Author Topic: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires  (Read 26532 times)

Offline rboe

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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #90 on: January 14, 2015, 09:37:35 PM »
Kev; these guys don't look like Consumer Reports and are running what they got (the guys in town, not sure who the guys are in the hockey rink). Which means instead of taking the worst All Season tire and comparing it to the best snow tire. So I'd say each car guy bought the best tire he could afford (why buy the worst?).

But it does make wonder how each class of tire would compare (i.e. instead of one sample, provide as many as possible for as many data points as you can afford).

But it will take some work to find the worst snow tire to compare to the best all season.
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Offline charlie b

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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2015, 11:24:37 PM »
And it depends on which AWD and which RWD and which 4WD.  The vast number of 4WD trucks and SUV ( up until a few years ago) were really just 2WD since they did not come with limited slip as std.  Like that 4WD in the video above.  And it also looked like the little car had limited slip.

And like the comparison to the Subie not all AWD are equal.
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Offline Lannis

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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2015, 11:36:11 PM »
And it depends on which AWD and which RWD and which 4WD.  The vast number of 4WD trucks and SUV ( up until a few years ago) were really just 2WD since they did not come with limited slip as std.  Like that 4WD in the video above.  And it also looked like the little car had limited slip.

And like the comparison to the Subie not all AWD are equal.

4WD vehicles have existed for years, but when I was coming up, only a very few people could afford them.

The alternative was simple.   Put studded snow tires and/or chains on the back of the Pontiac, put some weight in the trunk, and just drive.   Where I started out working, they expected you to get to work regardless of the weather.   

We've all got tons more money than we used to have, so we use it to make things easier for us.   But we generally made it where we were going in them days.....

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Offline Yukonica

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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2015, 01:09:35 AM »
Gotta jump into the fray simply because it looks like so much fun. ;D
Do any of you buy the sketchiest 'get-by' rubber you can fit on your bike's rim? Or do you buy something that will provide a modest level of adhesion during avoidance maneuvers?.. just curious.
Me, I don't get much winter driving experience cause we only get it 8 months of the year (7 since global warming). My unscientific speculation is 99% of the time I don't need great control offered by superior traction because I'm not doing anything to upset the inertia.... that remaining 1 percent concerns me.
Tires are integral to keeping me stuck to the ground. I buy and happily wear-out the best I can afford. I drive a 4wd and own two sets of winter rated tires. One is studded and the other isn't. I use one set for summer and shoulder and the other for the rest of the year. I look at the money I spend on tires is saving money spent on bodywork and towing fees.
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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2015, 01:09:35 AM »

Online Kev m

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Re: Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #94 on: January 15, 2015, 03:35:19 AM »
Kev; these guys don't look like Consumer Reports and are running what they got (the guys in town, not sure who the guys are in the hockey rink). Which means instead of taking the worst All Season tire and comparing it to the best snow tire. So I'd say each car guy bought the best tire he could afford (why buy the worst?).

But it does make wonder how each class of tire would compare (i.e. instead of one sample, provide as many as possible for as many data points as you can afford).

But it will take some work to find the worst snow tire to compare to the best all season.
I'm not sure what you're suggesting? That they didn't hand pick the cars and tires used in the comparison?

Why wouldn't they? They're one of the largest tire retailers in the country with a shop that mounts and balances their products too.

And they certainly have the data to know which are the best and worst

And they are NOT CR, their agenda is NOT data it's advertising and sales.

What is better for their business, people running two sets of tires even on brand new cars or just running one set of all-seasons on OEM rims?

I'm NOT suggesting dishonesty, so much as strong motivation to show as big a case as possible to support sales of their product. It's still truth in advertisement, albeit probably biased.
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Online Rough Edge racing

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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #95 on: January 15, 2015, 04:47:57 AM »
4WD vehicles have existed for years, but when I was coming up, only a very few people could afford them.

The alternative was simple.   Put studded snow tires and/or chains on the back of the Pontiac, put some weight in the trunk, and just drive.   Where I started out working, they expected you to get to work regardless of the weather.  

We've all got tons more money than we used to have, so we use it to make things easier for us.   But we generally made it where we were going in them days.....

Lannis

 Now this is the truth.....And it snows here in western NY state a lot more than many other places mentioned here and up until maybe 20 years ago 2 wheel drive was most got along with. And as Lannis says,we all got were we had to go....
 Now it seems no one can venture a half mile from home without all wheel drive,back up cameras, I phones and GPS.......
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 04:48:57 AM by Rough Edge racing »
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Online Zoom Zoom

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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #96 on: January 15, 2015, 05:23:54 AM »
I'll wager the OP never expected this much discussion on this question. ;)

Just to qualify my previous comments, (and I know many here can relate), I have been contending with winter weather for a long time. My job of nearly 40 years entails me driving around every day in all kinds of weather. Until Lake Erie is frozen, lake effect snow and ice contribute to all kinds of conditions where I live and work, along with the regular snow storms that aren't lake effect driven. Muscle cars, grocery getters, 4WD trucks, and a 4WD Suburban are included in the mix. Both posi and open rears on cars and FWD as well. Studs and no studs. In all those years, I can count on one hand with fingers left over when the company took us off the road due to weather, although I would have suggested more times that we should have been grounded. We are still expected to get the job done. As I said before, my present van at work has winter tires on all four corners. It still sucks when the roads get bad! I only put winter tires on my Impreza in the last couple years and never had them on the WRX at all. The AWD Subie would simply go places the van would not when the roads get bad. I spent all night sitting at the bottom of a gully on a road when I was called out, unable to get up the hill. The Subaru with half worn all seasons would have gotten me out of it. In fact, once I got to work, after sitting for hours, the van would not make into our parking lot due to knee deep snow that had been plowed across the entrance of our lot. I parked the van behind the Fire Station and walked over to my car and drove out like nothing on OEM all seasons with several years of use on them.  

But to the ORIGINAL question: "  Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires" with no mention of studs or driving techniques, and assuming tires as good or better than originally fitted with a decent amount of tread, I will take AWD any day over the RWD for winter driving. AWD is not a get out of jail card, nor does it mean you have licence to become a jerk on the road. What it does mean is your drive can be easier and much less stressful.

No one is saying you cannot get there given enough patience and time with almost anything, I do it every day. But at the end of the day, I can't wait to get out of the van and into the Subie when the roads are bad!

So, I suppose we can debate the finer points of tires, drive systems, techniques, and everything else. At the end of the day, my AWD vehicle has proven superior in every way to anything else I have ever driven in foul weather!

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and the flying motor singing.
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Online Kev m

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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2015, 06:22:12 AM »
Now this is the truth.....And it snows here in western NY state a lot more than many other places mentioned here and up until maybe 20 years ago 2 wheel drive was most got along with. And as Lannis says,we all got were we had to go....

Well, let's be honest, I remember digging out and pushing out a hell of a lot of stuck vehicles in the 80s and 90s.

So I suspect people largely had to work harder to go where they had to go and/or stayed home more.


Now it seems no one can venture a half mile from home without all wheel drive,back up cameras, I phones and GPS.......

Seems is the operable word.

It seems like no one can live from day to day without electricity anymore too.

Or maybe it is that people LIKE the conveniences of technology and don't see a NEED to do without them.

Unfamiliarity doesn't necessarily equate to lack of ability.

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Online Rough Edge racing

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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #98 on: January 15, 2015, 07:33:50 AM »
 Kev, me and you are from different worlds... ;D
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Online Kev m

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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #99 on: January 15, 2015, 07:49:40 AM »
Kev, me and you are from different worlds... ;D

Nahhhh, it just SEEMS that way  :BEER:

I don't think NYC and Long Island were really THAT different from western NY... except maybe no lake effect snow.  :D
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Offline rboe

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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #100 on: January 15, 2015, 08:05:23 AM »
Kev; good points (and being late; I didn't state my main point which was your cynical statement stating they probably cherry picked the worst all season and best snow tire to exaggerate the differences, it was inferred but not stated. I needed sleep. :) )

Under the video is a link to the full test: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=116

They stuck with one brand of tire so we don't know how they perform to other brands (there is a Finnish brand of snow tire that escapes me that was the gold standard back in the day; expensive too, but scary good in the ice and snow that I would expect to smoke anything Bridgestone makes) but I think it does show they did not cherry pick, from the full market, snow tires and all seasons. I don't know the Bridgestone line that well but it appears they did take the better Bridgestone product line.

Typically I'm not as cynical as you and in this case I think the vendor did good. They do have a profit motive but I think they did a very good job of making a good test with very little bias towards a product. Which they easily could have by not including the details on the cars, tires and reasons why they did the test. All that info is provided in the link I have above.

In real world terms we make less than we did twenty years ago; what has happened is that a lot of technology has filtered down to where we can afford some of it (typically just due to scale of manufacturing). A well designed RWD car can do as well as a well designed FWD car, with the proper tires and a good driver. AWD/4WD can do even better; but I think real world experience shows that unreasonable expectations of AWD and bad drivers or poor judgement have these cars in the ditch and in accidents more than they should be. Same goes for RWD and FWD cars that end up stuck. However; I think there are more RWD cars out there (or were, back in the day) totally unsuited for winter storm driving; mainly because of too big of an engine which makes too much power for snow and puts too much weight up front were it's not needed.

When it gets really bad, I'll take a Snow Cat. :)

I never owned one in Minnesota (did have one in Arizona for a spell) but I've seen the local pizza place delivering pizzas during a blizzard with a Suzuki Samuri. With good snow tires I bet that sucker was the bomb! Unlike the Suby, it had very good ground clearance.
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Offline steven c

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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #101 on: January 15, 2015, 08:50:47 AM »
 My first car was a new 74 Subaru DL in Vibrant green which was when Subaru's where still just FWD ( I think the four WD wagon came out in 75 or so) I put a set of bias ply snows on the front and this car was really unstoppable. I would drive to warm and all the big American cars would be stuck and I would just drive around or one big storm that closed the state down I would stop and help people get going. I swear it was better in the snow then my 97 Outback or my 12 Forester. I tend to think it was the large lugs they used to put on snows, more of a mud tire now. My 80 Citation was not as good with just snows on the front, I tend to think because it was a much wider tire the the DL's.
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Online Kev m

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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #102 on: January 15, 2015, 09:13:29 AM »
Kev; good points (and being late; I didn't state my main point which was your cynical statement stating they probably cherry picked the worst all season and best snow tire to exaggerate the differences, it was inferred but not stated. I needed sleep. :) )

Under the video is a link to the full test: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=116

They stuck with one brand of tire so we don't know how they perform to other brands (there is a Finnish brand of snow tire that escapes me that was the gold standard back in the day; expensive too, but scary good in the ice and snow that I would expect to smoke anything Bridgestone makes) but I think it does show they did not cherry pick, from the full market, snow tires and all seasons. I don't know the Bridgestone line that well but it appears they did take the better Bridgestone product line.

Typically I'm not as cynical as you and in this case I think the vendor did good. They do have a profit motive but I think they did a very good job of making a good test with very little bias towards a product. Which they easily could have by not including the details on the cars, tires and reasons why they did the test. All that info is provided in the link I have above.

I DO think it is a decent test and makes some good points about the POSSIBLE differences tires can make.

That said - sticking with one manufacturer doesn't necessarily mean they didn't cherry pick.

READER'S DIGEST VERSION IN BOLD:

THE DATA ON THEIR OWN WEBSITE PROVES THEY CHERRY PICKED, CONSCIOUSLY OR NOT.

If they weren't cherry picking, why wouldn't they use the BEST of each (Summer, Winter, All-Season) from the same manufacturer.

The All-Season tire they "chose" to use was THE WORST in the category:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Turanza+EL400-02

592 reviews on their own website say that most wouldn't buy that All-Season tire again, and though they give it good marks for wet and dry, give it only Fair for snow and Unacceptable for Ice.

As a matter of fact, if you look at the full list of results for tires in the same category of what they tested (All-Season) 19 of the 20 tires rated better than the one they chose, 12 of them with ratings of GOOD or EXCELLENT in SNOW AND ICE.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=ST

And that most other All-Seasons are rated better than the one they chose to test is a pattern is seen across other types of All-Season tires they carry.

This is EVEN true with other BRIDGESTONES LIKE the Potenza

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Potenza+RE960AS+Pole+Position

Though there are only 22 reviews on their website at this time most would buy it again, and it is rated with superior wet and dry capabilities, but more importantly GOOD capabilities for snow AND ICE.

In this category (Ultra High Performance All Season tires) MOST get ratings of GOOD on snow or ice, only a few got fair or poor.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=UHPAS

And you don't need to go to the Ultra-High Performance All Season to get GOOD ratings for snow and ice. Just check say the simple "Passenger All Season" tires:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=B380+RFT

That Bridgestone Passenger All Season gets GOOD for ICE and SNOW (And close to excellent for snow).

And again just about the whole list of Passenger All Seasons tend to do better than what they chose to test:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=AS#runflat


On the flip side if you look at the BLIZZAK winter tire they chose it is NOT on the bottom and is rated very close to the top performers in it's Studless Ice and Snow Category:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=W&VT=C




In real world terms we make less than we did twenty years ago; what has happened is that a lot of technology has filtered down to where we can afford some of it (typically just due to scale of manufacturing). A well designed RWD car can do as well as a well designed FWD car, with the proper tires and a good driver. AWD/4WD can do even better; but I think real world experience shows that unreasonable expectations of AWD and bad drivers or poor judgement have these cars in the ditch and in accidents more than they should be. Same goes for RWD and FWD cars that end up stuck. However; I think there are more RWD cars out there (or were, back in the day) totally unsuited for winter storm driving; mainly because of too big of an engine which makes too much power for snow and puts too much weight up front were it's not needed.

When it gets really bad, I'll take a Snow Cat. :)

I never owned one in Minnesota (did have one in Arizona for a spell) but I've seen the local pizza place delivering pizzas during a blizzard with a Suzuki Samuri. With good snow tires I bet that sucker was the bomb! Unlike the Suby, it had very good ground clearance.

Well, at the end of the day I think the phenomenon we see with regards to AWD and 4WD winding up in ditches is similar to what insurance institute data showed about ABS after its introduction. Drivers overcompensated for the capabilities of the safety systems and got themselves in trouble. I think the AWD and 4WD often hides how bad road conditions really are and drivers forget. It's one of the reasons I frequently test road surfaces using my brakes to make sure I'm not overconfident in how well my AWD systems are handling the conditions.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 10:19:42 AM by Kev m »
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Offline rboe

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Re: NGC - Rear wheel drive w/ Snow tires vs. AWD w/ all season tires
« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2015, 10:00:56 AM »
 :bow They should have tested the excellent all season tires in the video. That said, I need to look into that site more as I'd like to get better "off road" tires for my 2WD pickup. I know squat about pickup tires.
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