far as cruisers i find bmw, Guzzi far easier to work on.
Just one perspective among many.
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I think guzzi is a unique animal. But if we are talking sport bikes of any variety im sure we can agree they are a pain to work on. I don't find Japanese bikes any better in these situations. You make your choice and ride what you like. As far as cruisers i find bmw, Guzzi far easier to work on.
Just one perspective among many.
Unique today, that’s for sure, especially when comparing the newest Guzzis with other new European bikes. Cruisers don’t do what I want but I’d prefer to keep buying sporting bikes that are super easy to work on, never go to a dealer and can be maintained by me individually for the rest of my life. My 900SS Ducatis are a good example, and my older Guzzis, and also my older Suzuki SV650.
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I enjoy them and the value on the early vintage models are starting to climb, (ie) Honda CL 305's, Dreams, Hawkes, 450's also, particularly the Scrambler models. I try to find at least one or two a year to play with when the snow flies but they are getting very hard to locate at price I can afford. A couple of shots of my last project, it lives with me now.....
(https://i.ibb.co/s39Y6vZ/DSC03785.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s39Y6vZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/8s52v9N/DSC03944.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8s52v9N)
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I've owned a couple Japanese bikes, from Suzuki, Kawasaki, and currently have a Honda Goldwing.
Japanese bikes are great in terms of ease of living with them... but they have made them so reliable, so intuitive, and so smooth (Goldwing reference) that they have lost the "feel" of being on a motorcycle. They "feel" like a kitchen appliance. Simple, reliable, and they do the job.... but who wants to ride their blender to work every day?
No, I own and ride my Guzzi because it's not a perfectly balanced, homogenized, mass-marketed appliance.
She has character, and makes any ride, even just across town, an adventure.
This....I posted on here a few years ago rebuilding a 81 Honda 750 into a cafe racer...lots of modifications like forks from a VFR, wider tires and rims, revised steering geometry and so on...It was a nice bike,much better handling and brakes ,a fine runner... But it was still "boring", I sold it and that was that...I get on my old 900 Monster and it's just a thrill ride..Or hustling the 79 Triumph 750 down the rural roads..On the Triumph even after the engine is shut down and you walk away, you can still feel the bike..LOL....
But I'm a short distance rider, and hour is a long ride for me.. I also realize we all don't have the same likes and dislikes...
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https://vermont.craigslist.org/mcy/d/lake-elmore-1966-yamaha-yds3-sport-model/6962333243.html
(https://i.ibb.co/B3VBJbz/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B3VBJbz)
(https://i.ibb.co/1bGWDZk/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1bGWDZk)
(https://i.ibb.co/SXPMjcD/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SXPMjcD)
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Honda Super Cub (the original one) is a thing of beauty
That’s my dog LuLu’s current favorite.
(https://i.ibb.co/Lt6KYby/40-D62-C5-B-22-D6-4-F0-B-B382-0-CD119011-F03.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lt6KYby)
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The thing I’ve always found most grating about motorcyclists that only ride Italian bikes is when they say Japanese bikes are soulless. Those people lack imagination. This photo is from last year. For my daughter’s high school senior project she took the MSF three day course to obtain her license, fixed up a 1975 Honda CT90(with plenty of help from me) and rode the Puppy Dog Trail. She got a standing ovation and an A+ when she presented it. I just dropped her off at UNC last week and she’s already begging me to bring her bike down.
Japanese motorcycles have launched hundreds of millions of people into a lifelong love of motorcycling. No other country has made such an enormous contribution to motorcycling.
(https://i.ibb.co/zXLhKZ9/40-AC86-E2-ACD5-4526-A8-CE-3-BDA7-D5-AAD60.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zXLhKZ9)
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What a great idea!...love it
In British parlance, she's flipping the bird at me though..turning your palm forward is a peace sign, just in time for Woodstock 50th..
I've seriously considered a new Honda cub
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What a great idea!...love it
In British parlance, she's flipping the bird at me though..turning your palm forward is a peace sign, just in time for Woodstock 50th..
I've seriously considered a new Honda cub
Have you seen one? They’re ridiculously well finished. I’ve been toying with the idea of getting one too. Trouble is, you’re looking at close to $4,500 OTD for a 125cc scooter. That’s Vespa 150 territory. I’d rather have the Honda but I’m not sure who else would. There was a very limited supply of Super Cub’s this year and dealers haven’t seemed willing to budge on pricing. Many sold at a premium over MSRP. It’s a hard pill to swallow when Grom’s are selling for $3k with an identical drivetrain.
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Have you seen one? They’re ridiculously well finished. I’ve been toying with the idea of getting one too. Trouble is, you’re looking at close to $4,500 OTD for a 125cc scooter. That’s Vespa 150 territory. I’d rather have the Honda but I’m not sure who else would. There was a very limited supply of Super Cub’s this year and dealers haven’t seemed willing to budge on pricing. Many sold at a premium over MSRP. It’s a hard pill to swallow when Grom’s are selling for $3k with an identical drivetrain.
Dealers in the US have been allocated one each of the 125cc Cub, at least for the first year.. I'm friends with the owner of a local Honda/BMW shop. He is keeping his allocated bike as part of his collection. I don't see any dealers budging on price this year. Maybe next year if Honda builds a lot more of them, or once everyone that wants one has one.
That seems to be a thing with retro Japanese bikes. Take both the 2000-2001 W650 and, 13 years later the CB1100. Both ended up languishing on showroom floors after the initial batch of enthusiast all got theirs.
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They’re bringing them in for 2020 but they’re red. Not Honda red either. I’m not crazy about the color. The blue looks super sharp in person. I live 4 miles from work and my schedule is 4 ten hour days. They get 100mpg. I could ride it back and forth to work for five months for about $20.
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I've owned only about a dozen motorcycles. Mostly British and Japanese. For me British ruled in the 60's and I owned 3 Triumph's back then. But the CB750 cam out and I sold my 69 Bonneville to buy one. Geeze what a magnitude of difference. Electrics, bright lights, brakes, smoothness, and POWER!
Then family and career got in my way for a few decades and I bought a new 1998 EV. I was hooked, still am. Toured all over the east half of the country and fell in love with it's uniqueness. However in 2000 I bought a 1200 Suzuki Bandit and tuned it for power. Damn what a ride, put 66,000 miles on it.
The power was amazing and the thing was bullet proof. Had an exciting ball owning it.
Next I bought a 2009 Yamaha FJR. Holley crapolla what a magnificent sport touring bike. This bike is made for trips. It doesn't fit me well but it has so many good virtues I still own it. However, I missed my old lighter weight Bandit so just recently bought a used one. Fun as before but this one is stock tuned for 'normal" street riding and better suited to my now aging riding style. So right now the FJR, the Bandit and the 98 EV are in the garage...Which one has the most miles and my favorite? The trusty, quirky 98EV.
Bill
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This is out here. https://honolulu.craigslist.org/big/mcy/d/volcano-1976-honda-trail-90/6961573036.html