Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bill Hagan on January 12, 2015, 07:49:01 AM

Title: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Bill Hagan on January 12, 2015, 07:49:01 AM

Started to add this to the National Rally thread, but it’s more about my frustration with Google maps than with the road to the rally proper.  If Mod Mike feels differently, won’t hurt my feelings to have it merged.  :D

Anyway, I am not smart enough to get Google maps to display "directions" in "terrain” mode.

As an example, our (very tentative) routing is a mere 500-mile back-road delight ... sort of, maybe, could be, something like this, https://goo.gl/maps/l9y0S (https://goo.gl/maps/l9y0S).

Wish I could see that in “terrain,” but can’t, darn it, as it would be easier to tweak ahead of time.  Still, it is looking to be a fine trip up the valleys of the Appalachian spine. 

Google maps once supported that function, but some “improvement” seems to have deleted it … or, at least, I cannot figure out how to do it.  Anyone figured a work-around or another routing service that does better?

FWIW, I am using a MacBook Pro with OS X 10.9.5, and Safari Version 7.1.2 (9537.85.11.5).

Grazie.

Bill

P.S. Would be happy to hear from anyone about suggestions for different roads or attractions along the way.  Intend to RON vicinity Scranton, which is about halfway there.



Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: fotoguzzi on January 12, 2015, 07:58:53 AM
lower left corner, satellite view?
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Bill Hagan on January 12, 2015, 08:16:30 AM


lower left corner, satellite view?

Thanks, but not the same for my purposes.

Here’s a satellite shot of where we live:

https://goo.gl/maps/sr5PY (https://goo.gl/maps/sr5PY)

Here’s same in “terrain,” a topographical depiction that is way more useful for me in finding fun roads:

https://goo.gl/maps/d9i5d (https://goo.gl/maps/d9i5d) 

Bill


Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: rocker59 on January 12, 2015, 08:27:42 AM
They "upgraded" Google Maps awhile back.  You cannot view routes in terrain mode, anymore. 

They've also limited the number of way points you can put in.

Terrain mode is available, and if you know your route, you can use it.  You just won't have the blue line overlaying the map.

If you open two tabs and open two sessions of Google Maps, you could toggle back and forth between the two.

It does suck that their "upgrade" took away capability.
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Bill Hagan on January 12, 2015, 08:39:34 AM
They "upgraded" Google Maps awhile back.  You cannot view routes in terrain mode, anymore. 

They've also limited the number of way points you can put in.

Terrain mode is available, and if you know your route, you can use it.  You just won't have the blue line overlaying the map.

If you open two tabs and open two sessions of Google Maps, you could toggle back and forth between the two.

It does suck that their "upgrade" took away capability.

Thanks, Mike.

Figured.

I've been doing that "toggling."

Yet another example of how "new & improved" often isn't.   :'(

Bill

Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Waltr on January 12, 2015, 08:52:28 AM
   Route 11 from Selinsgrove  to Moosic can get a little busy, lots of little towns. I like it but not the best if you are trying to make time.  Anywhere close to Old Forge PA and I would stop in Revillo's and get a couple of slices with a tossed salad (get cheese on the salad if you like cheese).  I really don't like 209 below Stroudsburg, there  seems to always be construction and the road surface is not great.  209 from Port Jervis up is a nice.  
   My wife grew up in Shelbourne Falls, MA and you go right by it on Rt. 2.  It was the town that was used for the movie The Judge recently.  Gorgeous little town on the Deerfield river,  some nice little restaurants and if your traveling with your wives a visit to the Bridge of Flowers will certainly be appreciated.
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: O on January 12, 2015, 09:55:39 AM
Hey Bill, 

Click on the question mark icon in the lower right hand corner of the screen, and you'll have the option to "return to classic google maps" which has the terrain feature.

Not sure why the powers that be at google 'upgraded' the maps and removed functionality, not to mention making it completely non-intuitive.  If it aint broke...

Cheers,
Owen
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Bill Hagan on January 12, 2015, 10:12:48 AM
Hey Bill,  

Click on the question mark icon in the lower right hand corner of the screen, and you'll have the option to "return to classic google maps" which has the terrain feature.

Not sure why the powers that be at google 'upgraded' the maps and removed functionality, not to mention making it completely non-intuitive.  If it aint broke...

Cheers,
Owen

Specdarntacular!   :bow :bow :bow

http://goo.gl/maps/hwWRR

Grazie mille!


  Route 11 from Selinsgrove  to Moosic can get a little busy, lots of little towns. I like it but not the best if you are trying to make time.  Anywhere close to Old Forge PA and I would stop in Revillo's and get a couple of slices with a tossed salad (get cheese on the salad if you like cheese).  I really don't like 209 below Stroudsburg, there  seems to always be construction and the road surface is not great.  209 from Port Jervis up is a nice.  
   My wife grew up in Shelbourne Falls, MA and you go right by it on Rt. 2.  It was the town that was used for the movie The Judge recently.  Gorgeous little town on the Deerfield river,  some nice little restaurants and if your traveling with your wives a visit to the Bridge of Flowers will certainly be appreciated.

Thanks for this, too.

I actually love the little towns, but that doesn't necessarily mean "we" do.   ;)

Actually, Kathi loves back roads, too, but thinks I might stop too often at local dives to check out how yankees do biscuits and gravy, or, later in the day, local craft beer, etc.  She's right, of course.   :wife:

We will now fine tune the route ... subject, naturally, to those last-minute deviations that make what we motorcyclists do so much more rewarding ... with "terrain" and recommendations such as yours.

Best to all; hope to see many here there.

Bill

Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Stormtruck2 on January 12, 2015, 10:33:15 AM
So fr we are planning on being there, barring employment difficulties.  (Were's the wage slave emoticon at?)
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on January 12, 2015, 10:34:05 AM
I fight endlessly with the GPS & Google maps...  So irritating to have all this computer power and not be proficient at it  :-\

Is there any mapping software where you can just simply click click click the waypoints you want (in order) and then it turns it into a route??

Have you ever wondered into the ADV GPS forum!!??!!  I thought I could research and sharpen my skills there.. but it appears they only discuss full-on NASA telemetry in Greek over there. WAAAY over my head
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: dilligaf on January 12, 2015, 11:12:01 AM
Boy you can tell it's winter time.  As I type son in law (SIL) and I are working on a ride to Newfoundland this Spring. Once there I understand SIL is going to head for AK and I am planning on a stop at the National and the VA rally on the return ride.  We made it to Saint John, NB this past September but, just ran out of time so this Spring will be a continuation or last Fall.  :BEER:
Matt
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: bmc5733946 on January 12, 2015, 12:17:28 PM
I am looking for a trip planning software that allows a full range of planning options for routing (I like to use two lanes roads where feasible). I found a planning system through adv-rider called Furkot that seems like it could be a useful tool but I'm not savy enough to figure it out yet. Furkot seems to be able to help you plan most every thing down to frequency of fuel stops and resting/sleeping periods, I just haven't been able to suss out the way to use it. I got a basic two lane route from google maps but can't seem to import it to Furkot. Heck I can't even seem to figure out how to save the route in google maps. I'm planning a trip from MI to Yosemite NP for mid May, 10 days camping with a hotel every so often. Might even make it back for the national rally in NH in June.

Brian
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: rocker59 on January 12, 2015, 12:35:07 PM
I just tried the "return to classic Google Maps" and realized that I'd really gotten used to the new version!

Other than lacking the terrain feature with a route in place, I kind of like the New Google Maps.
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: pehayes on January 12, 2015, 01:09:24 PM
Hey Bill, 

Click on the question mark icon in the lower right hand corner of the screen, and you'll have the option to "return to classic google maps" which has the terrain feature.

Not sure why the powers that be at google 'upgraded' the maps and removed functionality, not to mention making it completely non-intuitive.  If it aint broke...

Cheers,
Owen

When they first did this 'upgrade' there was an option for you to 'permanently' select the 'return to classic maps'.  I did that, but can't remember how.  Poke around and see if you can find it.  I use the route over terrain view all the time.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Howard R on January 12, 2015, 02:45:35 PM
One of the things I find most irritating about the new GM is the way they do printouts.  I have used the maps extensively for almost all my motorcycle trips, and I print out a "tank bag map pocket" size map so I can keep track of not only the route but where I am on it.  The new & "improved" version won't let me print the large, overview map any more.  It has a too-small overview with several sectional breakdown maps along the way.  Mostly useless on the motorcycle, as I am not willing to stop every hour to change out the map in my tank bag because I just ran off the edge.

For bmc, the way I have been saving maps is to just right click on the URL bar and choose "copy" then go paste it from the clipboard into a simple text editor.  (In my Linux system it's called Kate but pretty much any text editor will work.)  That way I can also add notes about good/bad things along the route, gas stops, etc.

Howard
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Lannis on January 12, 2015, 03:28:24 PM
I just like ... you know, I just sort of .... I mean, like, I just sort of "Go", know what I mean?   Like, get a map and go.   It has its occasional frustrations, but I don't have ANY of the frustrations mentioned here, and that's certainly some recompense.   Terrain, street view, satellites, versions, downloads, way-points, routings ... yuck.

Now sometimes, someone ELSE does the hard work and spends the money on the new software and the maps and such, and comes up with a good route that they enjoy and they send it to me and I'll tape it to the tank, I'd be silly to say "No" to that, and I appreciate it.   

Otherwise, it's "I think it's in THAT direction" and I get to explore!   "We're not lost; we're TOURING!"

Lannis
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Dean Rose on January 12, 2015, 03:39:56 PM
I just like ... you know, I just sort of .... I mean, like, I just sort of "Go", know what I mean?   Like, get a map and go.   It has its occasional frustrations, but I don't have ANY of the frustrations mentioned here, and that's certainly some recompense.   Terrain, street view, satellites, versions, downloads, way-points, routings ... yuck.

Now sometimes, someone ELSE does the hard work and spends the money on the new software and the maps and such, and comes up with a good route that they enjoy and they send it to me and I'll tape it to the tank, I'd be silly to say "No" to that, and I appreciate it.   

Otherwise, it's "I think it's in THAT direction" and I get to explore!   "We're not lost; we're TOURING!"

Lannis

Lannis, You and Wayne need to do a trip together.


Dean 
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Stormtruck2 on January 12, 2015, 04:10:28 PM
I'm never lost, cause everyone is always telling me where to go!!!!! ::) ;) :D
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Lannis on January 12, 2015, 05:09:15 PM
Lannis, You and Wayne need to do a trip together.


Dean 

I doubt seriously that I'd be able to keep up!   :D

Lannis
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 12, 2015, 05:45:06 PM
Google maps had me seriously lost in southern Indiana this fall, then put an address about 7 miles from where it really was. I used to like it.
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Crusty on January 12, 2015, 08:41:00 PM
There's a lot to be said for old fashioned paper maps.
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Mike Craven on January 12, 2015, 09:00:32 PM
Uh-oh... very close to Mom's house in Poughkeepsie.  I might have to stop by and visit.  Wouldn't want her to be reading this board and find out I didn't.
Mike
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: trippah on January 12, 2015, 09:08:01 PM
Years ago my wife and I went touristing in D.C.  Just past the center of the city we had to pull over so three fire trucks could blast by, sirens and lights calling.  I   took some odd not main streets heading towards Mass Ave N.E. and the rather fleabitten hotel we had picked from AAA book. Following the map I was able to find our hotel and was again forced to pull over for-yep, three fire engines with lights and sirens blasting.  And my says I get lost! ;D ;D

Yes,I did write the AAA and told them about the quality of the hotel and the rather skimpy attire of all those young gals hanging around.  Friendly group too, always coming up to me and asking if I wanted...hmm
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: dilligaf on January 12, 2015, 09:24:43 PM
There's a lot to be said for old fashioned paper maps.

Yep.  :BEER:
Matt
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Wayne Orwig on January 12, 2015, 10:04:32 PM
Lannis, You and Wayne need to do a trip together.

I found some new Android GPS software called "least direct route".
Great way to get lost, yet still end up where you want.  ;D
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Bill Hagan on January 13, 2015, 06:31:34 AM
I just like ... you know, I just sort of .... I mean, like, I just sort of "Go", know what I mean?   Like, get a map and go.   It has its occasional frustrations, but I don't have ANY of the frustrations mentioned here, and that's certainly some recompense.   Terrain, street view, satellites, versions, downloads, way-points, routings ... yuck.

Now sometimes, someone ELSE does the hard work and spends the money on the new software and the maps and such, and comes up with a good route that they enjoy and they send it to me and I'll tape it to the tank, I'd be silly to say "No" to that, and I appreciate it.   

Otherwise, it's "I think it's in THAT direction" and I get to explore!   "We're not lost; we're TOURING!"

Lannis

There's a lot to be said for old fashioned paper maps.


Lordy, you guys make me feel as if I might be a Cro-Magnon and not the Neanderthal I thought. 

I, too, like maps.  In fact, I'll stack my large and well-used collection of maps of states and locales against your own libraries anytime; suspect they are similar.  And, as do you, I think finding the road-less-traveled has great charm.

Comma but.

Until someone comes up with state or smallish regional maps that show back roads and topo features in appropriate, usable scale, well, I'll shamelessly use on-line mapping to determine the general axis of advance on trips to areas I have not visited enough to know -- literally -- the lay of the land. 

Maps are flat; America isn't.  OK, OK, there is a reason some are called the Flat States.   ;)  And, I like to follow ridge and valley roads, with the former often providing grand vistas, the latter giving beautiful creekside runs, and both serving up curve after curve after delicious curve.

Feel free to stumble upon those; I'd rather play the odds and find them on line.  Google "terrain" does that, at least in my now-saved "classic maps" version. [Thanks, Patrick.]

And, unlike the ADV discussions The Mayor mentions, the classic GM does not need knowledge of "full-on NASA telemetry in Greek."   ::)

I have an adequate m/c GPS, and mostly use it for "go home" when I need to tell Kathi something more accurate than my "Moto Guzzi Standard Time" estimate of return.  But having some idea on a long trip of a preplanned -- but not chiseled in concrete or blacktop (or, for Wayne, gravel  :D) -- appealing route is, IMO, just plain better. 

OK, company's coming today ... off to have my hurried housecleaning supervised and inspected.   :wife: :D

Tonight, I'll get out the maps again, paper and virtual.  I may even try to find out what the roads look like around Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil.   ;D

Bill
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Aaron D. on January 13, 2015, 06:49:42 AM
Bill,
I respectfully submit leaving behind the evil doohickeys, and navigate by the sun. I'm not joking-look at a map, and just follow roads that take you in the right direction. Or just ride on the small lines on your map.

Having some machine do it for you just seems wrong.

If you get lost, I live about 65 miles from the rally site and I know the area well. Plus we have camping room.
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: dilligaf on January 13, 2015, 07:26:19 AM
What Aaron said. State maps, even those supplied by AAA work well enough.  Pick a county or state road that sort of goes in the direction you want to go and go.  If the road you picked today isn't to your likening there is always tomorrow. Should you need to make up some time an interstate is seldom more than 20-30 miles away.  That's where the GPS becomes a handy tool.  That and locating a motel or a place to camp for the night.

Going north through central Pennsylvania PA-26 to State Collage where you pick up PA-144 and then NE when you get to NY is out of the way but a surprisingly good ride.  If you are camping, the facilities at PA State Parks are some of the best I have used.   :BEER:
Matt
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Cheese on January 13, 2015, 07:34:04 AM
Well Bill, I'd suggest 2 things for your trip. One might be NY30 or NY10 at least part way through the Catskills. Another would take you through southern Vermont to Windsor, home of the American Precision Museum.

http://www.americanprecision.org/

Peter
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 13, 2015, 09:34:10 AM
Quote
and navigate by the sun.

I headed out to Mid Ohio one time using that method. It started getting cloudy in eastern Indiana, but I thought, "what the hey, It's not like this is the first time I've ever been to Mid Ohio, I'll just strike out in the general direction on these little back roads. About an hour and a half later, I finally found where I was. About 20 miles from where I started.. ;D
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Gliderjohn on January 13, 2015, 11:20:37 AM
The new google maps moved my house about a quarter of a mile. According to the new map my house is now in the middle of a soybean field. My farmer is not going to like to have to work around it. ;D
GliderJohn
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 13, 2015, 12:39:52 PM
The new google maps moved my house about a quarter of a mile. According to the new map my house is now in the middle of a soybean field. My farmer is not going to like to have to work around it. ;D
GliderJohn

I can see 1/4 mile, but 7 miles?? I just don't trust Google maps any longer..
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on January 13, 2015, 02:13:07 PM
I headed out to Mid Ohio one time using that method. It started getting cloudy in eastern Indiana, but I thought, "what the hey, It's not like this is the first time I've ever been to Mid Ohio, I'll just strike out in the general direction on these little back roads. About an hour and a half later, I finally found where I was. About 20 miles from where I started.. ;D

This is what happens to me when I get in the steep & twisties in WNC
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: johnr on January 13, 2015, 06:19:32 PM
What about 'Moto Where'? Does it work with the downgraded Google Maps now?
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: GuzziPilot on January 14, 2015, 07:22:46 PM
Been digging into this.  Would appear the "desktop" Google is now incapable of routing with the terrain/topo layer, as indicated here:

https://productforums.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/maps/iS_jIXIpwW0 (https://productforums.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/maps/iS_jIXIpwW0)

But....I pulled up terrain on my Nexus tablet Google maps, input a start/finish route and Bam!  No issue except for the expedited (most direct) routing.  So....fired up my netbook, tried same......no go.

Now looking into external GPS receiver/antenna combo for my tablet, coupled with live or offline terrain/topo mapping App as a full solution.  Will advise...

Lee

<On Edit>

This link better explains how I want to use my tablet as my GPS navigator.  I do have dedicated GPS's, but they're older, and the GUI is cumbersome at best, and much smaller screen.  Onward to the next corner of complexity during my rides :wife:

http://www.webbikeworld.com/gps/nexus-7-gps/using-a-tablet-as-a-gps.htm (http://www.webbikeworld.com/gps/nexus-7-gps/using-a-tablet-as-a-gps.htm)
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Aaron D. on January 14, 2015, 08:57:05 PM
You can follow someone. That will work.
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Wayne Orwig on January 14, 2015, 10:27:49 PM
Bill, I doubt this will help, but it may help others a lot.

Download the program called ITNconverter. A Google search will find it. That program was originally intended to convert routing file formats. Basically, convert Garmin to Google to Tom Tom to ........ But they added route editing features, and eventually route creation features. It allows you to create routes using a number of maps, roads, terrain, satellite, etc. Then you can export the routes to KML to sent to Google to share, or GPX for your Garmin, or whatever. It is so easy, it is worth looking into. But it may be lacking in POI features that you want, or something.
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Bill Hagan on January 15, 2015, 08:45:12 AM
Bill, I doubt this will help, but it may help others a lot.

****


Wayne, I have referred your comment to a law firm to see if it's actionable.     ;D

OTOH, truth is a defense to defamation; you are right, as I haven't a clue how to do that ITNconverter thing ... but I will try.  ;)

Thanks, btw, to the suggestions of others for routes and for things to do and see.  

Does seem as if there is niche to filled.  Not sure how profitable that might be, but I'd plunk down some lira for a serious, web-based, topographical trip planner.  In the meantime, I'll look for that ITNconverter and see if I can make it do tricks.

Bill


Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Lannis on January 15, 2015, 10:53:30 AM
Still prefer the "stop and ask a local" method of finding good roads . They are usually clueless , but at least it is fun to watch the gears whirring in their heads while figuring out the best route to a location not 20 miles from where they have spent all of their lives  ;D

  Dusty

This phenomenon never ceases to amaze me, although I ought to be used to it by now.   

I enjoy looking for reasons to start a conversation with a local person when I'm traveling by bike, but I'm constantly appalled by the ignorance of people about the places they live.

I'm guessing there's a couple reasons:

1) Most people "aren't like us" motorcyclists.   They don't get on the road for the sake of being on the road because it's fun; it's just a chore to them and they know no more about the geography of their home town or county than they HAVE to know to get to work and to the WalMart.   Me, when I go to a new area to work or live, the FIRST thing I do is get on the bike and figure out what's where.

2) People move around so much these days.   Even in a little West Virginia town, many of the people you see there aren't native to the area, and so don't have any idea about where places are.

3) And for the people who HAVE lived in their town a long time, they don't realize that everyone in the world doesn't live just down the road from them.   "Jim's Garage?  Sure, son, you go down a ways to where Pawpaw lived, turn right, then go to where John Harris' barn burned down back in '54 and then take the next left and go a ways and there it is ...."

I'd like to blame the advent of GPS, but this has been going on way before there was any such thing .... !

Lannis
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: oldbike54 on January 15, 2015, 11:16:34 AM
Lannis ,

Then there are the different terminologies used around the country . Once asked a gentleman in extreme rural N.W. North Dakota how to find a certain farm . "Well , go down this road till you pass over two big coolies , then at the second carpass take a left , when you see an old dugout start looking for a stoney , it will be the next driveway"  ???
Needless to say , that required some translation  :D

  Dusty
Title: Re: The Road to Swanzey: Frustrations with Google Maps
Post by: Bill Hagan on January 15, 2015, 11:37:06 AM
Bill, I doubt this will help, but it may help others a lot.

Download the program called ITNconverter. A Google search will find it. That program was originally intended to convert routing file formats. Basically, convert Garmin to Google to Tom Tom to ........ But they added route editing features, and eventually route creation features. It allows you to create routes using a number of maps, roads, terrain, satellite, etc. Then you can export the routes to KML to sent to Google to share, or GPX for your Garmin, or whatever. It is so easy, it is worth looking into. But it may be lacking in POI features that you want, or something.

Wayne, I have referred your comment to a law firm to see if it's actionable.     ;D

OTOH, truth is a defense to defamation; you are right, as I haven't a clue how to do that ITNconverter thing ... but I will try.  ;)


Thanks, btw, to the suggestions of others for routes and for things to do and see. 

Does seem as if there is niche to filled.  Not sure how profitable that might be, but I'd plunk down some lira for a serious, web-based, topographical trip planner.  In the meantime, I'll look for that ITNconverter and see if I can make it do tricks.

Bill





Ah, I now see you weren't insulting me -- well, at least not in the way I thought, i.e., as IT incompetent, which, of course, is true enough  ::) -- but telling me this tool was not available for Appleites.

But, you also right in that it does look useful for any PC folks who like to play with routes on virtual maps.

Bill