Author Topic: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery  (Read 8580 times)

Ken

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Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« on: January 10, 2015, 05:40:30 PM »
Stator went bad. replaced. Then charge light on/off intermittently but regulating at 14.3 volts. Didn't want to chance smoking the new stator so replaced the Electrex RR51 regulator with a new ElectroSport ESR510 from Regulatorrectifier dot com. This regulator is regulating at 14.8 volts.

The only electrical difference between the two regulators was the black sense wire did not exist on the Electrex model but does exist on the new ElectroSport model.
I believe this sense comes from the headlamp circuit.

 I feel that 14.8 volts is pushing the envelope.  How about some of the Guzzi experts here?
How could I reduce this to say 14.5 or should I leave it alone?


Info: 1998 EV.
Have #12 wires all the way back to battery, ground and hot. I'm reasonably sure it is not a poor ground.
Use XT150 (150 amp continuous) from regulator to battery and 30 amp continuous to stator. Overkill I admit but Guzzi's electrical system is not rated the best. 
 

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2015, 05:57:21 PM »
You're an ex Beemer guy, right?  ;D  :BEER:
<running and ducking>
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2015, 06:06:39 PM »
A diode capable of carrying the charge current, with proper heat sinking, put between the regulator output and the battery would drop around 0.6V, getting you down to 14.2. 

But is it possible that your 14.8 reading was at a time when the regulator was very cold?  Lead acid batteries need higher charge voltages as the temperature goes down, and most regulators are designed to do this.
When the Brussels sprout fails to venture from its lair, it is time to roll a beaver up a grassy slope.

Ken

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2015, 06:22:09 PM »
Temperature was about 50. I didn't know these were temperature compensated! It's hard to get information on these.

To Chuck,,, nope, never owned a Beemer.


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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2015, 06:22:09 PM »

Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2015, 06:32:04 PM »
I don't know for sure yours is temperature compensated, just that many/most electronic regulators are.  But 50F isn't very cold, so I wouldn't expect a lot of compensation anyway.  It might be worth a call to a tech support guy to see if it's within the range it's supposed to be in.  At 14.8V, it would be a better idea than usual to check the electrolyte level regularly.
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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2015, 06:40:04 PM »
A diode capable of carrying the charge current, with proper heat sinking, put between the regulator output and the battery would drop around 0.6V, getting you down to 14.2. 

No. Since the regulator has a sense line on the battery/ignition side, it will just up the output to compensate for it.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2015, 06:43:36 PM »
Stator went bad. replaced. Then charge light on/off intermittently but regulating at 14.3 volts. Didn't want to chance smoking the new stator so replaced the Electrex RR51 regulator with a new ElectroSport ESR510 from Regulatorrectifier dot com. This regulator is regulating at 14.8 volts.

The only electrical difference between the two regulators was the black sense wire did not exist on the Electrex model but does exist on the new ElectroSport model.
I believe this sense comes from the headlamp circuit.


What is the voltage at the sense wire? If you have a poor path there, that voltage will be too low and the regulator output will go up to compensate.

Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2015, 08:14:38 PM »
No. Since the regulator has a sense line on the battery/ignition side, it will just up the output to compensate for it.

I see your point, I'm not used to regulators with separate sense wires.  But it seems like one could connect the sense wire to the regulator output to make it behave like one without a sense wire, and then if the output were high, a diode connected after the sense wire could be used to drop it a little.
When the Brussels sprout fails to venture from its lair, it is time to roll a beaver up a grassy slope.

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2015, 08:30:28 PM »
The Electrosport ESR 510 uses the +/- output wires to sense the Battery
I don't think it's a good idea to extend those wires but you can extend the Yellow input wires as far as you like.
I have my regulator mounted under the tank close to the battery, the yellow wires are extended, so-far it's ok.


http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/fitting-instructions/electrosport-esr510-fitting-instructions.pdf
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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2015, 08:39:43 PM »
I see your point, I'm not used to regulators with separate sense wires.  But it seems like one could connect the sense wire to the regulator output to make it behave like one without a sense wire, and then if the output were high, a diode connected after the sense wire could be used to drop it a little.

Some regulator sense lines draw a good bit of power. If you connect them to the regulator output, you would be tying it directly to the battery and running the battery dead when off. So they power them from a line that is switched.

I have seen people put in a relay with a contact to connect the sense line to the battery, and lower the regulator output.

Or in the case of this alternator, add a set of 55 watt driving lights, that will keep the voltage down.  :BEER:
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Ken

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2015, 09:01:12 PM »
Wondering why Guzzi set this up like this. According to the schematic the sense comes off the headlamp relay N/O contact. Back tracing....  it goes through a fuse, then the ignition switch (in run position), thru the ignition switch connector, then another Molex connector, through another fuse and finally to the battery. LOL.

I would think the voltage drop across the headlamp would cause it to always be lower than actual battery voltage. This might tend to keep the reg. at full output. Don't know. Maybe there was some condition in the OEM regulator that required this.  

To Roy: You said: "The ESR510 uses the +/- output wires to sense battery"  

The Unit I have has 6 wires. 2 yellow to stator. 1 red to battery. 1 green to ground. 1 white for charge light and 1 black marked sense.

Which +/- are you referring to? I will assume the Red and Green. If I am assuming correctly then what is the black sense wire?  Does it serve a purpose I am unaware of. I do not mean this sarcastically.
Did you experience the same high output problem?

To Jim: I will check the voltage at the sense line when the monsoons stop. Maybe a relay straight from the battery to the sense will work better than sticking the sense line in the headlamp circuit like Guzzi did.


Online Murray

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2015, 09:29:37 PM »
Clean all the earths make sure there is no potential difference between the reg case and the battery.

Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2015, 11:13:36 PM »
I would think the voltage drop across the headlamp would cause it to always be lower than actual battery voltage. This might tend to keep the reg. at full output.

It would certainly try to keep the headlight at the setpoint (14.2 or so?)  For any power supply or regulator that has a sense wire, that wire should be connected to the thing that needs the accurate regulated voltage.  If you connect it to the headlight supply, for example, the regulator will do its best to keep the headlight voltage at the setpoint.  But the battery is probably the thing that's most sensitive to the charge voltage, so you'd think that the sense wire should be connected to its positive terminal, or near it.

I'm not sure I understand why any vehicle regulator needs to have a separate sense wire.  It seems like an unnecessary feature.  Maybe that's why the schematic in the link that Kiwi_Roy posted doesn't show a sense wire for the current model ESR510.
When the Brussels sprout fails to venture from its lair, it is time to roll a beaver up a grassy slope.

Ken

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2015, 11:43:08 PM »
Jim your right. I also looked at the pic Kiwi posted. Then I went to ElectroSport.com and looked at their pics. They too do NOT show a Sense wire on the ESR510. Only the 515 has the sense wire. The unit I received looks just like the 510 Pics EXCEPT it has the black wire too. The White and Black wire and connector looks just like the 515 (OEM Style) pic. Kiwi probably thinks I'm nutzo  ;D

Checked the box it came in... Sure enough ESR510. Heck, I don't know  ???

I sent a email to them asking why the difference. Prolly won't hear from them until Monday.

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2015, 05:15:43 AM »
 Does the alternator in question have a permanent magnet rotor or a externally excited rotor (brushes)?
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2015, 06:28:57 AM »
Well, normally, high voltage from the regulator is just a bad ground, but you said you have that  covered. <shrug> I dunno.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

dilligaf

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2015, 07:05:57 AM »
Well, normally, high voltage from the regulator is just a bad ground, but you said you have that  covered. <shrug> I dunno.

OR a bad regulator.  Not new out of the box but the electronic regulators that have failed on me have been "full on" so to speak blowing headlight bulbs and destroying the battery.  The old mechanical ones seemed to always fail in the "off" and the battery went flat  :BEER:
Matt

redrider

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2015, 07:29:29 AM »
A fully charged Lead Acid battery will read 2.34 volts per cell. 6 cells equal 14.04 VDC. Although battery systems are thought of as 12 volt, they are actually 14 volt. Military aircraft use two batteries in series and are part of the 28vdc power circuit. If your system only supplied 12 volts, the battery would quickly expire. A dead cell still has 2 vdc of potential energy and six would be 12 vdc.

I learned a lot about charging and batteries working as a battery tech in the fork lift field. I know of one forklift surplussed from the USAF with the original 48 volt battery still going after 20 years. Nothing but by the book service and maintenance.

Online Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2015, 08:09:07 AM »
It seems there are several variations of ESR510, mine doesn't have a sense wire or a fuse.


What is the voltage at the sense wire? If you have a poor path there, that voltage will be too low and the regulator output will go up to compensate.




Ken, do you have the Sense wire connected to the male/female plug from the bikes loom, if so the red/black wire is tapped off between the headlight relay and the headlight. The Voltage there is about 1/2 a Volt lower than the battery which would explain your high battery Voltage. The OEM Ducati Inergia regulator is set to control that point at around 13.8 Volts so the battery ends up at about 13.8 + 0.5 = 14.3.
A little test you can do is measure the Voltage drop between battery+ and the red/black reference socket (male female pair), wiggle the headlight relay a bit and re-measure, I was surprised how much it changed. Extra lights of course make it worse, not a very good design IMHO

Try connecting the sense wire directly to the battery, if that corrects the Voltage it may be all you need.

The sense circuit always draws a small current, < 10 mA I think for the ESR510 (like mine without sense wire), it will eventually drain the battery  (after ~ 1,000 hours). If you use the bike once a week or so it's not an issue, I disconnect mine over the winter but there are several other ways to fix it.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 08:49:19 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Moto Fugazzi

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2015, 10:43:35 AM »
You may want to send your ESR510 back to Electrosport for testing. I bought one a few years ago, and it was the older version, so it didn't work properly on my V11S (they said it was discontinued years prior to them sending it to me). My replacement ESR510 left me stranded for a short bit after the fuse holder melted (idiot light didn't go on). I found out if the ESR regulator goes bad, the battery idiot light doesn't go on.

Either I've had really bad luck, or Electrosport quality is starting to slip. Unlike Kiwi Roy, I extended my battery wires (12 gauge) instead of putting the emulator closer and extending the yellow wires. Kyle at Eelectrosport assured my the current carried in those wires is not rated very high.
Ken
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 10:44:10 AM by Moto Fugazzi »
Ken
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Ken

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2015, 12:28:46 PM »
Probably bad Regulator... but,,, for test purposes I removed the sense wire from circuit. Voltage went up a tad 14.8 - 14.9  ::(

Run a direct wire to the sense wire. Same 14.8 volt regulation. The only thing I haven't done yet is to remove (open) the green wire which I assume they're using for a reference.

Bottom line,,, so far it doesn't budge from 14.8  :beat_horse

The ugly part is I use XT150 (150 amp) connectors on the output and 30 amp connectors on the stator input. Bottom line is I cut off the original connectors which most likely will void a warranty even though it's their product that failed. Most retailers will do just about anything to deny a claim... even if just... so chances R I'm OOL

I started using these connectors after burning up a stator on my GL650 SilverWing Honda. Upon inspection I found the stator wires melted together at the plug going to the regulator. I had already changed that thing out but it eventually would melt again.  Of course on a GL650 one has to pull the engine to change the stator sooooooo I found these great connectors at BuddyRC. Used three of them and haven't had a problem since. They don't even get warm. Overkill but better than engine pulling.

http://www.buddyrc.com/accessory/connectors.html


dilligaf

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2015, 01:04:50 PM »
I have been doing business with these folks for years.  No problems and when you call them, they know what they are talking about.
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/
 :BEER:
Matt

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2015, 02:26:16 PM »
I have been doing business with these folks for years.  No problems and when you call them, they know what they are talking about.
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/
 :BEER:
Matt
After 2 bad incidents with Electrosport, I think I'm going to get the stator upgrade and the Regulator from them. They claim it will increase output to 450W.
Ken
Ken
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Ken

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2015, 02:44:03 PM »
Finally got the old regulator to where I could make it out.

Suffice it to say there were soldering issues...

To Wayne: Yes it seems there are more than one version. Guess I was lucky  >:(  I finally did remove the green wire and as I expected no output from the Regulator.

dilligaf

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2015, 10:55:26 AM »
I have never done business with Electrosport but they appears to be all things to all people where as euromotoelectrics focus appears to be just Bosch and that be us.  ;-T  :BEER:
Matt 

Offline pressureangle

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2015, 03:54:46 PM »
14.8v is just fine. It's a little higher than laboratory perfect, however given the latitude to accommodate storage loss and short-trip incomplete charging it is preferable over 14.2.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery
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Online Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2015, 09:23:09 PM »
It would certainly try to keep the headlight at the setpoint (14.2 or so?)  For any power supply or regulator that has a sense wire, that wire should be connected to the thing that needs the accurate regulated voltage.  If you connect it to the headlight supply, for example, the regulator will do its best to keep the headlight voltage at the setpoint.  But the battery is probably the thing that's most sensitive to the charge voltage, so you'd think that the sense wire should be connected to its positive terminal, or near it.
 
As you say Jim, the Ducati Energia regulator is set at 13.8 Volts and measures downstream of the headlight relay which is about half a Volt lower than the battery +.
I suspect the Ducati Energia factory makes a special regulator just for Guzzi.

If you are going to use an aftermarket regulator as you say it should be attached to where it's designed for.
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Ken

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2015, 09:50:04 PM »
Well here is what ElectroSports has to say:

Hello,

14.8 is not too high, its right on the upper limit for what a battery can receive, just like it should be.  Its charging perfectly from the sound of it.  We do not make any regulators that charge at 14.4

Kyle Wood - Sales Manager
-------------------------------------
Procom Engineering / ElectroSport
21 Brookline, Aliso Viejo, CA 92656
PH: (949) 305-4200

I disagree.... maybe for short city runs, but not for long hauls. Both vehicles I own regulate at 14.3. My GL650 at 14.4. My Chinese scooter at 14.4. My Lawnmower at 14.3. My company work Astro Van at 14.3.

My experience with 12 volt flooded batteries is: Fully charged == 12.7 volts at a SG of 1.265. AGM batteries will read a .1 to .2 volts higher. A maximun charge should be between 2.3 -2.45 volts per cell which works out to 13.8 - 14.7.  Too low you get sulfation , too high you get gassing.

I'm out $150 unless I risk the battery. I am considering buying the Ducati Reg. from MG Cycle ($238) but scared I may end up with the same thing. At present I am attempting to repair the old rectifier.

Thanks for all the help, especially Kiwi Roy. I'll get back if/when I find a solution.


dilligaf

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Re: Regulated voltage 14.8 at Battery
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2015, 10:16:36 PM »
Just for what it's worth I purchased a regulator for my R65LS from these folks for about $20.00 flus a few bucks for shipping.
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/
Looks like it's up to $24 now. :BEER:
Matt

 

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