Author Topic: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...  (Read 8799 times)

anjuu

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The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« on: November 25, 2014, 11:52:58 AM »
Well, it has been awhile since I've been here. I wish it was because I was out enjoying my bike. I was hoping to have more positive posts to contribute to this forum, as well as gotten out to meet some of you in real life, but the Gremlins prohibited that. I apologize for all the negative posts, and apologize for this one to come.

Some of you may be familiar with the problems I've had with my '12 V7C (feel free to search my history).

The bike returned to the shop multiple times after my last posts. Two new ECUs, temperature sensors, TPS resets, parameter resets, oil leaks/blown seals and gaskets, new exhausts, valve adjustments, you name it, and the bike was never once actually fixed. It continues to stall as I slow down, it stalls idling in my driveway,  it stalls in hot weather, it stalls in cold weather, it stalls when others ride the bike, it even behaved where I had it WOT, and the bike wouldn't go past 5 mph until it stalled and I restarted it.

I filed for Lemon Law. Miguel Rodriguez from Piaggio Group has given me the run around for a year, so I 'hired' an attorney (submitted all my paperwork, I have a case, I just need to sign the papers). Piaggio group breached warranty by not responding to my certified letter for FIVE MONTHS after I had sent it. Law requires a response within 30 days.

Now, Guzzi fans, I ask for your help. Not with the intention of fixing my bike, but helping my situation.  According to my attorney, I need to have the bike 'inspected' by a mechanic to verify it is a manufacturer's defect. I don't know why the 18 pages of work orders isn't enough evidence, but I guess they just want a mechanic to give it a current diagnostic or something to confirm what those 18 pages aren't confirming.

Is there anyone, anyone at all within the mid-atlantic region who might be able to assist? My only hopeful is The Spare Parts Co in Philly since they don't sell new Guzzis and they are least likely to give a biased opinion to the manufacturer. Or, maybe someone can recommend a decent dealership that might be willing to help with my cause? I can deliver the bike, pay $$, and give you the opportunity to ride this Gremlin Nest yourself...

Again, I'm very sorry to use this forum as an outlet for Guzzi negativity. I really do love my machine, when it runs right. I am hoping that I can rejoin this discussion a year from now with a proper machine, but I'm not very hopefully the manufacturer is going to make me want to stick with Guzzi after all this.

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2014, 12:51:29 PM »
I know a guy who got a new vintage to replace his lemon. Like you it took for ever.
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oceanluvr

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2014, 03:20:49 PM »
What state are you in?  Let me rephrase that; after reading your post, i know what 'state' you're in.  What i meant was , where do you live?  

Ok came back and re-read, you are in the mid atlantic....sorry can't help  :BEER:
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 03:23:43 PM by oceanluvr »

Vasco DG

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2014, 04:15:55 AM »
Sounds like a bloody disaster. I can't understand why it hasn't been sorted. It's not the most complex bike in the world by a long chalk. >:(

Lemon law it. It's just a shame as it should be a happy little jigger.

Pete

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2014, 04:15:55 AM »

anjuu

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2015, 12:20:46 AM »
An Update:

I ended up taking the bike to Spare Parts Company in Philly. Roland was my main man, a real pleasure to work with, and he may have discovered my problem.

He showed me where the plug-in for the oxygen sensor had been SMASHED. Not only were the pins inside the plug smashed, the wires leading into the plug were also smashed. He believes the plug was forced into place during assembly, then the plug and wires became crushed when the starter was fit into position.

It corresponds with the idea that there is incorrect input to the O2 sensor, and the bike throws a fit. I'll update once again I've given the bike a good, long ride.


Vasco DG

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2015, 03:13:19 AM »
Sounds a bit feeble? Plugging in PADS would immediately identify a damaged or non functioning lambda probe.

Pete

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2015, 03:27:22 AM »
Exactly how was Roland able to find the problem ? A Visual find ?
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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2015, 06:47:30 AM »
Have you continually dealt with Speeds up until the time you went to SPC?
It's the ones who've cracked that the light shines through!

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2015, 06:49:02 AM »
This is fascinating, in that I'd like to understand what went on. I'll take a swag that the 02 sensor wires/connectors being crushed meant you got an intermittent signal from it (sometimes the circuit was complete and remotely in range, sometimes not). That would explain the intermittent check engine light you got. What I don't know (Pete anyone?) is would the 02 Sensor code set during an intermittent fault remain in memory long enough for someone with PADs or NAV to have pulled it?

Now for those of us who, like me, needed a refresher about this bike. Let's look at the history:

If you are curious, here is a break-down of my discontent. Yes, it's long. This saga lasted 8 months, and is still continuing.

Bike was laid down due to a road gator back in June 2012. It is now 2013, the bike is still in need of repair. Other than a broken foot peg, a broken spark plug/boot, and a broken EVAP canister, nothing was mechanically damaged on the bike after the crash. Broke some fins on the head, buncha rash on the exhaust/mirror/lever/headlight, broken Fly screen...yadda yadda. Duder orders a new head and some other parts. 6 weeks goes by, bike isn't done. I inquire as to why...duder claims the "Head was warped in shipping," that "The old head fits better than the new one." I'm not retarded...that's the wrong part.  The real parts are on back order until who knows.

2 more weeks go by, I'm still ready to ride. I get the shits, tell duder to put the old head on 'til the new one comes. He claims he'll call when the new parts show up. Of course no one calls me back telling me the parts finally arrive, 1.5?month later.

The real kicker happens in the past month. After having the bike 2-3 months, I finally get coordinated with a friend who can follow me down to have duder complete the work on the bike that he was paid for 8 months ago. Duder says 3-4 days to complete the work. I give him two weeks. I call just after the two weeks mark. "No, bike isn't done. I gave the guys holiday leave for a week. Bike will be done by the end of the week."

I call at the end of the week. Bike isn't done. Why? Because this authorized MG repair 'technician' broke a temp sensor off the head in attempt to transplant it to the new head. MG factory is closed for the season, no repair timeline is given.

I initiate recourse with my insurance for them to get the money they paid this goof back so I can take my bike elsewhere to complete repairs. They totally agree, and initiate the recourse. I also contact MG USA, who were quite displeased to hear what was going on. Terry tells me they'll be sending a service technician out to investigate. The next day, I get the call from Speed that my bike is 'done.' Apparently, it had been 'done' for almost a week but they still needed to test ride it. When questioned why I hadn't been contacted, the reply I got was: "Because it's been too cold to test ride it to make sure it's ok, we couldn't call you until that happens."
Uhh, Wut. (then why are you calling me now?)

I express my discontent, the fact that it had taken 6 months for repairs, that they had the bike for 6 weeks and failed to fix the EVAP ( my own mother noticed it was broken within 6 minutes of getting the bike back the first time), the lack of communication, and duder's general shitty attitude toward the situation. I told him that if things were still broken on the bike when I picked it up, I was going to be livid. He told me, "Knock yourself out," then hung up on me.

Soooo, I hope that is enough evidence to warrant a justified post. If not, sorry for wasting y'alls time.
CAVEAT EMPTOR.

Fast forward and here's a summary of what has happened since:

FRUSTRATION!!!!!!!!!!!!

EOBD light came on the other day and stayed on...after a hellacious day getting the bike to the shop, I wait patiently. I receive news that it is ready to be picked up after a few days.

The list of things wrong...
Air temp sensor had gone bad. It was replaced under warranty (the main culprit to the engine light?).
Had them check and trim the valves.
TPS setting was incorrect. Reset.
Fuel injection was re-synced.
Perimeters were reset with the TPS.
TB plate set screw was tampered with...so was cross bar and air bypass screws. Guess that was my 'buddy' from Elkridge.
Right side exhaust packing was gone, gasket was gone.
Right side exhaust header was mis-aligned to cylinder head (musta been my buddy again).
Left side header gasket was completely gone.
All header and nut lockwashers were gone.
Exhaust header flanges were installed backwards...uhh, no one but certified MG shops have done work to this bike.

I don't understand wtf is going on here. I don't touch things on that bike, and it had the 7,000 mile service done at EM after I got it back from Speed. The only things I installed were clubman bars, heated grips, sparkplugs, and a sparkplug boot.

To top things off, I picked up the bike tonight...And the EOBD light keeps coming on for 5-15 seconds at a time, then going off. It also tried to stall on me making a left onto my road after driving it 30+ miles.

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2015, 06:50:31 AM »
Have you continually dealt with Speeds up until the time you went to SPC?

Sounds like (again, I had to go back through her posts and read a bunch to piece this together).

Purchased from Europa

Serviced (at least post crash, perhaps prior too, not sure) by Speeds.

Returned to Europa to try and fix what Speeds didn't/couldn't.

Lemon law pursued, then taken (at behest of lawyer) to an independent expert, Spare Parts.

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2015, 07:18:08 AM »
Sounds like (again, I had to go back through her posts and read a bunch to piece this together).

Purchased from Europa

Serviced (at least post crash, perhaps prior too, not sure) by Speeds.

Returned to Europa to try and fix what Speeds didn't/couldn't.

Lemon law pursued, then taken (at behest of lawyer) to an independent expert, Spare Parts.


Wonder how a Guzzitech reflash and O2 disable would work. I had it done to mine when I added the Mistrals and all the factory fueling issues were pretty well taken care of and the bike runs a lot better. I'm willing to let the OP try my reflashed ECU if they want to ride up to Chambersburg and spend an hour or testing it out.

Out of curiosity who is the Guzzi wrench at Europa since they and Art parted ways?

« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 07:22:25 AM by Perazzimx14 »
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Offline toma nova

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2015, 07:34:18 AM »
I'm sorry that you've had so many issues with your bike - I would be just as frustrated.

However, I don't understand how you can claim the lemon law when the bike was crashed.  AFAIK, lemon laws address manufacturing defects, not repair incompetence.  Reading the summary above, I would think that your beef is with the repairing shop(s) (not necessarily MG dealers) and/or your insurance company, and not Piaggio / MG as a manufacturer.

Did I miss something that makes this a manufacturing defect?
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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2015, 07:39:58 AM »
Wonder how a Guzzitech reflash and O2 disable would work. I had it done to mine when I added the Mistrals and all the factory fueling issues were pretty well taken care of and the bike runs a lot better. I'm willing to let the OP try my reflashed ECU if they want to ride up to Chambersburg and spend an hour or testing it out.

If in truth the whole idle/stumble/stall and occasional lack of WOT problem was indeed just the 02 sensor and harness then I would think that your Guzzitech reflashed ECU (a suggestion I think you made in one of the earlier threads) with the 02 disabled would have worked.

To that extent, so would have downloading Guzzidiag and simply shutting off the 02.

But it seems like there is/was something more going on with this. Maybe there WAS something more and it's all actually fixed at this point.


I'm sorry that you've had so many issues with your bike - I would be just as frustrated.

However, I don't understand how you can claim the lemon law when the bike was crashed.  AFAIK, lemon laws address manufacturing defects, not repair incompetence.  Reading the summary above, I would think that your beef is with the repairing shop(s) (not necessarily MG dealers) and/or your insurance company, and not Piaggio / MG as a manufacturer.

Did I miss something that makes this a manufacturing defect?

You raise a good point and it certainly muddies the water.

But could the starter possibly have moved enough in a crash to crush the 02 sensor wiring/connector? I would think not without evidence of starter damage, but I could be wrong. If the answer is YES, then yeah I agree. If the answer is NO, then it must have happened upon assembly and it IS indeed a manufacturing defect.


« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 07:43:48 AM by Kev m »
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anjuu

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2015, 10:56:26 AM »
Toma Nova,
I'm not Lemon Lawing the bike because of the accident. I am Lemon Lawing it because it has had starting and stalling issues since I got it. The starting issue was supposedly a too long of a 'choke' cable, but it still had hard starts every other day one the cable was adjusted. It had stalled on me a handful of times, but never owning a new bike, I didn't think much of it. The bike was laid down a month (Jun '12) after I bought it, and I didn't ride it again until Feb/Mar '13 (it took Speed that long to fix the various cosmetic issues from the crash).

Once I got it back and began riding it as my daily, the stalling/hesitation issues became more apparent. I thought that Speed may have done something to the bike, so I had Europa Macchina look at it more times than I can count, with the same re-occurring issue. I would pick up the bike from EM to ride it 70 miles home, and by the time I was 20 miles from home, the bike would start bucking/hesitating/stalling in traffic. This happened EVERY single time I brought it back from the shop regardless of what repair they have made to resolve the issue. It even did it to my brother and friends who have ridden the bike, so it wasn't just an isolated event. I concluded that there is another issue that no amount of TPS resets, ECU replacements, or various other warranty repairs can fix.

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2015, 11:08:07 AM »
So what's the status now?

Roland has fixed it?

Or just identified another problem?

And how is MGNA handling?
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anjuu

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2015, 11:17:20 AM »
The damage to the bike was on the right side...the starter is on the left. There should have been no reason to remove the starter for any of the services to the bike. The most damage done from the crash was a broken plug/boot, blinker, foot peg, and EVAP canister. The rest was cosmetic (rash on head cover, chipped fin, rash on headlight, exhaust, and flyscreen). I could have ridden the bike home if I wasn't so shaken up.

Roland has identified what he believes is the defect. There is no evidence that the starter was ever removed, which would have caused the damage of the plug if it was re-installed. He has not replaced the plug, but was able to bend the pins back. The wire is still crushed. I'll get pix later.

MGUSA/Piaggio Group USA is being difficult. Miguel Rodriguez evaded the Maryland Attorney General, Consumer Protection Division THREE times. The guy from the Attorney General's office called me telling me that Mr. Rodriguez was not returning his calls and that he (Attorney General guy) cannot act as my lawyer; That I would have to hire a lawyer because MGUSA/Piaggio Group has broken the law by not conforming with the mandatory 30-day response to his office.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 11:18:23 AM by anjuu »

Offline Spuddy

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2015, 11:28:25 AM »
God Speed to a resolution.

You would think MGNA would look at this as an opportunity for inexpensive positive press and good will.  [Perhaps not with Wild Guzzi members if it considers us 'married' to the brand anyway.]

Spuddy
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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2015, 11:30:54 AM »
You have an uphill battle. The bike was only I service for 1 month then out of service for 6 months after a wreck. I can almost guarantee Piaggio will point the finger at the dealer who made the repairs or blame then or the accident for your problems. Was the bike ever iin the shop to address you issues prior to the wreck?

As for the O2 sensor as KenM suggested have it turned off. Then it 100% out of the equation.
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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2015, 11:31:06 AM »
Playing devil's advocate here but the argument could be made that the crash may of pushed the exhaust out of alignment causing the wiring to the O2 sensor to be stretched and/or tugging the connector into a position where it would be crushed and damaged.

I know you are saying that the problems pre-dated the crash but I'd hope you have well documented proof that this was the case otherwise all bets will be off.

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2015, 11:38:26 AM »
God Speed to a resolution.

You would think MGNA would look at this as an opportunity for inexpensive positive press and good will.  [Perhaps not with Wild Guzzi members if it considers us 'married' to the brand anyway.]

Spuddy

But no matter how thin you slice a piece of cheese there are always two side to it. We are getting one side of the story. If the condition was present but not documented addressed prior to the accident Piaggio will take the stance the accident is the root cause of all the issues and the OP will bare the burden of proving them wrong. Something that is nearly impossible.
It's the ones who've cracked that the light shines through!

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2015, 11:39:45 AM »
Yeah, to be clear I'm NOT pointing the finger at you as the owner. I'm just pointing out reasons MGNA might be uncooperative.

Though it sounds like they really need to step up to the plate, if not to avoid the hassle of what should be a slam dunk lawsuit if they are currently non-compliant with the law, but also for plain old customer service.

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Offline Aaron D.

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2015, 11:40:59 AM »
Just a quick legal thought, if the AG says that Piaggio has broken the law, it should not be the consumer that should be hiring a lawyer. The AG is required to pursue.

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2015, 11:58:41 AM »
is the problem solved with O2 sensor fix?

if so, carry on.
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anjuu

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2015, 01:44:21 PM »
I'm sure MG is going to say the crash is the issue, trust me, I made sure to talk to my lawyer about how that would affect the case. She was pretty confident it wouldn't, but I had to get a mechanic to verify that there was a manufacturer's defect. Who is to say the defect did not cause the accident? I've had the bike stall on me in the middle of making a left-hand turns and stopping at intersections...sca ry stuff.

I should not be having these issues 1.5 years after the accident, and after multiple diagnostic and hardware 'repairs.'  The warranty was never voided because of the accident, and from my understanding, since they don't even know what the problem is, they can't even say it's because of the accident.

I have not ridden the bike yet to find out if it is still symptomatic, or if the O2 sensor problem is fixed. Crazy thing, I don't get a check-engine light when it starts acting up or stalls.

At this point, the reason to take them to court is that they breached a contract protected by the Consumer Protection Division. By law, they have 30 days to respond back about correcting the problem. We heard nothing back until FIVE MONTHS later. Once I finally got Miguel Rodriguez on the phone about the issue, he assured me he would talk to his tech department to find out what they could do. I never heard back from him to date. Tired of calling.

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Re: The last straw, looking for a non-dealer technician...
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2015, 02:07:30 PM »
Another legal thought you should discuss with your lawyer: By failing to act subsequent to MGNA's 30 day response period, then talking to Rodriguez, I'm sure MGNA will contend you waived your rights under the applicable consumer statute. Having done so, no longer is there a slam dunk for MGNA's failure to respond within the 30 day period.

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