Need some hydraulic input MIGHT BE GETTING SOMEWHERE

[rodekyll]

The tank top level is +/- 2" from the top of the old tank location, however the fluid level might be different in order to make the volume -- top tank, with stuff in it is necessary to give me a total of a couple liters in the system.  Less than that and I'm concerned for volume.  Maybe I need to splice in the oem reservoir tank to give it the needed volume at a lower level, fill to the reservoir's proper level and let the radiator act as a huge cooler . .  . .  ?   


Did I mention before that before this last test, a few seconds after shutting the engine down there was always a massive burp of fluid out the main return hose?  I mean 100cc or so.  I don't know if that means anything.

Keep in mind that my main motivation is laziness and I really dislike pulling my timing cover to screw around with the pump.  Case in point -- my running bike sits for want of a new atf pump drivepiece during the nicest season I can remember here, only because I hate removing the timing cover.  So if there are reasonable steps to take on the way to that inevitability, I'm almost all ears.

My next step was going to be enlarging the holes at the banjo fittings to be sure I'm flowing as freely through the pump as is reasonable.  I can drill those holes for free, but I'll be chopping up $40 worth of hose to splice in the tank.  . . .  I think I'll use the drill press first, just to scratch that itch.   

[fubar guzzi]

Ive used KENDALL 6505(?)military grade its blue in color. In reguard to pumps I will use the first one you suggested(turbo gear brass oil pump) thank you much.

[rodekyll]

I just bought the other one.  Reasons are

more flow
less power draw
higher pressure
probably quieter (based on design)
has a speed controller (not sure if that's a useful feature or not)

The one you got has the advantages of

easier barb customization
more convenient shape
more easily serviced

I'm getting mine because I have two bikes with probable pump problems and I'm getting real tired of replacing that hex shaft.  At this point it's worth the $100 to install an electric pump and see what happens.  If it doesn't suck enough (which would really suck) I can still use it to transfer fuel on the boat -- I sometimes run with a couple 50gal barrels on deck to get the range I need, and hand pumping to the main tank also sucks.

As with all Converts, electrical power is critical -- can't push start them.  So the 'lectsessories need to fall into an energy budget that leaves room for starting the bike.  The pump I chose draws 3.8a to deliver 30L/min@6#.  the other one needs 5a to push 9L/min@0#.

[rodekyll]

I have decided to take a break from this madness for a day and ponder the shifter and dashboard instead.  I'm going to have to replumb everything to wedge the oem reservoir between the pump and radiator, measure it all out to oem relative levels, and then spill the stinky atf everywhere.  I don't want to face it today.  I'll pick it up again on Sunday or Monday.

[Aaron D.]

Any check valves in that cooling circuit?
I like the electric pump idea, that hex drive thing sounds awful.

[rodekyll]

No one-way valves as such, but there is a pressure relief valve -- simple ball on a spring.

The hex drive is awful.  Even if they'd made it 8mm instead of 6 it would be an improvement.  The hex was a redesign from the original flat-blade-in-slot which was worse.  So they upgraded from worse to awful.

The tradeoff for electric is that it's electric.  I mistrust electricity.  Shocking, I know.  But my biggest objection to my first Guzzi was lack of a kickstarter.  They have such small charging systems.

[rodekyll]

Plumbed it back to oem tank in the oem position and am still having the same symptoms.  I've been as systematic about checking things as I can be.  Things inside the timing cover are about all that are left to check.  If I had to make an assumption at this point I'd have to say the pump failed coincidently with the trike project. 

Given the choice of putting weekend energy into this wild card or into a known quantity, I tore into the rodekyll, which I know has a bad pump driveshaft.  At least when I'm done with it I can go for a ride.  I ran out of back before the job was done so I'll finish up tomorrow.  When I verify that my fix is good I'm going to pencil in the electric oil pump I bought and see if it will drive the wheels.  If that is successful I'll strap the pump onto the 3VL TWIN and see what happens.

[rodekyll]

I got the electric pump in today.  It's smaller than an efi external fuel pump and has an attached control box to adjust the flow rate.  The plan is to try it on the rodekyll first, and if it works there, then try it on the 3VL Twin. 

The procedure is to first finish fixing the rodekyll.  I stripped the 6mm hex shaft for the atf pump a few weeks back and just got around to replacing it over the weekend.  I had also decided to change out the fuel hoses, all the fluids, and do the valve adjustment (this is a solid lifter 1100).  I should be through all that today.  Assuming it all tests out, I should be evaluating the electric pump tomorrow.

[Muzz]

I have no idea on the intricacies of what you are trying to achieve RK,  but I am absorbed in your approach to find the solution.

[Aaron D.]

I'm curious too-did you confirm that the old pump wasn't pumping? It isn't a hydraulic system after all.

[rodekyll]

Aaron, I don't know what you mean by "it isn't a hydraulic system after all."

No, I have not proven that the pump isn't pumping yet, although I'm working it down to that.  I want to get the other bike running properly.  Then as I purge the burnt fluid I'll do flow testing to see what sort of volume I ought to have at idle and compare to the trike.

I got stopped again.  The pump I bought has 1/2" straight pipe threads.  My hoses are 5/16 (8mm).  I can't get barbs in town that have a 1/2" female thread and a 5/16 barb.  The stores that stock them have empty bins, and the others sell 1/4" and 3/8" but no 5/16".  I can use a series of adapters to get there but it will cost about $35 in brass bits and make the rigid part of the assembly about 8" long -- very messy.  So I lost yesterday's project time running around town looking for unobtainium stuff instead of adjusting valves and etc.  Now I'm going to check Graingers and some other places for the $4 barbs.  That should kill another week or so while they ship.

It's always something.

[Stormtruck2]

RK, hang in there man.  Even Dr. Frankenstein (Steen dammint, Steen) had to wait until the perfect storm came along before his project came to life.    Humm, for some reason I keep seeing Dusty in the Igor role. 

[twhitaker]

but no 5/16". 

Some time back I warned you about the line(s) size on the suction. 

[rodekyll]

Some time back I warned you about the line(s) size on the suction. 

Yes, you did.  :)

But the working bike has 8mm hose (5/16) and the oem banjos are too small for 3/8 -- can't get a clamp tight on them with 3/8 hose.  So the oem intent was 8mm.  If everyone's Converts are running well with this size hose (including this one, which logged about 30k before the project), how can it also be wrong?

[twhitaker]

It's been 20 years since I've even looked at a Convert plumbing system but something in the back of my mind tells me that line was bigger. Definitely won't be the first time I was wrong. 

[mtiberio]

is it uphill from your tank to the pump (the suction hose)?

[twhitaker]

is it uphill from your tank to the pump (the suction hose)?

Kind of. The line from the 'reservoir' runs uphill but the top of the reservoir is a couple inches above the pump.

[rodekyll]

It's been 20 years since I've even looked at a Convert plumbing system but something in the back of my mind tells me that line was bigger. Definitely won't be the first time I was wrong. 

I did in fact attempt to plumb in 3/8 after your first comment about it -- I've had a niggling feeling that it's a supply side/available volume/flow issue on the upstream side of the t/c.  3/8 fit like a used condom on a new pencil.  I looked through the stash to see if I'd somehow grabbed the wrong banjos -- I have nothing else with a combination of those banjo rings and snouts (pump side snouts have VERY unique wiggles in them).  I am not resistant to trying a larger diameter hose.  I just can't see how to fit them.

I too get this deja-vu thing about a bigger supply side hose.  I think it's because the oem was a super-reinforced tube (wire braid in the plys even) with braid on the outside and huge swedged cap clamps at the banjos.  I think it might have looked bigger than it is.  I've been looking for an oem to compare ID to, but it seems they've been lost to time.

[rodekyll]

I got the rodekyll running today after changing out the hex shaft in the atf pump.  I found some interesting things:

Volume of the oem system (tank/cooler/hoses/t/c) and my system in development (radiator/hoses/t/c) are within a few ml of each other.  Tank and radiator are almost dead equal.

Properly running the system pumps about 4L/min (slightly less) with the rear wheel stopped, at idle.

Idle pressure is about

there are no bubbles in the return fluid stream, either foam or scuba.

I also noticed that it is possible to bottom out the banjo fittings before completely sealing the joints.  I got bubbles in the oem system when I first put it back together.  I was using the same crush washers.  I replaced them with three washers between the timing cover casting and the banjo to be sure it was the washers and not the bottom of the casting stopping the bolts.  Pressure came up immediately and there were no bubbles.  T/c pushes the bike like a big dog and temperatures are normal (gauge starts at 100f and doesn't move in 5 miles).

The bad news is that my starter gave up during testing.  I have to order in a replacement to continue.

The pissy news is that the front brakes are spongy every moring and I have to do a one-pump bleed at the m/c to firm them up.  It's always something.