Author Topic: Arrrrgh! Broken!  (Read 13596 times)

Vasco DG

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Arrrrgh! Broken!
« on: January 15, 2015, 01:59:46 AM »
Came back from Sydney this afternoon and noticed a bit pf extra vibration on the over-run. Took out ear plugs and she's HOWLING! I recon the pinion nut has come undone, it's the same in every gear. Have nut and washer in stock and multiple spares.

We'll see tomorrow.

Pete

Offline Phang

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 02:10:59 AM »
This should be the first major issue of your Griso Verde.

Will hang around for updates  ;D
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Vasco DG

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 02:21:30 AM »
I was thinking a few weeks ago that perhaps I should loctite it. Then I decided I couldn't be arsed! :D

Pete

Offline Waterbottle

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 02:48:13 AM »
I was thinking a few weeks ago that perhaps I should loctite it. Then I decided I couldn't be arsed! :D

Pete

Hmmmm, maybe I should be  :D   At least you've a few spares at your disposal Pete.
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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 02:48:13 AM »

Offline Waterbottle

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 02:54:20 AM »
Hey...... Doesn't this belong in "Those crappy Griso's " ?  :D
2015 Griso SE Rosso
2012 Stelvio 8V
2009 Griso R  Track only
76 GT 750 Suzuki
If you Ride a Griso, You need Tyres with Gription

Vasco DG

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 02:54:58 AM »
They turn up on fleabay regularly. Not really a serious problem any more. I just hate the downtime!

Pete

Offline Phang

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2015, 03:20:37 AM »
Probably a good idea to put a few drops of wicking grade threadlocker on the locknut the next time when the CARC is removed.


2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Offline balvenie

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2015, 03:23:49 AM »
             Hang the customers. Fix your own bike first. Nothing else matters ;D
Oz
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Vasco DG

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2015, 03:29:23 AM »
Got another V7 to PD and I'm waiting on parts for the dead Stelvio. Apart from that my schedule has services and simple stuff. I got lots of time to fix my own shit! ;D

Pete

Offline John A

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2015, 05:09:59 AM »
A mechanic has a very good idea of what limit he can run his equipment to so sometimes his own stuff gets run to the ragged edge. Just something I observed, mostly with myself.
John
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Vasco DG

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2015, 05:28:45 AM »
Not really that John. The issue is they no longer solid space the bearings for preload. Therefore the nut is only tightened to some weeny amount and relies on the stinkin' tab washer to maintain nut location and therefore preload. Slightly insufficient preload, wear or even a sudden shock can reduce the preload or shear the tab on the lockwasher. I'm wondering idly if there is enough thread for a second washer to lock the first one? Either that or simply solid space the pinion bearings and crank the nut down to a zillion mile tonnes.

Thing is when something like this occurs it is sudden and unpredictable, while my bikes are all generally scruffy they are over-serviced and maintained.

There again it could be the gearbox, but I really doubt it!

Pete

beetle

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2015, 05:58:37 AM »
Quote from: Vasco DG
crank the nut down to a zillion mile tonnes.

I'd like to see that torque wrench!   :o

Online Guzzistajohn

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2015, 06:24:59 AM »
Make sure you get the metric locktite
Not anti social, pro solitude.

Offline Sasquatch Jim

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2015, 06:32:31 AM »
Make sure you get the metric locktite

 Do they make locktite for left hand threads?
Sasquatch Jim        Humanoid, sort of.

father guzzi obrian

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2015, 08:36:04 AM »
Loctite is neitherdextrous, to use it on left hand threads, it must be applied holding the bottle with the left hand, I don't know why folks don't read the directions........

Offline ken farr

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2015, 11:14:16 AM »
Loctite is neitherdextrous, to use it on left hand threads, it must be applied holding the bottle with the left hand, I don't know why folks don't read the directions........


 ;D


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Offline twhitaker

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2015, 11:26:45 AM »
Isn't there a specific type of Loctite for upside down applications ? ::)

  Dusty

It has upsidasium mixed in with it to get proper flow.
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Offline trippah

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2015, 11:41:19 AM »
I thought it required the antigrav guzziespezialtool the parts dept. will sell you for only five hundred USD. 

Offline rboe

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2015, 02:38:32 PM »
I can never remember which Loctite to use come winter so I toss in the towel and get the All Season Loctite.  :pop
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Vasco DG

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2015, 04:14:29 PM »
Yup. Rooted!





Pete

Offline rodekyll

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2015, 05:41:27 PM »
I can never remember which Loctite to use come winter so I toss in the towel and get the All Season Loctite.  :pop

Studded or walnut shell?



Pete -- the washer looks a mess.  Does this failure damage the transmission, or is it a simple replace-and-stake?

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2015, 06:47:18 PM »
This bothers me more than a little.. :(
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline Lannis

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2015, 06:50:36 PM »
This bothers me more than a little.. :(

And I'll bet I have one of those on my Stelvio, too.
"Hard pounding, this, gentlemen; let's see who pounds the longest".

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2015, 07:01:17 PM »
simply solid space the pinion bearings and crank the nut down to a zillion mile tonnes.

Pete

This

Proven method

Surely the price of a spacer wouldn't be an issue to Piaggio, is it same thread as old dunger pinions ? That nut is completely foolproof, like one on back of gearbox, just punch it to lock on splines.
I've just converted my 67 final drive to run in Tonti, this is proper deja vu for Guzzi
The 67 did have preload spacer but had silly peg nut and tab washer, not sure when they discovered the locking nut but wasn't long after
My "new" 67 box, I've never tried an 8/37 before, had to do it, at least I know the nut won't come loose and look at the splines, genuine 5000 miles!!!!

Offline CalVin2007

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2015, 07:24:43 PM »
This bothers me more than a little.. :(

   Me too. Incredible what a company will try when time-proven (and common sense as well!) methods have been used for, well for as long as I can remember! Solid spacers for setting preload between tapered roller bearings is such a standard method that it's almost unthinkable to even attempt what Guzzi has done here. Shame on them.

   Terry
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Vasco DG

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2015, 07:52:42 PM »
All fixed. The CW&P actually looked fine but since I have several basically new ones I just pulled the bridge out of one of those and used it. I did take the precaution of taking the nut and lockwasher off and loctiting the bejasus out of it.

I agree that not using solid spacer is dumb but it is CHEAP and everybody always loves cheap. I'm considering cannibalising another one and solid spacing it. No reason you can't.

I've seen two cases of this in ten years. I saw at least as many other bevelbox failures over the years with other designs. I knew that people would shriek. Perhaps I should just not bother?

Pete

Vasco DG

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2015, 10:02:52 PM »



That is a very pretty thing Martin. Have you run one of the earlier 'Pumpkin' boxes with a later, higher powered, motor than the original V7? I seem to remember that there were issues with them cracking in higher load situations. Not claiming it to be fact but Charlie might know.

Pete

Vasco DG

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2015, 11:03:35 PM »
Just sent this to 'Waterbottle' but it might as well go up here in case anybody wants to take preventative action. Ignore the bit about borrowing tools. I've met Don, he's a good egg. I don't lend out tools usually, they have a habit of not coming back.

If you decide to do this there are a few things you'll need.

One of those tools for applying the clamps for CV boots on car axles.

Clamps for same.

Special tool which I can lend you.

Threebond 1211 or similar.

30 Tonne press.

My guess is you have most of that apart from the special tool, which is manufacturable but why bother if you want to borrow mine.

Sequence is basically undo the clamp that holds the top boot to the case. Remove the plate on the front that secures the front boot.

Remove the bolts holding the cases together.

Heat the outside, RH, case of theCARC with a heat gun or butane torch around the bearing. Pry case apart at pry points and then heat some more and lift off RH case.

Support case so you can press on the centre of the crownwheel on the wheel side and push the entire bridge out of the bearing in the LH case.

Remove clamp that holds front boot to the seal holder, remove boot and the plastic ring thing that protects the boot.

Clamp crownwheel in soft jaws in dirty great f*ck-off vice. Bust Choofer Valve with long breaker bar undoing seal carrier after removing 'G' clip. (It helps if you warm the outer edge of the bridge surrounding the seal holder with a butane torch.).

That will give you access to the poxy peg nut. Bend down tab on lock washer and loosen peg nut.

Clean thoroughly and apply small amount of red Loctite to threads, re-install new lockwasher and peg nut and tighten to either where it was before or 50 inch pounds. Bend up lock washer tab.

Install new seal in seal holder.. Reinstall seal holder and tighten up until you fart using FB breaker bar. Check pinion backlash.

Reinstall the front boot and plastic ring and use the CV boot clamp tool and clamp to tighten down the clamp. Cut off excess clamp.

Grease seal lip in LH case and use press to press crownwheel back into case taking care that both top and front boot don't hang up and get damaged.

Apply thin layer of threebond to mating face of case. Invert LH case on press and use press to push RH case down on to LH case over bearing taking care that dowels align etc.

Take CARC out of press and bolt halves back together (8mm into alloy? 22 ft/lbs from memory?)

Secure front boot with plate and shitty self tapping screws, (It doesn't harm to use a bit of threebond around the boot.)

Use long CV boot clamp on top boot, double the clamp around and tighten using tool. Cut off excess clamp.

Re-fit to bike, fill with oil, replace wheel, brake and stuff.

Go out for ride and marvel at your wonderfulness! :D

Pete

Offline Sasquatch Jim

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2015, 11:21:24 PM »
  Upside down locktite can only be purchased in Australia and New Zealand.
Sasquatch Jim        Humanoid, sort of.

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Arrrrgh! Broken!
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2015, 12:32:50 AM »
That is a very pretty thing Martin. Have you run one of the earlier 'Pumpkin' boxes with a later, higher powered, motor than the original V7? I seem to remember that there were issues with them cracking in higher load situations. Not claiming it to be fact but Charlie might know.

Pete
Sorry to threadjack (i'd def fit solid spacer & proper locknut)

Unusual for me but pretty is the main reason, that and confuse the train spotters who really try to identify my bike,
no I haven't ever had one before but the factory endurance racer V7 Sport had one back in the day without mishap AFAIK, never going to push that hard on the road
I did fit later bearing carrier with bigger bearings and I modded the casting for oilways (feed and return) as on all later boxes

Std was good enough for Jack

And Mike


And I'm now a slow old git, will watch for leaks of course, has viton seals O rings at pinion etc, only oil level remains to be decided, will try 250cc first (factory quoted 300 then 230)


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