Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?

[Bonaventure]

What is it within the 1200 8V motor that calls for the kind of high High Temp High Shear (HTHS) film strength that a synthetic 10W60 is packin'? 

Is that thick of a spec simply a hold-over from the flat tappet valve train days?  Are the main bearing loads that high that a very high HTHS lubricant is called for?  Or is it due to loose machining tolerances that may be a necessary element of the engine design?

My journey to understand Guzzi's continues . . . 


   

[timonbik]

Somebody's poking the bear!!!!!

[Idontwantapickle]

Pete Roper can share some photos of why I said never use dino oil in an 8 valve. The oil flows through passages in the heads to cool the really hot stuff. Dino will coke up and then before long the whole engine is destroyed by the chunks of carbon now circulating.
Oil is specified for a reason. Just use it.

[Bonaventure]

Good info.  When it comes to synthetics, I'm all about using a "true" synthetic that uses either PolyAlphaOlefin (POA) or Ester as the base stock.  Is the AGIP 10W60 a true blue synthetic using either PAO or Ester? 

[roadscum]

if I tell ya I'm gonna have to kill ya. 

You may wanta ask the nice folks in Mandello, only they know for sure...... maybe not???? 

Paul

[Lannis]

Good info.  When it comes to synthetics, I'm all about using a "true" synthetic that uses either PolyAlphaOlefin (POA) or Ester as the base stock.  Is the AGIP 10W60 a true blue synthetic using either PAO or Ester?

The manual says:  "SAE 10W - 60. As an alternative to the recommended oils, you can also use brand name oils with performance that meets or exceeds the CCMC G-4 A.P.I. SG standards."

Is there a religious or personal reason why your oil would have to made with PAO or Ester?      I think all that's included in the spec .....

Lannis

[rodekyll]

Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?

I'm not sure 10w60 comes in dino.  I've never seen it.

[pete roper]

10/60 is specified to allow trolls to annoy people by asking stupid questions on Internet bb's.

[Huzo]

10/60 is specified to allow trolls to annoy people by asking stupid questions on Internet bb's.

What is the term "Dino" mean ?

[Tom]

non-synthetic oil.

[Muzz]

What is the term "Dino" mean ?

Dinosaur

[Kiwi Dave]

The only place I could find 10W-60 oil in LA years ago was at a BMW car dealer.  Aren't they water-cooled?

[leafman60]

What is it within the 1200 8V motor that calls for the kind of high High Temp High Shear (HTHS) film strength that a synthetic 10W60 is packin'? 

Is that thick of a spec simply a hold-over from the flat tappet valve train days?  Are the main bearing loads that high that a very high HTHS lubricant is called for?  Or is it due to loose machining tolerances that may be a necessary element of the engine design?

My journey to understand Guzzi's continues . . . 


 

Bonaventure, welcome to this Guzzi forum!

I don't think you are a troll and your question is not a stupid one.

That and other questions about oil have been asked many times and the answers are legion -if not conclusive.

Type 10W60 in the search box and you'll turn up many lonnnng threads regarding this.

The 10W60 spec is a very broad one that provides a broad range of protection for a broad range of operating environments.

.

[Tom]

The only place I could find 10W-60 oil in LA years ago was at a BMW car dealer.  Aren't they water-cooled?

"Wait.....what...... BMW makes cars?"   

[Randown]

What is it within the 1200 8V motor that calls for the kind of high High Temp High Shear (HTHS) film strength that a synthetic 10W60 is packin'? 

Is that thick of a spec simply a hold-over from the flat tappet valve train days?  Are the main bearing loads that high that a very high HTHS lubricant is called for?  Or is it due to loose machining tolerances that may be a necessary element of the engine design?

My journey to understand Guzzi's continues . . . 

It's a fairly safe bet that the spec is to cover temperatures the oil will encounter through any season or any climate in any country.

IF you wanted to dawn your white lab coat, take some temperature readings, consult some vis charts it's likely you COULD get away with running something other than the factory spec'd lube, like a conventional 10W40 in certain climates or seasons.

It seems the Guzzi engineers have opted to spec the 10W60 & let the oil temps soar in the summer though. Maybe they felt this would help offset condensation issues that can occur in cooler climates / seasons or during short hops. Though, I would think the condensation issues could have been mitigated with an oil thermostat, I believe some have looked into this & even retrofitted their oil cooling system with one.

It really seems that if the engineers controlled the oil temperature within a narrower range the 10W60 spec wouldn't have been necessary but then that would add mfg cost & weight.

[rodekyll]

My 1200 Breva engine has a thermostatically operated oil cooler.  It still runs 10w60.

[Idontwantapickle]

 it's likely you COULD get away with running something other than the factory spec'd lube, like a conventional 10W40 in certain climates or seasons.

It really seems that if the engineers controlled the oil temperature within a narrower range the 10W60 spec wouldn't have been necessary but then that would add mfg cost & weight.

No, you can't run 10w40. Conventional oil will cause engine failure. This is well documented here and elsewhere.
And no, the engineers are not dodging the issue. The oil IS the coolant.

[Randown]

No, you can't run 10w40. Conventional oil will cause engine failure. This is well documented here and elsewhere.
And no, the engineers are not dodging the issue. The oil IS the coolant.

Yes, you can run 10W40 under appropriate ambient conditions. The engine won't know the difference. Do you realize that a 10W40 under those appropriate ambient conditions has a higher vis than a 10W60 in typical summer conditions?

The question is can you as an owner be trusted to monitor temps and or pressures & swap out the oil to a higher vis as necessary? Guzzi says no you can't be. I don't blame them for that.

[beetle]

Dusty, please kill this thread immediately.

[Bonaventure]

Thanks all for the answers.  So is there a synthetic 10W60 that is a little less money than the AGIP product?  What do you guys think of the Liqui Moly 10W60 motorcycle oil made in Germany?  Seems to be a bit less cash than AGIP and in Germany if it's labeled synthetic then it has to be made from PAO or Ester ... I think.

I believe NAPA auto parts stores here in USA carry the Liqui Moly 10W60 4T synthetic motorcycle oil. 

[Randown]

Dusty, please kill this thread immediately.

Why the drama? It's just a discussion.

[Ncdan]

Let this thread run as some of the questions I have had about the oil I need to use inmy Calvin may be answered, like why would Mobil heavy duty 15-50 synthetic not be ok in my 2007 Calvin?

[Bonaventure]

Just checked eBay and looks like the genuine ENI AGIP 10W60 synthetic is actually less $$ than all competing 10W60's except Motul 7100 which is only a few dollars less for a 4 liter pack.   

[Lannis]

Let this thread run as some of the questions I have had about the oil I need to use inmy Calvin may be answered, like why would Mobil heavy duty 15-50 synthetic not be ok in my 2007 Calvin?

How would anyone know that?   No one has done a long term controlled study on the difference in engine wear between 15W-50 and the specified 10W-60 in your bike.

SOMEONE can always post up and say "I use re-refined chain saw oil in my Cal 1400 and it runs great", but that doesn't really mean anything, does it?

Lannis

[Arizona Wayne]

Guys, use a little common sense.  10W-60 oil is to cover the mfg. warranty no matter what ambient temp. you run your MC motor at.  It's that simple.  This BS that it has to be 10W because some of the passages are so little is comical.  Does that mean @ 105F when you start your MC the oil is going to be @ 10W no matter the ambient.  No it's not.  It automatically adjusts thickness according to the temp it's in.  At 105F it might be 40W, but you can't tell.  Otherwise why do they say it can change viscosity as needed?  Does that say some passages are so small the oil won't get thru at such a higher viscosity.   No, but you've been conditioned to think so.  Depending what the ambient temps might be where you ride is what matters.   10W-60 is a catch all oil.

[Ncdan]

How would anyone know that?   No one has done a long term controlled study on the difference in engine wear between 15W-50 and the specified 10W-60 in your bike.

SOMEONE can always post up and say "I use re-refined chain saw oil in my Cal 1400 and it runs great", but that doesn't really mean anything, does it?

Lannis

it's known as experience Lannis, you know that thing old guys accumulate when they try several different ways or methods of doing things over the years. Scientific study's are not always your best form of information but thanks for the response as it helped a lot;)

[Kev m]

Yes, you can run 10W40 under appropriate ambient conditions. The engine won't know the difference. Do you realize that a 10W40 under those appropriate ambient conditions has a higher vis than a 10W60 in typical summer conditions?

The question is can you as an owner be trusted to monitor temps and or pressures & swap out the oil to a higher vis as necessary? Guzzi says no you can't be. I don't blame them for that.

Ok, I'm always willing to learn.

I've done some reading over the years on oils, and on differences between synthetics and conventional oils and how they do it don't break-down.

With regards to viscosity though I still can't seem to get it straight. Maybe I need to go back to Bobstheoilguy and read some stickies again.

I suspect the majority of the public is like me and doesn't understand viscosities correctly either.

The oversimplification we're told is that the first # (W) represents how well it will flow cold, and the second number is how well it protects hot.

Is that too simplified? Is there a better way to understand it?

And if that's remotely accurate, how would a 10-40 ever protect better than a 10-60?

They both flow the same a lower temps, and the 40 is never "thicker" at higher temps right?

I think there's a reason we are starting to see fewer of those ambient temperature oil charts being included in OEM materials, especially if they spec synthetic oil in the first place.

But I'm willing to learn.

Thoughts?

[Ncdan]

Guys, use a little common sense.  10W-60 oil is to cover the mfg. warranty no matter what ambient temp. you run your MC motor at.  It's that simple.  This BS that it has to be 10W because some of the passages are so little is comical.  Does that mean @ 105F when you start your MC the oil is going to be @ 10W no matter the ambient.  No it's not.  It automatically adjusts thickness according to the temp it's in.  At 105F it might be 40W, but you can't tell.  Otherwise why do they say it can change viscosity as needed?  Does that say some passages are so small the oil won't get thru at such a higher viscosity.   No, but you've been conditioned to think so.  Depending what the ambient temps might be where you ride is what matters.   10W-60 is a catch all oil.

Wayne, best response I've read thus far reguards to the post. As always oil questions automatically spark off controversy at best and heated arguments at worst. Some of the guys don't take in consideration that in some parts of the country the required 10-60 racing brands are hard to find and must be ordered at a heafty price and yes I'd pay it if necessary. However anyone in their right mind don't want to piss away hard bucks if not necessary. Lol, I don't want to irritate none of these old Guzzi guys with dumb questions as I may need them to help me with things I already know sometime:(

[Lannis]

it's known as experience Lannis, you know that thing old guys accumulate when they try several different ways or methods of doing things over the years. Scientific study's are not always your best form of information but thanks for the response as it helped a lot;)

Yes, I've heard a lot of that "Old Guy Experience" over the years, so much of it have I heard that I've become an Old Guy myself.

I have had Old Guys tell me with dead seriousness:

1) "Watch out for that front brake, it'll throw you over the handlebars!   Just use it to hold the bike at a stop."

2) "Got to have a heavy bike, they hold the road better.   Old Harley will ALWAYS handle better than them light Jap things, 'cause their weight helps them hold the road."

3) "Motor Guzzy, huh?   Yep, they use tractor engines in those, that engine came straight out of a tractor."

4) "Car in front of me slowed down too fast, so I had to Lay 'Er Down.  Yeah boy, saved my ass, had to Lay 'Er Down."

And on and on.   So I guess I take the Voice of Experience with a grain of salt, since all the young talk-and-trousers brigade eventually grow up and become the seen-it-all-done-it-all B.S. brigade!

Especially about a highly technical subject like metallurgy and lubrication thereof .... 

Lannis

[Ncdan]

Yes, I've heard a lot of that "Old Guy Experience" over the years, so much of it have I heard that I've become an Old Guy myself.

I have had Old Guys tell me with dead seriousness:

1) "Watch out for that front brake, it'll throw you over the handlebars!   Just use it to hold the bike at a stop."

2) "Got to have a heavy bike, they hold the road better.   Old Harley will ALWAYS handle better than them light Jap things, 'cause their weight helps them hold the road."

3) "Motor Guzzy, huh?   Yep, they use tractor engines in those, that engine came straight out of a tractor."

4) "Car in front of me slowed down too fast, so I had to Lay 'Er Down.  Yeah boy, saved my ass, had to Lay 'Er Down."

And on and on.   So I guess I take the Voice of Experience with a grain of salt, since all the young talk-and-trousers brigade eventually grow up and become the seen-it-all-done-it-all B.S. brigade!

Especially about a highly technical subject like metallurgy and lubrication thereof .... 

Lannis
I understand and spoken like a true gentleman. Hats off to you Sir:)