Author Topic: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?  (Read 16164 times)

Offline LowRyter

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2016, 09:33:34 PM »
Cool Factor.  Guzzi had it...



the bike & chick are cool.....too bad some old guy is blocking the shot. 


 :laugh: :laugh: :grin: :grin: :grin: :laugh: :azn: :evil: :evil: :weiner:
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 09:34:37 PM by LowRyter »
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Offline Tom

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2016, 09:43:29 PM »
another 25 HP.  good ergos, similar styling, equal handling and you've got something.

1400 replacement (120 HP) would kill it.

They could use the 8V engine in an updated spine frame or the 1400 engine with some adjustment.  Hey.....then that would make it a SP1400 without lowers.   Bags w/lowers as an option. 
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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2016, 09:46:39 PM »
Cool Factor.  Guzzi had it...



 In the faster red color I see  :shocked:

 Dusty

Offline Tom

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2016, 09:47:50 PM »
You should see how fast your money leaves you.   :grin:
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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2016, 09:47:50 PM »

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2016, 09:57:23 PM »
for me the COOL factor of Guzzi is V Twin in the wind.. my first Guzzi on the left..




 liquid cooling? it will have to be very special for me to want one..
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Offline stevet

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2016, 11:17:37 PM »
People, people, it's not that the target markets are missed, it's that the target markets are not being aimed at.  For that matter, there is nobody in charge of taking aim.  They are stuck in the same boat, and that boat is stuck in the doldrums, no wind in the sails.

The unwashed masses of us faithful, we know about the product already.  We have for years.  We know it's history, its up and its downs.  We have our opinions on where the ship should be headed, and that is all great.

Two problems, though.
1- Piaggio isn't listening, either by ignorance or by choice.
2- Piaggio isn't marketing their product.  Not just Guzzi.  Where do you see marketing of any Piaggio products?
Same for Honda and Kawasaki and Victory and Triumph and Harley and...

You cannot watch a single commercial TV show without seeing ads for Ford pickup trucks.  You cannot thumb through any magazine with seeing ads for Ford pickup trucks.  You can not surf the internet or peruse social networking sites without seeing ads for Ford pickup trucks.  You can't drive/ride down the road without seeing billboards for Ford pickup trucks.

Same for Pepsi and Coca Cola.
Same for Apple and Android.
Same for Revlon mascara and Viagra happy pills and Oscar Meyer lunchmeat and Tide detergent.
Same for... every other product out there that succeeds in its own arena.

And just where do we see motorcycle ads?  In motorcycle magazines.  Oh, my, can you say "preach to the choir"?

When the motorcycle manufacturers finally decide that their product needs to be just as important to all consumers as Ford and Pepsi, etc. feel their products need to be important to all consumers, then, and only then, will Moto Guzzi, Suzuki, Indian/Victory, etc. have the ability to bring different, new, modern, cutting edge products to us.  Once they understand that, as a profit-earning venture, to earn revenue you must first invest in marketing of your product, and as more revenue is generated they will be able to fund the R&D folks, and the designers, and the engineers, and finally bring us an array of products we will buy and use and buy again, all while we're telling two of our friends, who will tell two more friends (any of you remember which product that tag line pimped some 30 years ago?), and suddenly Guzzi just might find itself building a whole lot more motorcycles.

Honda already knows this, in their automotive company.  You are bombarded with Honda car advertising everywhere.  You see Honda motorcycle advertising in motorcycle magazines.  So what.  Preaching to the choir.  The gene pool in the choir is getting shallow.  The motorcycle manufacturers better start marketing themselves to new customer bases that don't already know they are future motorcyclists, or they're gonna dry up and die.  Watch a few episodes of "Mad Men", you'll get an idea of what product exposure is all about.

Want to see your favorite motorcycle brand grow?  Help the non-existant marketing departments do their jobs, and tell two friends about your machine.  Then tell them again next week.  And then make sure they are telling two friends.

Be honest, there is a lot of lip service about wanting new Guzzi motorcycles on this board.  I've been here on and off for over ten years and there are a lot of people saying they'd buy, but only if...  Guzzi had several models come and go since 2000, how many of you bought any of it, or just kept riding your Bassa or LeMans III while looking for that next $300 barn find instead as you wait for that dream vaporware to appear?

They build, we buy, that's all.  We don't buy, they don't build.  They don't market to first-time buyers, they don't get new customers.  Old customers need to be added to with new ones.  Piaggio needs to start mass marketing their products.  And not just for one month in select arenas, but everywhere, all the time.  Take a lesson from the US prez-elect.  He put himself out there everywhere, every minute of the day, making himself known.  He never stopped.  Think what Piaggio and Harley and Honda could do with similar marketing campaigns.

Steve.
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Offline jas67

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2016, 08:13:02 AM »
Honda does, or at least used to know how to advertise to the non-riding public to bring more into the riding.  Back in the 60's when they entered the US motorcycle market, they had their "You meet the nicest people on a  Honda" campaign.    Then they introduced the CB450 in 1965 and the CB750 in 1969.   It was all but over for the British manufacturers. 

Hondas advertising actually brought so many people into motorcycling that they were largely responsible for the golden years for motorcycle sales in the 70's, as many other manufacturers saw their sales go up markedly too.

Back to Guzzi.   I was just at our local dealer, Europa Macchina yesterday.    I asked how the V9's were selling.    He said that they're not; not for them, not for anyone.     It sounds like it was a swing and a miss.   Maybe if they actually marketed them they'd sell?    I'd think they would sell into the same demographic as the Sportster and the Bolt, but, not if they don't market them.
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Offline Sheepdog

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2016, 08:50:50 AM »
Is it only a coincidence that we are talking about the oldest and second oldest continuously operating motorcycle manufacturers?
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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2016, 09:21:10 AM »
 I might say that how many bikes have an engine layout like Guzzi? It is different and has noticeable "feel"at low speeds...Is it too different for mainstream sport bike riders?

Offline lencap

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2016, 10:02:01 AM »
An interesting topic.

Part of the problem is overall sales are far lower after peaking in 2005 at 1.1 millions versus just under 500,000 sales in 2015.  Here's a chart showing total sales since 1992:





The industry itself is facing a problem with declining demand, and all of those bikes that were sold in 2005 and later are coming back on the market for resale.  With demand at half of the peak just over 10 years ago, and supply far higher than ever, resale will be a continuing problem.

Despite that, bikes themselves are improving significantly.  The wide array of ABS, throttle mapping, slipper clutches, electronic suspension and other aids continues to grow every year.  Add that all together and people looking to upgrade their rides face a challenge with resale that seems unlikely to improve over the near/mid term.  That isn't necessarily a disaster, but it does suggest that taking the time to get the "right bike", be it a Moto Guzzi or something else is a wise consideration since the cost of making a change is rising dramatically.

Having said all of that, I just bought a new California Custom and I don't really care about the resale risk.  I'm happy with my purchase and expect that it will be the last bike I will need or want.  It has style, comfort, safety and build quality has come a long way over the last few years.  If I need to resell quickly I expect to lose more than I would have in the past, but that's the cost of buying something that's a luxury purchase.

Offline Caffeineo

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2016, 11:27:59 AM »
<snip>
Part of the problem is overall sales are far lower after peaking in 2005 at 1.1 millions versus just under 500,000 sales in 2015.  Here's a chart showing total sales since 1992:




<snip>

The sharp drop in 2009 coincides with the housing/economic collapse. The rise up to 2005 also matches the growing economy. My understanding is that many good paying jobs have been replaced by low wage service jobs. Could it just be that a lot of people do not have the $$$ for a motorcycle?
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Offline bad Chad

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2016, 11:36:00 AM »
As the OP, I guess I need to clarify.  I am not talking about pure sport bikes, I tried to make that evident in my op.  I talking about bikes that have sporting intentions, like v11 sports, Griso, Sport 1100/Sport 1200, XR1200R ect.   These bikes are sporting, but they can in no way seriously compete with modern hard core sport bikes.  Guzzi has not made a competitive sport bike, arguably since the early 80s, so we don't need to pave new ground here.  HD hasn't since I guess the 50s.

It seems to me that sporty Guzzi and HD have never really sold well, period.  If they did they would have stuck with them. As to advertising, I'm not sure.  Which came first the Chicken or the Egg?  Guzzi did a fair amount of advertising early this year for the v9s and MGX.  They we're running full page adds in Motorcyclist and Cycle World for several months in a row, did it make any real impact, I don't know?  They received a fair amount of coverage as well for these new bikes, did it help drive sales?   I will say I understand a bit about print advertising, and Guzzi in my opinion has done a pretty poor job of picking effective copy for their adds.

Oh, and to Kev's question of using the word "stuck".  I use stuck, because, neither brand, despite attempts, have been able to successfully expand into the sporting/sport roadster market.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 11:38:57 AM by bad Chad »
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Offline stevet

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2016, 02:39:33 PM »
(snip) As to advertising, I'm not sure.  Which came first the Chicken or the Egg?  Guzzi did a fair amount of advertising early this year for the v9s and MGX.  They we're running full page adds in Motorcyclist and Cycle World for several months in a row, did it make any real impact, I don't know?  They received a fair amount of coverage as well for these new bikes, did it help drive sales?   I will say I understand a bit about print advertising, and Guzzi in my opinion has done a pretty poor job of picking effective copy for their adds.

They should be advertising monthly, through the year, in Popular Mechanics, Time, The New Yorker, Golf Digest, car mags, and any other magazine that has lots of eyeballs on it every month.  Even magazines that are traditionally aimed at women, advertise monthly- People, Women's Health, Glamour, Vogue, Cosmopolitan.  And they should not use their in-house marketing people to drive these campaigns, give it to the pros.  (We don't need another bare-footed guy dry-humping his bike, like an early Griso ad featured.  Remember that one?)  Again, putting ads only in motorcycle magazines is just pissing in the wind.  Look at all the non-motorcycle advertising going on in Rider and Motorcyclist.  And market motorcycles in non-magazine venues, because how many Generation Y folk are subscribing to print magazines?  I bet few.  Marketing, it's all about marketing.  Product placement.  I bet Guzzi would have sold a million Grisos (well...) if the "Person of Interest" TV character John Reese could have been featured on a Griso in every episode.



To all the manufacturers- stop with the $15-25000 motorcycles!  You will not survive on these, you are demonstrating this now.  Putting out about $11,000 on a new-leftover 2010 Yamaha FJR in 2011 really made me cringe.  I am not willing to spend over $15,000 on a motorcycle, and I can afford it.  I'm the target market.  Motorcycles are largely toys in North America, and getting people to spend new car prices on a toy is financial suicide.  Concentrate on 500-900cc motorcycles, under $10,000, and people will come.  Show the world that weekend exploration is only part of the joy of motorcycle ownership.  Commuting and practical general transportation should be encouraged and marketed.  Looky there, my saddlebags can hold several days of groceries! (If Royal Enfield actually marketed their products in N. America, they would sell hand over fist.)  Let Harley be Harley.  Stop mimicking Harley, it doesn't work.  (Even Harley needs to re-examine their efforts and products.)  It hasn't worked for Japan, it's not working for Europe, and even the US competition for Harley can't match their numbers.  (If Victory started chasing Honda, BMW and Triumph with affordable products, they would go far.)  Build multi-use, comfortable, economical motorcycles, market the hell out of them, and watch the customers come out.  Any business analyst undergrad student could right the ship for these companies.

And any Paul Sr. wannabees on $20k, liter-and-a-half motorcycles saying small and midsize bikes are only "chick bikes" needs to get over the fact that their own manhood is probably tiny, and just shut their collective pieholes.  You're sentiments aren't doing anything to help motorcycling.

I bet if Honda came back with that "Nicest people..." campaign, properly marketed to the non-motorcycling masses, they would get right up to the front of the pack again.

Steve.
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Offline rocker59

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2016, 03:01:39 PM »
A small company like Guzzi cannot afford to advertise to the 99% who do not ride motorcycles. They need to advertise directly to motorcyclists and people seeking to become motorcyclists. A large successful company like Harley Davidson or Honda might see a return on advertising in Cosmopolitan or Popular Mechanics, but it would be a waste on a limited budget.
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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2016, 03:27:56 PM »
 The latest figures available were from 2013 , Honda is still the big dog , 15,000,000 units sold worldwide . Betting the vast majority were those tiddlers everyone is clamoring for , but that never seem to sell in the U.S. , OR in Western Europe . Harley understands their primary market , and while they do well in those markets , they only sell about 350,000 units a year outside of America . Now , the profit margin to the MoCo on each unit sold is certainly higher than Honda's per unit , but the idea that Honda is missing the boat is inaccurate . Little motorbikes simply don't go over big here , or anywhere that folks have large amounts of disposable income .

 Dusty

Offline Daleroso

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2016, 03:31:15 PM »
Mayor & Stevet are spot on. The wife asked me if there was any difference between a BMW rally & a Guzzi rally after I attended this years national. I easily answered "yeah, the average age is older & the women are even less attractive."
There simply isn't enough diverse riders to mfg many different bikes for a small mfg soooo, target your niche & do it better than anybody else. Like Ducati (which I've never owned.)

Offline Arizona Wayne

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2016, 03:39:29 PM »
This rant comes up every X months.   :huh:  Before you can sell a MC a person has to want a MC.   I tried to get my 2 sons to become motorcyclists.  They tried it for a little while but it didn't stick. You can take the horse to the trough but you can't make them drink.

As far as selling Moto Guzzis, many dealers have tried but only a few have been successful at it.  They are an acquired taste.

Offline Daleroso

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2016, 03:47:20 PM »
PS... H-D has been "going out of business" & "doomed to failure" since 1983. Meanwhile, Reno H-D sold 4 bikes before 11 am sat morning. NO other mfg supports its owners better than H-D.

Offline Sack

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2016, 03:55:25 PM »
As with many of you I'm sure, I read other motorcycling sites and of course the magazines. It seems that most of the old farts choose Harleys and they aren't afraid to spend the dough and then put even more into them accessorizing. But those boomers, who having riding in their blood, are a dying bunch. What's coming up are fewer people interested in motorcycles so where does a manufacturer start? Try to appeal to the unknown number of prospective riders, getting them to finally pull the switch or do you cater to those known riders even as they ride off into the sunset?

To be honest I'm rather surprised that Guzzi is still with us. I'm glad they are but they cannot afford too many missteps.

It starts with name recognition outside of motorcycling circles. It continues with bikes that are compelling to target markets. If somehow their name and brand became cool that would help a lot. Here in the US motorcycles are really just toys for people who have some extra money to spend. Rather like a Jet-ski, a small speed or fishing boat or even quads to go four-wheeling somewhere. It's elective so there has to be some payback for the money spent. Status, admiration by family and friends, plain old fun factor, something to help get through traffic while having (fun?). Or just to plug a space in your garage that your wife's been complaining about! (Don't we wish!)

I wish I knew the answer.
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Offline stevet

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2016, 03:59:01 PM »
A small company like Guzzi cannot afford to advertise to the 99% who do not ride motorcycles. They need to advertise directly to motorcyclists and people seeking to become motorcyclists. A large successful company like Harley Davidson or Honda might see a return on advertising in Cosmopolitan or Popular Mechanics, but it would be a waste on a limited budget.

And how's that been working for them over the past 40 years of their existence?  Near death many times, another company buys them and puts little into them, near death again... repeat.

All large, reputable companies, even Harley and Honda, were small, struggling concerns at one time.  Getting out in front of the world, creating market buzz with quality products, is what made them successful.  Piaggio/Guzzi can't afford not to spend money on marketing and advertising.  To earn, they must spend.

Guzzi had a heck of a racing history that, I'm assuming, only helped them sell product.  Then they get out of racing a generation or two ago, and where have they been since?  Chasing market trends several years after the trend has evolved into something else.

They simply do not do enough to put themselves out in front of the world.  It will be their downfall.

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Offline stevet

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2016, 04:07:59 PM »
Speaking of marketing efforts, here is a compilation video of motorcycle tv commercials from around the globe, non-brand-specific.  Some really funny, catching, clever commercials here, creating buzz for the product.  Including a couple for Aprilia.  Nothing from Guzzi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds9PCfVqBMY

Steve.
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Offline Mr Pootle

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2016, 04:17:33 PM »
In the many years of wanting a Guzzi, and before I bought my V7, I always thought "Le Mans", never Cali. To me, a cruiser is an American aberration, like (no, I'll not go there).

Offline Sack

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2016, 04:22:17 PM »
These are different times though. For the young there are many other diversions these days. When we were growing up we played outside almost all day, even in the rain, coming home just for something to eat. We had tree forts, woods to explore, lakes to swim and fish in. Today's kids don't roam far from their parent's view, the woods we grew up within are gone, replaced by sprawling housing developments. Vacant lots we did play and ride in are long gone. Areas that were and could be decent riding areas today are now chained off with no trespassing signs
In our neighborhood many of us got our two-wheeled start on rudimentary minibikes and on go-karts. We were hungry to explore and motorcycles were the next step. The Japanese seemed to recognize this best and were there with various models in every conceivable displacement. Going from a 50 to a 90, 100 or even a 125 was just fine by us, keeping us as repeat customers for years. It was in our blood and wasn't going anywhere.
I just don't see kids interested in this kind of thing today. Their scene is getting a phone and keeping in constant touch with their friends and online activities.

..and Guzzi is only a small part of a shrinking pie to those who even care.
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Offline bad Chad

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2016, 04:38:54 PM »
I don't know Stevet, it seems hard to believe, but Guzzi left competitive racing over SIXTY years ago!  That's not a generation or two, its over Three!

At this point their racing heritage means nothing other than ancient history.
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Offline jas67

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2016, 04:41:27 PM »
I might say that how many bikes have an engine layout like Guzzi? It is different and has noticeable "feel"at low speeds...Is it too different for mainstream sport bike riders?

By layout, you mean longitudinal crankshaft and shaft drive?

Current:
Guzzi
BMW
Honda (Gold Wing, ST1100/1300, Silverwing GL500 and GL650).
Ural
Chang Jiang (clone of pre-war BMW R71)

Vintage:
Zundapp
Harley Davidson XA
Indian 841
Marusho (both V and boxer twins)
Dnper
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 05:01:53 PM by jas67 »
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Offline bad Chad

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2016, 04:45:45 PM »
By layout, you mean longitudinal crankshaft and shaft drive?

Current:
Guzzi
BMW
Honda (Gold Wing, ST1100/1300, Silverwing GL500 and GL650).
Ural
Dnper


Vintage:
Zundapp
Harley Davidson XA
Indian 841
Marusho (both V and boxer twins)

Dnper has been defunct for years right?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 04:46:29 PM by bad Chad »
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Offline jas67

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2016, 05:00:38 PM »
Dnper has been defunct for years right?

True.

Oh, and I forgot Chang Jiang CJ750, derived from the Russian IMZ, which was derived from the  pre-war BMW R71.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 05:03:56 PM by jas67 »
2017 V7III Special
1977 Le Mans
1974 Eldorado
2017 Triumph Thruxton R
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 2013 848 Evo Corse SE, 1974 750GT, 1970 Mk3d 450 Desmo, 1966 Monza 250
1975 Moto Morini 3 1/2
2007 Vespa GTS250
2016 BMW R1200RS, 80 R100S, 76 R90S ,73 R75/5
76 Honda CB400F, 67 305 Super Hawk, 68 CL175

Offline mcdammitt

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2016, 05:04:37 PM »
The Mayor has it right, we're just like the HD group, we are a dying breed. I spoke to my son about bringing in some youth to the rallys. He says it's hard to get excited about big fat bikes. Guzzi needs serious weight loss, let's go liquid.
'03 EV w/Champion sidecar
'73 Eldo
'69 Triumph Bonney
'47 Nimbus
'72 Norton Commando
'81 Laverda 1200

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2016, 05:21:18 PM »
The Mayor has it right, we're just like the HD group, we are a dying breed. I spoke to my son about bringing in some youth to the rallys. He says it's hard to get excited about big fat bikes. Guzzi needs serious weight loss, let's go liquid.
if you go liquid cooling you won't reduce weight..
MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Are Harley and Guzzi stuck in the same boat?
« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2016, 05:26:52 PM »
  We had tree forts, woods to explore, lakes to swim and fish in. 
In our neighborhood many of us got our two-wheeled start on rudimentary minibikes and on go-karts. We were hungry to explore and motorcycles were the next step. 
that was me!


I know, giving the finger from an early age..
still have my first Honda..

MINNEAPOLIS, MN

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***Wildguzzi Official Logo High Quality 5 Color Window Decals Back In Stock***
Shipping in USA Only. Awesome quality. Back by popular demand. All proceeds go back into the forum.
http://www.wildguzzi.com/Products/products.htm
Advertise Here