Why push button start NGC car?

[Lannis]

Have prop started a Cessna 182 a number of times, makes me very nervous.
GliderJohn

Heck, prop-starting a Fox .35 makes ME nervous .... !

Lannis

[Chuck in Indiana]

Would a airplane count? 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3zXkVQnVmuo

Yeah, baby! What a rare bird. Thanks for that. I've cranked an inertia starter a few times. It'll make a man out of you..

[Rough Edge racing]

The starter button was on the floor on old cars, because when you pushed it, a big metal bar actually went across from battery positive to the starter.   There wasn't even a relay.   For all I know, there might not even have been a solenoid .... !

No "startus interruptus", no batteries failing in remotes ....

Lannis

For GM there was no actual solenoid, all mechanical action hooked to a switch on the starter motor..And then for some cars was a dash mounted starter button like early 50's GM......Hey, nothing more reliable than a kick start bike and many of them don't need a battery, right 

[Lannis]

For GM there was no actual solenoid, all mechanical action hooked to a switch on the starter motor..And then for some cars was a dash mounted starter button like early 50's GM......Hey, nothing more reliable than a kick start bike and many of them don't need a battery, right 

Most of my bikes don't have an electric starter.  I will admit to having one on my Norton, which is sort of backward; although the 650s and 600s aren't too bad to kick, the 850 is making me show my age.

I've never had much luck with battery-less bikes, that depend on a capacitor storing up charge from the generator or alternator to fire the bike.   Batteries definitely make life a little easier.

I know, that's SO 1920's ... !

Lannis

[John A]

On the old B52's and KC135's with PW J57's they had a fitting for a starter cartridge which consisted of 5 lbs of black powder to supply high volume, low pressure gas to start them. Used them on alert and if we went to Africa or anywhere else that didn't have a blower unit. Lots of smoke https://youtu.be/WQWz7Svmlj4

[ohiorider]

Heck, prop-starting a Fox .35 makes ME nervous .... !

Lannis

Me too!  And I've got a scar from a backfire from an old Fox 35 (or .29)  I lost a couple of old Fox engines I bought in the mid 1950s (.19 and.35)  Still have my 'new' .35, purchased in 1983, and flown on a Sterling profile model (Hellcat.)  May have to do a memorial flight one of these times, after a few patches to brittle silkspan.





Older brother, youngest son, and me - 1983

[Rough Edge racing]

On the old B52's and KC135's with PW J57's they had a fitting for a starter cartridge which consisted of 5 lbs of black powder to supply high volume, low pressure gas to start them. Used them on alert and if we went to Africa or anywhere else that didn't have a blower unit. Lots of smoke!

  The British used that system on some of their WW2 piston engine planes due to lack of materials for electric starters....In the film with Jimmy Stewart where the planes crashed in the desert and the survivors rebuilt it, he uses the last cartridge to start the thing..

[Lannis]

On the old B52's and KC135's with PW J57's they had a fitting for a starter cartridge which consisted of 5 lbs of black powder to supply high volume, low pressure gas to start them. Used them on alert and if we went to Africa or anywhere else that didn't have a blower unit. Lots of smoke!

First time I watched it, the most suspenseful scene in any movie ever ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IACjOvyx5hs

Can't swear to its technical accuracy, but then, it's a movie, isn't it ... ?

And actually, Jimmy uses the second-to-last of 7 cartridges to start it ....

Lannis

[John A]

  The British used that system on some of their WW2 piston engine planes due to lack of materials for electric starters....In the film with Jimmy Stewart where the planes crashed in the desert and the survivors rebuilt it, he uses the last cartridge to start the thing..

Yep, the cartridges he used were different and smaller than the ones I'm familiar with which were about 6 inches in diameter . I've not seen one for a piston engine.Inertia starter would have been good there, maybe the reason one was not fitted was weight and it added an element to the plot

[Guzzi Gal]

Reason is simple, and AWESOME!

You just have to carry the damn thing (in a pocket, a bag, wherever), then walk up, open the door, sit down, press a button.

It's fantastic.

I was so pissed to go BACK to a regular key with my Wrangler two years ago.

^^^ :1:  ^^^

What I want to know is if You can still wack it with a wrench to get it to turn over?   

[Rough Edge racing]

 Some of my junk has a "touch" start....

      https://www.flickr.com/photos/75289626@N08/15262178918/

[John A]

^^^ :1:  ^^^

What I want to know is if You can still wack it with a wrench to get it to turn over?   

I'm sure that's the case, anyway the jack handle doubles as an engine crank, doesn't it?

[Tusayan]

One tangentially related note to the OP: I believe your 2016 Mazda 3 Sport has GPS, whether you know or not.  All it needs is the SD data card to work.  If it's not already been turned on, buy the latest SD card on E-Bay for $80, stick it in the slot and you'll have working GPS.  Or pay the dealer $400 plus an hour of labor do the same thing,,,

[steven c]

 I found that out on one of the Mazda Forums, good deal.

[Wayne Orwig]

Just ran into this with a friends Honda.

Went on a trip, I am driving. She gets out and goes in the store. She has the fob, and we don't think about it. I drive away to the parking garage, with a dog in the car. Park, and shut off the car. Oops, now I am screwed. Dog in the car, hot sun, can't roll down the windows, and can't start the car. The car is now a massive piece of anchor. I can't leave the car because the dog is in it. What a pain in the rear. Eventually she finds us. It is my understanding that there are a number of deaths now related to people getting out of a running push button car, and later they die from CO poisoning, with the engine continuing to run in the attached garage.

Just a week ago, the battery in this one year old car died (likely due to the excessively heavy electronic crap overload). She has a fob, but no actual key to open the door and the hood. Eventually, I found that you can pry open the fob and there is a real key buried inside of it. She thought the only recourse was to call and wait on AAA. I simply jump started it and took it to the dealer for a warranty. (those little jump start packs are really handy.)

Next thing you know, they will have transmissions that shift themselves.  The dumbing down process.

[Sheepdog]

A car/truck was a luxury item when I was a kid. No more. As cars become viewed as appliances, enthusiast’s features are the first thing to go...

[Lannis]

Some of my junk has a "touch" start....

      https://www.flickr.com/photos/75289626@N08/15262178918/

Nice smooth sounding motor ... although they'll run a surprisingly short time with no coolant circulating .... !

Lannis

[Rough Edge racing]

  Yup, can't run it too long...More of my touch start junk....This one is 39 Ford V8-60 parts I fabricated into a rear engine thing ....Both vehicles actually belong to my race bike rider...


   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XS7e-VnBWY
   

   And a bike

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maClnJXlxTE

[Kev m]

^^^ :1:  ^^^

What I want to know is if You can still wack it with a wrench to get it to turn over?   

Yes, but half the people who brag/complain about probably don't know where to hit it.

[Kev m]

Just ran into this with a friends Honda.

Went on a trip, I am driving. She gets out and goes in the store. She has the fob, and we don't think about it. I drive away to the parking garage, with a dog in the car. Park, and shut off the car. Oops, now I am screwed. Dog in the car, hot sun, can't roll down the windows, and can't start the car. The car is now a massive piece of anchor. I can't leave the car because the dog is in it. What a pain in the rear. Eventually she finds us. It is my understanding that there are a number of deaths now related to people getting out of a running push button car, and later they die from CO poisoning, with the engine continuing to run in the attached garage.

Sounds like a design flaw. All the ones we owned won't let you lock it unless you've got the key and do something like touch the button on the car door.

[screamday]

My wife's 2017 Lincoln MKC has push button start AND push button gear selection. I still can't get used to the gear selector. The car also has something else that annoys me......Ford's Start-Stop technology. Every time you come to a full stop the car engine shuts off. As soon as you release the brake the engine fires back to life......it is almost instantaneous. The more annoying part is that it cannot be permanently disabled. You can disable the function for the current driving session with a button on the dash but it will reset when you turn the car off then on again. From what I've read, all of Fords new vehicles have this technology, including the trucks.  Glad I bought my truck in 2013....pre-aluminum bodies and start-stop insanity.

[John A]

My wife's 2017 Lincoln MKC has push button start AND push button gear selection. I still can't get used to the gear selector. The car also has something else that annoys me......Ford's Start-Stop technology. Every time you come to a full stop the car engine shuts off. As soon as you release the brake the engine fires back to life......it is almost instantaneous. The more annoying part is that it cannot be permanently disabled. You can disable the function for the current driving session with a button on the dash but it will reset when you turn the car off then on again. From what I've read, all of Fords new vehicles have this technology, including the trucks.  Glad I bought my truck in 2013....pre-aluminum bodies and start-stop insanity.

I traded in a '15 Dodge van on a '17 Chrysler Pacifica and I dislike the Pacifica for stuff like the start-stop and the transmission control. The Dodge had a shift selector that you could put it in any gear and it would stay. it worked very well and I used it a lot. The stinking Pacifica has a rotary knob and its all electronically controlled so it upshifts and lugs the engine all the time. I hate that and there is no sport mode. I talked to the local Dodge garage and came away thinking I better not let those idiots try to program more rpms before it shifts. Ill live with it until I get to a dealer that knows more about it than I. it reminds me of a '48 Dodge with a fluid drive but that worked better. with this thing I might as well have a totally automated pile to just sit in. Good thing for motorbikes!

[Kev m]

Yeah I'm not enamored with some of the tech that is being forced upon us by the unintended consequences of regulations.

Start-Stop programming is the poster child for that right now. It's the result of scraping for every last RCH of mpg for EPA fuel economy ratings/Cafe standards.

[Rough Edge racing]

 I just bought my wife a vehicle to replace her well worn 97 Cherokee...Looked at a variety of late model stuff and bought a 09 Ranger 4x4 5 speed...It's like our other three vehicles, base model with a clutch pedal so you tell the vehicle when to shift and not the other way around..

[Gliderjohn]

Would seem to me that the stop - start technology would cause premature wear on the starter and related items.
GliderJohn

[Tom H]

On the stop start cars. Is it the starter that re-starts the engine or something to do with the transmission re-starting the engine?

Maybe it's a hybrid that uses the transmission?

Tom

[pat80flh]

What could go wrong?

   A 2015 Chevy Tahoe towed to our facility, owner down for hip replacement, truck has been sitting several months, through a particularly cold spell. Won't crank, hell the dash won't even light up.  A quick test of the battery (in the yard) reveals a junk/frozen battery. Install a new one,  (in the yard), helps only a little, the dash will now light up, and the doors will lock and unlock with the fob, but still won't crank.  It's hard to find a laptop in the shop with a decent battery, and the laptop, along with the interface module is the only way to communicate with the car.  The laptop stays alive long enough to show there are 28 separate codes in the BCM(body control module), one being an ominous "internal circuit fault".
    This is a push button ignition, the only problem is the BCM controls both the solenoid that locks out the shifter, as well as the little electric motor that runs the steering column lock. Knowing from previous experience that if you just pry the cable from the shift lever underneath, the cable is ruined, I disassemble the steering column shroud, gain access to the upper part of the shift cable, slip the cable off the steering column linkage, which enables me to shift the vehicle into neutral. However, there is no way to unlock the steering column, even if I had a working BCM.
    By this time I'm plenty tired of walking back and forth, so trans in neutral, front end off the ground with a floor jack, and a large push crew, and we're finally at least out of the weather. After dropping BCM and verifying power and ground, I  reload the BCM software, perform a security/key fob relearn, and it runs.  During a short road test, warning message comes on  "replace fob battery".  The final piece of the puzzle.
       3.4 hours labor @$109 per.  New battery, and key fob battery. Simple, cheap, dependable.

[screamday]

On the stop start cars. Is it the starter that re-starts the engine or something to do with the transmission re-starting the engine?

Maybe it's a hybrid that uses the transmission?

Tom

I believe it is the main starter.

Would seem to me that the stop - start technology would cause premature wear on the starter and related items.
GliderJohn

That is my thought on the subject. After we got the car I did a little research and Ford claims that the starter and the associated technology have been over engineered to accommodate the constant stopping/starting....including the battery.  I'm not convinced. Putting a starter through that many cycles....daily, has got to cause more degradation than if it were to not cycle so many times. We'll see, as we put more miles on the car.

[Lannis]

My wife's 2017 Lincoln MKC has push button start AND push button gear selection. I still can't get used to the gear selector. The car also has something else that annoys me......Ford's Start-Stop technology. Every time you come to a full stop the car engine shuts off. As soon as you release the brake the engine fires back to life......it is almost instantaneous. The more annoying part is that it cannot be permanently disabled. You can disable the function for the current driving session with a button on the dash but it will reset when you turn the car off then on again. From what I've read, all of Fords new vehicles have this technology, including the trucks.  Glad I bought my truck in 2013....pre-aluminum bodies and start-stop insanity.

Here's the good thing for folks with these concerns.

MOST people in the country don't care about these things, and just blindly accept every "new thing" that someone thinks up, and they think it has to be that way, even if it moves them farther from control of the car, or makes it possible for whoever is monitoring and controlling the car to do anything they want to/with you AND makes it less and less possible for anyone to even understand their car, much less work on it.   That's fine for most people - they don't care and will buy whatever's new, at whatever price.

However, since hundreds of millions of automobiles have been produced over the years, no matter WHAT era you like, no matter WHAT features you like or don't like, there is a very nice car out there for you that, if maintained and cared for, will last most of us the rest of our lives.

You can buy a mint automobile from every decade of the 20th century, each costing less than a new super-zoot car does today.    If you like a car with the start button in the floor and a flathead six that you can repair with a spoon and an old emery board, you can get one of them.   If you like air-conditioning but no other amenity, you can get that.   If you like carburetors but not fuel injection, you have a huge choice of cars.   If you like a 1950's Ford but want a shoulder harness, you can easily retrofit that.

And even in this over-regulated world we live in, you can still drive original cars with ZERO safety features on the road legally.   Matter of fact, you can drive them cheaper than a new car.    If it didn't have a piece of equipment on it when it was sold, then it isn't required to be inspected for it.   I don't see that changing.

So I'm really not concerned, personally, with Big Brother cars, unfixable technology, or a car that tries to wipe my arse for me.   I just won't ever own one, and I'll continue to drive anywhere I want, in the kind of car I want.

You can too!

Lannis

[Tom]

Throw in that the younger drivers don't know what a key is and what to do with it.     How about a can opener?  P38? or church key?   

Electronic key fobs are fine till the driver forgets about it and goes swimming in the ocean.   

The scene from the original Fight of the Phoenix reminds me of kick starting my HD Recon.  You have to know the drill to kick start it.  I'll bet the guys that designed the bike don't know how to start it because they've never operated one.

Hand cranked/started TR3 that I helped to restore.  Very interesting drill.