'04 Hydro Timing Chest Help...With Pics. Part Four. Done!

[Tom H]

I'm in need of a bit of help. I have pulled the front cover so that I could check the timing chain and the bits in there. All went well BTW.

So....

'04 Hydro with all recalls done as best as I can tell. Less than 20K miles. I have had a rattle that used to only be noticed when the bike was warmed up. Cold start, it was quiet. It may have been getting worse?? Or have I been listening for it a bit closer?? The rattle made me think of something rotating (no not the Harley style clutch noise when you pull the lever). The one time the noise seemed to be loudest was at about 1500 RPM while slowing down to a stop light.

I have tried a few things to narrow it down. At a stop, pull in the clutch lever, noise still there. At stop pull clutch lever and put bike in gear to stop the trans from rotating. Thought it may have been in the trans that's why I tried this. Even tried with a mechanics stethoscope to locate the noise while the engine was hot, no luck. Listen to the front, sounded like toward rear, listen rear sounded toward front?? AArgh!

So I finally decided to pull the front cover and see what we have in there, maybe something loose?? What I have found:

Stock Guzzi tensioner for the chain. Chain at the tensioner can be moved 5mm left to right. To measure I rested the tape measure on the top of the tensioner, pushed chain as far as I could to the left and it read 20mm, then pull the chain until the tensioner was against the block and could go no further, and it was 15mm. Could it be a chain in less than 20K miles??

Tensioner, I can easily push it off the chain and against the engine case with just one finger. How tight should the tensioner be? From what I have read about the "blade" style tensioner, it would be tough to just push it?? I don't know.

Oil pump gear. I can rock the gear ever, ever, ever so slightly. It's not the gear moving on the shaft I think. The shaft with the retaining nut is moving. How much?? You can feel it but not really see it. Would this year have the bad pump?? Or is a very, very little movement normal???

To solve the noise.......Could the tensioner be tapping the case as the chain spins? Could the oil pump bearings or bushings be bad and rattling??

My next step is to pull the gears and inspect the pump if the replies point to the pump. Looks like a project to get the chain and gears off. I seem to remember a post that said I can change to a blade style tensioner without pulling the chain. Is that true??

Hopefully someone has some help for me with this!!!

Thank you!!
Tom

[80CX100]

Hey Tom,      I don't know if there is any difference between the timing chest on your bike and my 1980 Lemans CX100, but I think that part of the motor is very similar.

     Fwiw, when I rebuilt various parts of my bike it had under 25k miles, the stock timing chain adjuster was doing nothing and the chain was relatively floppy, I don't recall how bad it really was, but I think I do remember seeing signs that the chain had worn against the case in a spot?

     I was reluctant to pull the gears and screw it up, so I cut the old chain off and cut a new timing chain to size from Mercedes Benz 6&8 cyclinder gas engine chain stock, it came with snap ring master links,,, pros and cons with doing it this way,,, but I figure if it was good enough for MB, probably good enough for MG.

     I busted the first Valtec tensioner trying to jam it in place,,, 2nd one went in fine with a bit more patience http://wildguzzi.com/forum/Smileys/default/violent1.gif

     The end result was a nicely tensioned chain compared to what was in there previously,,, it might be wishful thinking on my part,,, but the engine seemed less "clackity clackity" to me,,, and the accuracy of the timing MUST have improved significantly, jmho.

      fwiw ymmv

      Kelly

[Doug McLaren]

On my 1100 the timing chain was flapping about exactly as you describe at just over 20,000. The tensioner, ha-ha, was doing nothing. I just replaced it with a Valtec type, if my feeble memory serves me well I'm pretty sure I had to pull the sprockets off to get to the tensioner mounting bolts.

[Chuck in Indiana]

You're there. Go ahead and replace it with a Valtec.. they're cheap. I, personally, would *never* grind on any internal part of an engine. Carborundum is harder than any part of the engine. No matter what you think, you won't get it all when cleaning up.  Where's the first place it will go? The oil pump. It sees unfiltered oil. It's truly no big deal to pull the three sprockets and reinstall them.

[fotoguzzi]

  It's truly no big deal to pull the three sprockets and reinstall them.

and they are keyed so you can't really screw it up as long as the two marks are in line.

[Tom H]

Thanks guys. Looks like I'll pull the gears to do the tensioner. Then I can have a look at the oil pump. I had mentioned that I could feel it move a very little bit. I mentioned this to my friend and he said to see how a new one feels. Then I thought about it. If a new one in my hand had the same feel as mine when installed, I would never feel the very little movement while in my hand. But since the chain will be off, might as well check it while I'm in there.

Thanks again,
Tom

[80CX100]

and they are keyed so you can't really screw it up as long as the two marks are in line.

Hey Tom, Foto and Chuck are right about the shaft keys and grinding inside the engine not being a good idea. What went into my thought process and decision to do it that way at the time, was reading discussions about one of the shaft keys being a slippery half moon shape that you could inadvertently push out of place unknowingly.

At the time I had just rebuilt my wood splitter with a new engine and hydraulic pump, the shaft key for the pump was a simple square rectangular one, and I had a hell of a time keeping it from being pushed out whenever I tried to mount the pump,,,, so I didn't have a lot of confidence in my ability to mount an endless chain, line up the sprockets and keep this elusive half moon key in place as well, especially if somehow I could push it out of place and not know about it.

When I cut the chain, I took what steps I could to mitigate the carnage, I used a small dremel style diamond cut off wheel and tackled a link on the bottom right and had a triple layer of protection in behind it, cut up plastic bread bag, layer of paper towel, and then an oil soaked paper towel surrounding my work area,,, and wiped everything down afterwards,,, but they are right, best way to do it, would be to pull the sprockets and use an endless chain, being careful of the timing marks and ensuring that the shaft keys are in place properly at the end.

Good luck with it.

Kelly

[Scud]

I did this on a 2002 V11 engine recently. I was a little intimidated, but Chuck and others gave great advice and I got it done. Here's a link to the V11LeMans forum, where I documented what I learned - then Pete Roper came along and explained how to do it even easier...

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18805&p=215951

I found the biggest hurdle was getting the nut off the crankshaft - needed a super-deep 32mm socket.

You'll also need a shorter bolt for one spot.

[fotoguzzi]

there's only one woodruff key under the crank sprocket.

I have a deep 32mm socket you could borrow but you can find one at Graiger or Deleguard (sp) tool store if you have one nearby.

[rodekyll]

I agree that pulling the gear wheels is the way to do it.  They are indexed, as folks above have said.  As long as you don't move the cam or crank the timing will remain correct.  The crank woodruff key can't get unknowingly lost IF YOU LOOK FOR IT.  It's visible and will either be there or not.

Pull the oil pump and take a look, too.  I had a rattle up front that came from the pump as it ate itself.

For the crank nut a plumber's socket often works.  I use one at home. 

I just did this job on my new breva engine, not at home (just gota keep saying "new breva engine" on account of it's the first nice thing I've gotten that I didn't have to make myself).  The plumber's socket was not available.  I went to Autozone and "rented" a deep 32mm for $20.  When I brought it back they returned the money.

Hefty torque on cam and crank nuts.  Have a plan and maybe a friend handy.

Finally -- I was helping a friend chase a low rpm rattle.  After much drama and blood it turned out to be the pcv valve in the breather clattering.   

[Scud]

Tom - where are you in So Cal?

I'm in Carlsbad, but I need to go to LAX tomorrow morning. I'd be happy to loan the socket as well. If you are not too far off the the route from Carlsbad to LAX, I can deliver. I might even have an spare of the shorter bolt you will need.

Send me a PM if you want to coordinate.

[Kiwi_Roy]

You can undo the crankshaft nut using a regular 32mm 3/4" drive socket. Grind a couple of flats on the outside for a wrench. Wrap some tape around the shaft to protect the surface.


Sent from my shoe phone!

[Chuck in Indiana]

Finally -- I was helping a friend chase a low rpm rattle.  After much drama and blood it turned out to be the pcv valve in the breather clattering.   

I chased a harmonic vibration. Tore it down twice, balanced the entire rotating assembly. It was a bent crash bar. 
 

[Tom H]

Again thanks to all.

I'll borrow the socket from Scud.  I will buy one so that if I ever need it again, it will be ready.

It does look straight forward to remove and replace the gears. It's the nuts that look tuff to do. I'm dong this in the frame, so gravity could work against me a bit.

Since I'm working on this while the engine is in the frame. The only way to hold the engine from turning that I can see is to put the bike in 5th gear and hold the foot brake. Any better thought other than a board through the rear wheel spokes??? I did the brake idea to get the alternator nut off.

For the chain, does the measurement of the slop look fine? How long "should" they last?? I need to order the tensioner, should I just get the chain as well??

I had to replace the chain on my BMW. I bought the master link version. To remove the old one I used bolt cutters to cut the old chain, Not easy, but do able. The hard part was installing the hairpin clip.

RK: The only PCV looking valve on my '04 is in the fuel line from under the front of the tank that goes back to the emissions can under the seat. Where is the one in the engine breather system?


Thanks again!!
Tom

[rodekyll]

The cam nut is on at about 110# and the crank nut is at about 90# (or vise-versa, but my point is they're ON there.)  I use a rattle gun to remove them.  To install I sometimes remove the starter and jamb the ring gear with a screwdriver.  Torqueing the nuts is easier in situ than on the bench, but you still need a friend to hold the screwdriver in the ring gear while you do chin-ups on the torque wrench.

There are two possibilities for the breather/pcv.  The older ones have it in a vertical pipe in the bellhousing (original breather side design since the loops).  The pipe sticks up a couple inches from the bellhousing and is about 17mm in diameter.  A rubber hose runs from there to the top frame tube, just behind the head stock.  The PCV valve lives in the top of the pipe and often gets stuck in the rubber hose when you disconnect it.  The one we chased down clattered like a wrist pin, but could only be heard at lower rpm and under certain breather loads.

Sometime in about '03-ish the pcv got put in the timing cover.  If your timing cover has no big rubber hose attached to it, you've got the other kind.  That's how I determined my hydro to be an '02.  Its case has the vertical pipe through the bell housing, and the timing cover is smooth -- early style.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I believe the chain will last the life of the bike.
I replaced one in my VII Sport at 80,000 km, you could hardly tell the difference between old and new. The original tensioner was doing a poor job so I replaced it.

The same tensioner in my 100,000 mile California II was working so well I decided to leave it.

You asked how to lock the motor up while you undo the nut, I wouldn't have done this if I wasn't going to change the chain.
Yes, top gear with the brake On will hold it for you.

[Tom H]

RK,

I have the hose from the front cover to the large frame tube and connects just behind the fork bearings. No valve that I can find in the engine breather system.

With this said, when I took the bike to a very good shop in Signal Hill Ca. they thought it might be a PCV valve if I remember correctly, this was about 6 months ago. I think one of the guys said, wait this bike does not use the PCV in the breather.

To all,

Before I take a screwdriver to wedge and a hammer to tap on the spacer that is on the crankshaft. Is there a better way to remove that long spacer if it will not slide off with finger pull??

Also related to the spacer. The microfisch shows a O ring between the spacer and the alternator chunk bolted to the crank. Can't find a O ring there. Could the O ring be between the spacer and the gear?? Where should it be???

When I removed the timing cover, it had a metal gasket. I bought a fiber gasket that was listed for the bike. Should I reuse the metal or use the new fiber??? I can tell it originally had a fiber. Which should I use??

Hate to have to ask these simple to some questions. I prefer to ask if I don't know how to do something than to mess it up because I didn't ask. Manuals only tell you so much, they never seem to do as well as real experience.

Again....Thank you all very much for the help!!!!!
Tom

[Tom H]

Thanks Kiwi for the pic. I should have the proper long socket here on Sunday. Thanks for the info on the chain and confirming the way to lock the engine with the brake. RK's would work as well I think, did the like on my loop to do a few things. The brake seems safer to the bike and it's bits with the high torque of these nuts. Would love to have a two or three tooth "plug" that would HOLD into the timing hole on the trans bell housing and lock the flywheel ring gear. Might have to look at making something for the future?? Or maybe make something that fits in through the starter hole??

Tom

[rodekyll]

I agree that there might not be a pcv valve in the front breather-type.  There isn't one listed in the parts book.  That's why I focused my comment on the rear one. 

If you drilled a hole in the lump of the transmission bellhousing that the starter slips into you could make a stop out of a bolt with a nut inside and a nut outside the casting.  Whittle a flat into the bolt end, thread one nut way up the bolt shaft, drop it through the hole you drilled, add the other nut and tighten with the flat between the ring gear teeth. 

I cut that part off of an early 5-speed that I didn't want to sell (  ) and drilled holes for either the bolt or a screwdriver, depending on how many hands I need on the wrench.  This is a good bench solution.  In situ, doing the same thing on your bellhousing would accomplish the same end.

[Tom H]

Scud dropped of the correct socket today. THANK YOU VERY VERY VERY MUCH :1: :1: :1:

I figured out the spacer on the crank on how to remove it. Used a wedge tip putty knife and tapped it with a hammer.

The O ring, those wily Italians. Instead of fitting it like a Loop, they hid it IN the spacer on the crank.

Now to break those nuts loose and see what we can find.

BTW: There was a picture of the cam retainer somewhere here that showed the difference between a used one and or OLD VERSION comparing it to a NEW VERSION. Anyone know where that picture is? I want to check the cam retainer while I'm in there.

Thanks again!!!
Tom

[Bill Owens]

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=85778.0

[Tom H]

Bill, that was the one.

Broke loose the nuts tonight. The rear brake wouldn't hold the engine. Pulled the timing hole rubber plug and used a large screwdriver to hold the flywheel.

Tomorrow the gears are coming off.

Tom

[Scud]

Good news. Looking forward to seeing her back on the road again.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Bill, that was the one.

Broke loose the nuts tonight. The rear brake wouldn't hold the engine. Pulled the timing hole rubber plug and used a large screwdriver to hold the flywheel.

Tomorrow the gears are coming off.

Tom

That's been working since the loops.  Nothin to it..

[Tom H]

Tonight I pulled the chain and gears. Pretty darn easy. Now if the install goes as well

So here is what I have found:

The timing wheel has a scuff as well as the cam retainer. Not a gouge or the like, just a scuff that would not wire brush off. The retainer does not show wear as far as I can see or feel. The pic of the retainer is where it looks scuffed.



The chain tensioner looked fine as long as you want a loose feeling chain tensioner. I mentioned previously as to the how much pressure it took to move it. No scuffs on the block from chain slap or from the tensioner hitting the block.
From the link on the tensioner, does the Valtec style really make a bunch of noise like a blower drive??? I needs  to know.

So I played with the oil pump while it was attached to the block. While rotating it counter clockwise, it seemed OK. While rotating clockwise it felt like it was getting stuck. Like a bearing or a burr or the like. So I pulled the pump. I hope the pics come out, I think I know the verdict on the 20K mile pump:







I think the block is fine, scuffing but you can't really feel it. If I had a mill, I would consider polishing? the area, but I have been shown worse that function fine. The pump housing around the drive gear looks OK and the needle style bearings feel OK? But the "idler?" gear bushing, shaft and pump housing is shot I think????

I think this is what was causing my rattle noise. When I rotated the pump shaft, it had the same rattle feel as the rattle sound I think.

Is this pump shot?? Is it repairable??

Looking to confirm before I buy a new pump.

Thanks to all again!!
Tom

[rodekyll]

I could show you worse out of a hydro but my photo archives are not accessible.  that's not to say yours is good.  It isn't.  That's what happens when the cam recall isn't done well.  Either the shrapnel wasn't completely cleaned out, the pump wasn't inspected and replaced, or both.  That doesn't look bad enough to have gotten into the main and rod bearings though.   

Mine was so bad and passed so much crap through it that the gear faces looked like rat tail combs from rubbing on the steel bits embedded in the aluminum.  The bearing rollers looked like tiny baseball bats or chess pieces.  Very disappointing to look at, and so very easy to have avoided.

[Tom H]

A little more info. The bike had about 11K miles when I bought it, now has about 20K. The Hydro valve/cam recall looks like it had been done, at least the valve hats had been changed to the aluminum looking ones.
EDIT: I should have said that the top end at least had been done, new valve hats, rockers and the adjusters are snapped like they should be. I can't confirm the bottom end yet.

Guzzi records for my VIN only show the triple clamp. I'm trying to figure out a reason for the failure of the oil pumps "idler" gear shaft.

With the 11K miles, and not knowing how recent to the 11K the recall was done. Did a massive cam failure show up in less than 11K throwing bits though the engine?? From what I've read, I thought the miles were much higher for one that WOULD fail??

I recently pulled the connecting rod bearings and looked at the half on the rod cap. No metal looking bits. The pan has looked clean each time I changed the oil.

Could this just be an oil pump failure???

I'm looking for a "yeah, the oil pumps from then were junk" sort of response to this.

Not looking forward to pulling Hydro valve rocker pins, loops are easy as you can loosen the adjuster. Do I NEED to pull the cam?? Or was this a simple oil pump issue??

Thanks to all again,
Tom

[rodekyll]

The hydros started eating themselves as soon as they were first started.  Horrible development q/c if they didn't catch it before going into production, since 100% of the engines were affected, and affected immediately.  Then they (in my opinion) issued a half-azzed recall procedure that needed a recall procedure to fix.  But neither recall addressed the pump issue, and my experience was that MG didn't care about the extended damage.

During that period there were some unscrupulous dealers that only did the visible part of the recall, or just did it on paper and collected the cash.  When they sent in a VIN for re-imbursement on the recall, that VIN was "retired" from the list and no longer eligible for any consideration/compensation/redo/support from MG.  They wouldn't even tell me who allegedly did mine.  So then it was on the owners to find the kit (over 100 parts and tools and many hundreds of $$$) and do it themselves.

Mine was trashed in 12k miles.  Rods and mains as well as the pump.  Crank needed polishing, but maybe should have been ground and new undersized bearings installed.  The shrapnel plugged the filter, which went into bypass and let chunks go through everything.  If the recall had been properly done and the filter changed, innards cleaned, and the pump pulled and looked at, the damage would probably been avoided.

Sorry, it's the same oil pump they've used since the early T's.  In my opinion the pump was a design flaw with the hydro, but not junk in and of itself.  They added 4 oil leaks and did nothing for oil capacity.  The pump design was changed completely for the next generation of engine, but it doesn't fit the hydro.  MMnorth can tell you how the new design worked out in the Norge.  I was there when he opened up the engine and helped him count the pieces.

It's not far from where you are to having the cam out.  If you have curiosity about its condition, now is the time.  If the sump was pristine and the rod bearings not embedded with chunks, you might be ok.  Or not.

It's not too hard.  I did it in situ.

[Tom H]

If I decide to pull the cam out, will the cam contact tappets fall into the engine, or will they stay in place? I'll rotate the cam and crank to top dead and pull the rockers and their pins, out with the push rods and hydro tappets. I would like to leave the barrels and heads in place. Can pulling the cam be done this way?

A silly question. Right now I have blocks supporting the front of the engine so I can't just remove the pan. Do I NEED to support the front of the engine? I think the answer is yes.

Thanks again,
Tom

[rodekyll]

If you pull the inserts out of the lifters, you can hook the cam followers with a piece of safety wire and hold them out of cam's way as it is pulled.  Greasing the bores helps keep them from falling, too.  I did mine with heads in place.  I had the benefit of the recall kit tool set.  If you drop one into the sump it's interesting trying to reinsert it.  I dropped one.  I don't want to drop another one.

If the pan is still on, how do you know what's in there?

I'd support the engine somehow when removing the pan.  I suppose others would not bother.