Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vasco DG on January 15, 2015, 01:59:46 AM

Title: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Vasco DG on January 15, 2015, 01:59:46 AM
Came back from Sydney this afternoon and noticed a bit pf extra vibration on the over-run. Took out ear plugs and she's HOWLING! I recon the pinion nut has come undone, it's the same in every gear. Have nut and washer in stock and multiple spares.

We'll see tomorrow.

Pete
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Phang on January 15, 2015, 02:10:59 AM
This should be the first major issue of your Griso Verde.

Will hang around for updates  ;D
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Vasco DG on January 15, 2015, 02:21:30 AM
I was thinking a few weeks ago that perhaps I should loctite it. Then I decided I couldn't be arsed! :D

Pete
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Waterbottle on January 15, 2015, 02:48:13 AM
I was thinking a few weeks ago that perhaps I should loctite it. Then I decided I couldn't be arsed! :D

Pete

Hmmmm, maybe I should be  :D   At least you've a few spares at your disposal Pete.
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Waterbottle on January 15, 2015, 02:54:20 AM
Hey...... Doesn't this belong in "Those crappy Griso's " ?  :D
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Vasco DG on January 15, 2015, 02:54:58 AM
They turn up on fleabay regularly. Not really a serious problem any more. I just hate the downtime!

Pete
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Phang on January 15, 2015, 03:20:37 AM
Probably a good idea to put a few drops of wicking grade threadlocker on the locknut the next time when the CARC is removed.

(https://www.suncoasttools.com/images/Vendlogos/VibraTite/WickingGrade.jpg)
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: balvenie on January 15, 2015, 03:23:49 AM
             Hang the customers. Fix your own bike first. Nothing else matters ;D
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Vasco DG on January 15, 2015, 03:29:23 AM
Got another V7 to PD and I'm waiting on parts for the dead Stelvio. Apart from that my schedule has services and simple stuff. I got lots of time to fix my own shit! ;D

Pete
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: John A on January 15, 2015, 05:09:59 AM
A mechanic has a very good idea of what limit he can run his equipment to so sometimes his own stuff gets run to the ragged edge. Just something I observed, mostly with myself.
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Vasco DG on January 15, 2015, 05:28:45 AM
Not really that John. The issue is they no longer solid space the bearings for preload. Therefore the nut is only tightened to some weeny amount and relies on the stinkin' tab washer to maintain nut location and therefore preload. Slightly insufficient preload, wear or even a sudden shock can reduce the preload or shear the tab on the lockwasher. I'm wondering idly if there is enough thread for a second washer to lock the first one? Either that or simply solid space the pinion bearings and crank the nut down to a zillion mile tonnes.

Thing is when something like this occurs it is sudden and unpredictable, while my bikes are all generally scruffy they are over-serviced and maintained.

There again it could be the gearbox, but I really doubt it!

Pete
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: beetle on January 15, 2015, 05:58:37 AM
Quote from: Vasco DG
crank the nut down to a zillion mile tonnes.

I'd like to see that torque wrench!   :o
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Guzzistajohn on January 15, 2015, 06:24:59 AM
Make sure you get the metric locktite
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Sasquatch Jim on January 15, 2015, 06:32:31 AM
Make sure you get the metric locktite

 Do they make locktite for left hand threads?
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: father guzzi obrian on January 15, 2015, 08:36:04 AM
Loctite is neitherdextrous, to use it on left hand threads, it must be applied holding the bottle with the left hand, I don't know why folks don't read the directions........
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: ken farr on January 15, 2015, 11:14:16 AM
Loctite is neitherdextrous, to use it on left hand threads, it must be applied holding the bottle with the left hand, I don't know why folks don't read the directions........


 ;D


kjf
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: twhitaker on January 15, 2015, 11:26:45 AM
Isn't there a specific type of Loctite for upside down applications ? ::)

  Dusty

It has upsidasium mixed in with it to get proper flow.
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: trippah on January 15, 2015, 11:41:19 AM
I thought it required the antigrav guzziespezialtool the parts dept. will sell you for only five hundred USD. 
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: rboe on January 15, 2015, 02:38:32 PM
I can never remember which Loctite to use come winter so I toss in the towel and get the All Season Loctite.  :pop
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Vasco DG on January 15, 2015, 04:14:29 PM
Yup. Rooted!

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7511/16102887869_1a33fda24e_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/16102887869/)

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8651/15666612754_f83fbc2198_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/44512000@N00/15666612754/)

Pete
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: rodekyll on January 15, 2015, 05:41:27 PM
I can never remember which Loctite to use come winter so I toss in the towel and get the All Season Loctite.  :pop

Studded or walnut shell?



Pete -- the washer looks a mess.  Does this failure damage the transmission, or is it a simple replace-and-stake?
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 15, 2015, 06:47:18 PM
This bothers me more than a little.. :(
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Lannis on January 15, 2015, 06:50:36 PM
This bothers me more than a little.. :(

And I'll bet I have one of those on my Stelvio, too.
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on January 15, 2015, 07:01:17 PM
simply solid space the pinion bearings and crank the nut down to a zillion mile tonnes.

Pete

This

Proven method

Surely the price of a spacer wouldn't be an issue to Piaggio, is it same thread as old dunger pinions ? That nut is completely foolproof, like one on back of gearbox, just punch it to lock on splines.
I've just converted my 67 final drive to run in Tonti, this is proper deja vu for Guzzi
The 67 did have preload spacer but had silly peg nut and tab washer, not sure when they discovered the locking nut but wasn't long after
My "new" 67 box, I've never tried an 8/37 before, had to do it, at least I know the nut won't come loose and look at the splines, genuine 5000 miles!!!!
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/67db1.jpg)
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: CalVin2007 on January 15, 2015, 07:24:43 PM
This bothers me more than a little.. :(

   Me too. Incredible what a company will try when time-proven (and common sense as well!) methods have been used for, well for as long as I can remember! Solid spacers for setting preload between tapered roller bearings is such a standard method that it's almost unthinkable to even attempt what Guzzi has done here. Shame on them.

   Terry
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Vasco DG on January 15, 2015, 07:52:42 PM
All fixed. The CW&P actually looked fine but since I have several basically new ones I just pulled the bridge out of one of those and used it. I did take the precaution of taking the nut and lockwasher off and loctiting the bejasus out of it.

I agree that not using solid spacer is dumb but it is CHEAP and everybody always loves cheap. I'm considering cannibalising another one and solid spacing it. No reason you can't.

I've seen two cases of this in ten years. I saw at least as many other bevelbox failures over the years with other designs. I knew that people would shriek. Perhaps I should just not bother?

Pete
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Vasco DG on January 15, 2015, 10:02:52 PM

(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/67db1.jpg)

That is a very pretty thing Martin. Have you run one of the earlier 'Pumpkin' boxes with a later, higher powered, motor than the original V7? I seem to remember that there were issues with them cracking in higher load situations. Not claiming it to be fact but Charlie might know.

Pete
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Vasco DG on January 15, 2015, 11:03:35 PM
Just sent this to 'Waterbottle' but it might as well go up here in case anybody wants to take preventative action. Ignore the bit about borrowing tools. I've met Don, he's a good egg. I don't lend out tools usually, they have a habit of not coming back.

If you decide to do this there are a few things you'll need.

One of those tools for applying the clamps for CV boots on car axles.

Clamps for same.

Special tool which I can lend you.

Threebond 1211 or similar.

30 Tonne press.

My guess is you have most of that apart from the special tool, which is manufacturable but why bother if you want to borrow mine.

Sequence is basically undo the clamp that holds the top boot to the case. Remove the plate on the front that secures the front boot.

Remove the bolts holding the cases together.

Heat the outside, RH, case of theCARC with a heat gun or butane torch around the bearing. Pry case apart at pry points and then heat some more and lift off RH case.

Support case so you can press on the centre of the crownwheel on the wheel side and push the entire bridge out of the bearing in the LH case.

Remove clamp that holds front boot to the seal holder, remove boot and the plastic ring thing that protects the boot.

Clamp crownwheel in soft jaws in dirty great f*ck-off vice. Bust Choofer Valve with long breaker bar undoing seal carrier after removing 'G' clip. (It helps if you warm the outer edge of the bridge surrounding the seal holder with a butane torch.).

That will give you access to the poxy peg nut. Bend down tab on lock washer and loosen peg nut.

Clean thoroughly and apply small amount of red Loctite to threads, re-install new lockwasher and peg nut and tighten to either where it was before or 50 inch pounds. Bend up lock washer tab.

Install new seal in seal holder.. Reinstall seal holder and tighten up until you fart using FB breaker bar. Check pinion backlash.

Reinstall the front boot and plastic ring and use the CV boot clamp tool and clamp to tighten down the clamp. Cut off excess clamp.

Grease seal lip in LH case and use press to press crownwheel back into case taking care that both top and front boot don't hang up and get damaged.

Apply thin layer of threebond to mating face of case. Invert LH case on press and use press to push RH case down on to LH case over bearing taking care that dowels align etc.

Take CARC out of press and bolt halves back together (8mm into alloy? 22 ft/lbs from memory?)

Secure front boot with plate and shitty self tapping screws, (It doesn't harm to use a bit of threebond around the boot.)

Use long CV boot clamp on top boot, double the clamp around and tighten using tool. Cut off excess clamp.

Re-fit to bike, fill with oil, replace wheel, brake and stuff.

Go out for ride and marvel at your wonderfulness! :D

Pete
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Sasquatch Jim on January 15, 2015, 11:21:24 PM
  Upside down locktite can only be purchased in Australia and New Zealand.
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on January 16, 2015, 12:32:50 AM
That is a very pretty thing Martin. Have you run one of the earlier 'Pumpkin' boxes with a later, higher powered, motor than the original V7? I seem to remember that there were issues with them cracking in higher load situations. Not claiming it to be fact but Charlie might know.

Pete
Sorry to threadjack (i'd def fit solid spacer & proper locknut)

Unusual for me but pretty is the main reason, that and confuse the train spotters who really try to identify my bike,
no I haven't ever had one before but the factory endurance racer V7 Sport had one back in the day without mishap AFAIK, never going to push that hard on the road
I did fit later bearing carrier with bigger bearings and I modded the casting for oilways (feed and return) as on all later boxes

Std was good enough for Jack
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAwWDc1MA==/z/ZlAAAOxygj5SdhrR/$(KGrHqF,!n0FJ)!cYJrYBSdhrQUQ0w~~60_12.JPG)
And Mike
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzUzWDEwMDU=/z/BuwAAOxyBvZTUmSr/$_57.JPG)

And I'm now a slow old git, will watch for leaks of course, has viton seals O rings at pinion etc, only oil level remains to be decided, will try 250cc first (factory quoted 300 then 230)
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on January 16, 2015, 01:45:44 AM
All fixed. The CW&P actually looked fine but since I have several basically new ones I just pulled the bridge out of one of those and used it. I did take the precaution of taking the nut and lockwasher off and loctiting the bejasus out of it.

I agree that not using solid spacer is dumb but it is CHEAP and everybody always loves cheap. I'm considering cannibalising another one and solid spacing it. No reason you can't.

I've seen two cases of this in ten years. I saw at least as many other bevelbox failures over the years with other designs. I knew that people would shriek. Perhaps I should just not bother?

Pete
Back OT after watching Dakar on SBS-- Go Toby, unbelievable first Dakar, boy will go far
Definitely should have posted, shriek or not, this stuff is good info for long term owners
Solid spacer would add SFA to price of bike, it's not sold as bargain basement toy is it ?
But a few minutes are needed to get it right, for anyone interested, this is probably the saving

Ol dungers, even my 67, are shimmed as well as solid spacered, spacer a little short, add shims till perfect.
Dunger shims "might" fit but not hard to buy shims in any ID.
I "think" dunger locknut will fit too, they have the parts just not the time, world has changed. Once they paid tradesmen to build bikes, now it's a robot, they need another one to finish the carc but cheap tab washer won the vote.
Precision for exact sized spacer would be lovely, I wonder if BMW have done that ?

Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 16, 2015, 06:56:07 AM
Quote
Definitely should have posted, shriek or not, this stuff is good info for long term owners

Absolutely. It still bothers me, though. It's just not good engineering practice.
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Dick on January 16, 2015, 08:46:53 AM
By the view of the  stacking of the outer races, it doesn't appear there's any room between bearings to accept a spacer. It might be possible to squeeze a shim between the inner races, though??

http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/carc/carc4.jpg (http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/carc/carc4.jpg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Moto_Guzzi_-_CARC_system.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Moto_Guzzi_-_CARC_system.jpg)
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Phang on January 16, 2015, 08:56:57 AM
I posted this section diagram in a Griso forum, looks like there is a little space between the inner races.

According to Pete, there is a torque collapsible wavy washer in between the inner races.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/carc100_zps6d44bd73.jpg)
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Dick on January 16, 2015, 09:10:59 AM
Ahh, so a shim should be doable. Now you would assume the factory has some specified torque/preload applied to those bearings,like tapered rollers used in some car wheels. I guess you'd want to add that into the equation when deciding on a shim.
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 16, 2015, 09:13:05 AM
That is a very pretty thing Martin. Have you run one of the earlier 'Pumpkin' boxes with a later, higher powered, motor than the original V7? I seem to remember that there were issues with them cracking in higher load situations. Not claiming it to be fact but Charlie might know.


And I'm now a slow old git, will watch for leaks of course, has viton seals O rings at pinion etc, only oil level remains to be decided, will try 250cc first (factory quoted 300 then 230)


No issue with cracking that I'm aware of. I'm sure someone somewhere has managed to bust one open, though.

The factory recommended oil volume for the "starburst" rear drive was always 180 cc (160 cc gear oil, 20 cc moly) and never changed. The volume went up to 360 cc for the "deep sump" rear drive that followed and dropped back to 250 cc for the rear drive common to Tontis from the Convert on.
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Phang on January 16, 2015, 09:19:32 AM
Ahh, so a shim should be doable. Now you would assume the factory has some specified torque/preload applied to those bearings,like tapered rollers used in some car wheels. I guess you'd want to add that into the equation when deciding on a shim.

Here's the complete diagram of the one I posted above.

The peg nut of the pinion is torque to 170Nm

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/carc110_zpsf8d036d9.jpg)
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: mikeproctor on January 16, 2015, 11:19:15 AM
<snip> I knew that people would shriek. Perhaps I should just not bother?

Pete

I don't even have a motorcycle right now and articles like this are the reason I stay on this site!
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Cheese on January 16, 2015, 11:37:59 AM
That's the first I've seen the peg-nut torque value. I'm not saying it aint so, but where did you find it?
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Phang on January 16, 2015, 12:11:52 PM
I found it in 1100 Breva/Griso workshop manual. the 8V CARC models workshop manual have this page omitted for unknown reason.

I'll take the torque specs with a pinch of salt, until someone verified it.

I am quite sure you will pull some threads if you torque that CARC filler plug to 35Nm and the breather to 30Nm as shown in the diagram  ;D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/carc120_zps9d606516.jpg)
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Vasco DG on January 16, 2015, 12:28:34 PM
Phang, 170Nm is definitely NOT the torque for the peg nut. Use that and all you'll have is a locked up pinion. While the diagram may indicate that the figure of 170Nm actually applies to the seal holding collar, (Hence the need for the long breaker bar and heat to get the bugger undone.) there is no specified toque for the nut because the unit is 'Non Serviceable' remember! Why would they give a torque figure for something that supposedly has 'Magic' properties? ::)

Chuck, as far as engineering practice goes this is now common practice in many car differentials. Nissan Navaras, (Dunno if you get the Navara? Think pick 'em up truck 4x4.) used a very similar system in their differentials for setting pinion nut preload. It was abandoned I believe after about 3 years as Australian dirt roads were causing the pinion nuts to loose preload and flog the diffs out. I'm not suggesting it's good but it is commonplace and it all comes down to assembly times.

It's also interesting to note that there is no facility for changing crownwheel depth. There are usually written notations on the bridge casting which one presumes have some relevance to setting pinion depth with the under bearing shim on the pinion but the crownwheel itself is a non adjustable item. The only assumption I can make is that machining accuracy has meant that combined with the huge tooth face makes it possible to jig up each gear set, match it to a bridge and then assemble it with an acceptable margin of accuracy.

Pete
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Phang on January 16, 2015, 12:36:35 PM
there is no specified toque for the nut because the unit is 'Non Serviceable' remember! Why would they give a torque figure for something that supposedly has 'Magic' properties? ::)
Pete

A fresh mind in the morning is obviously sharper than the one at 2am  ;-T
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Vasco DG on January 16, 2015, 01:59:10 PM
By the view of the  stacking of the outer races, it doesn't appear there's any room between bearings to accept a spacer. It might be possible to squeeze a shim between the inner races, though??


Certainly any spacer won't be large, only the depth of the crush washer. That in itself is an issue. One would assume that it could be replaced with a similar flat washer. The fact that it is only going to be three or four mm deep is something I had been thinking about because the pinion itself has a cross drilling, one presumes to allow oil to move around and escape from between the bearings. Puting a spacer in there would occlude this and I don't know how vital it is. My guess would be not very. I can't see it as being a gallery for delivery of oil as the fluid would have to come up the centre of the pinion and the tip of that sits in one of the *Driest* areas in the box in service. If it does have to be cross drilled though there is very little *Meat* there to allow it. It would have to be a jewlers drill size hole to not compromise the integrity of the spacer.

Pete
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Don G on January 16, 2015, 02:22:02 PM
Why not use a crush sleeve like the automotive industry? Tighten until the proper preload is acheived, works splendid. It does take a bit to get the sleeve started to crush then gets easy. not rocket science by no means.  ;-T DonG
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: acogoff on January 16, 2015, 03:29:07 PM
     I would think a person could temporarily glue a couple of pieces of lead shot into the area of interest(between the cones) and thighten untill it feels about right and them disassemble and measure said shot to get you an idea of the shim thickness you are going for as a starting point.
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Vasco DG on January 16, 2015, 03:55:45 PM
Why not use a crush sleeve like the automotive industry? Tighten until the proper preload is acheived, works splendid. It does take a bit to get the sleeve started to crush then gets easy. not rocket science by no means.  ;-T DonG


The wavy washer between the outer races performs the same task.

Pete
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Don G on January 16, 2015, 04:37:48 PM
I see, no room. Shim until its correct then i guess.  DonG
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: johnr on January 16, 2015, 06:25:40 PM
A "non serviceable" part! Yea Gods!
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: Vasco DG on January 17, 2015, 02:20:21 AM
Yes, complete shit. But I got sent one, one that I may of rebuilt but I wasn't made privy to that information, by a supposed 'Guru' locally last week after he found a bit of frag on the drain plug. Simply pulling the seal and looking at the clamps showed it had been gone through and re-bearinged at some point but when I pointed this out I got a litany of woe about anything and everything 'Modern'.

That's fine. I just can't understand why I have as few problems as I do if they are such a shitbox?

If you want a story of a TRUE headache I'll post details when Mark and I fix it. This one is a screaming two-holer that has been giving us, me particularly, kittens for months! It's only am aching though. We'll get there, and it has become a sort of 'Pro Bono' job!

Pete
Title: Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
Post by: beetle on January 17, 2015, 03:19:36 AM
Be afraid, be very afraid..

The 1200 Sport From Hell



......film at eleven...